mopaineikung.com is it legit?

[Nungali]

Maybe you should reside permanently in 'Buns' then ?

[Iliketurtles]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Maybe you should reside permanently in 'Buns' then ?

 

If all mo pai discussion took place there, I think people here would be a lot happier. 

 

There seems to be a consensus that this mindless bickering is something the community in general hates, so it seems to me only logical to move it to another location.

 

Out of sight (site?), out of mind and all that jazz.

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Iliketurtles

[Nungali]

Thats all fine  .... bye bye then .

[Shadow_self]

On 04/03/2022 at 2:54 PM, Pak_Satrio said:

Either way we are having a pointless conversation because the chance of anyone from outside Indonesia learning Mo Pai in Java is basically zero. Not worth the risk of wasting your time and money. Also it’s extremely disrespectful to even try and join after they’ve repeatedly said that the lineage is closed to foreigners. But just like the concept of last names not being important, respect is also something lost in translation from East to West. Leave them in peace and learn from a lineage that will gladly accept you.

 

It is very important that people understand....the latter is what is leading to the former...I am not the first person to state this.

 

The problem is that foreigners now come with a preconceived status by default. One formed based on the actions of past practitioners that left a very sour taste. It is worrying that few people can see the ramifications for the sect themselves the last time as a result of opening the doors. In short, it is still continuing today

 

The west lacks knowledge of eastern culture in a major way. They also consistently fail to demonstrate values that align with the eastern standard of living. People may think because of globalization that these lines have blurred...but in the case of traditions, they are very much firm.

 

If one, however..had the discernment to understand the full nature of the situation, and  consistently embodied the qualities necessary to prove such a label is unwarranted in their case...they may find that, over an extended period, attitudes might somewhat soften a bit

[Cleansox]

4 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

They seem to like to remove those who pipe up in defense of mo pai quite a bit more than the opposition or at least that is my biased perspective.

Ever done a content analysis of posts, to see if there is something in the content rather than amount that does the trick? 

[Shadao]

On 04/03/2022 at 8:02 AM, Pak_Satrio said:

Well if you knew Indonesia at all (Java specifically) you would know that it’s common for many people to only have one name

Now that's very convenient in my opinion(I mean, I still am of the mind of one person being able to have many names(or changing names through their life, if deemed appropriate by them), same way as they have many "labels", but being known as "JustOne" seems simple...I like simple).

 

Sometimes I think people get too fixated into names, as if they were more akin to titles rather than just as a means for others to be able to differentiate one from the rest when speaking to/of them.

[Iskote]

On 3/2/2022 at 6:55 PM, Gerard said:

 

A delusional Taoist CULT.

 

If you are referring to John Chang's tradition (and not some western 'Mo Pai' money making scam), that is most definitely false. Having experienced in person what some practitioners of a similar type of neigong system can do (receiving very strong shock-like sensations in my body that felt like I was being electrocuted), I can tell you it is most definitely not delusion. 100% for certain it is a legit practice, and since what John Chang had demonstrated in videos in the past was clearly a very similar type of 'neigong' practice to what I have personally experienced, I have no doubt whatsoever the abilities John Chang demonstrated on video were legit. 

 

Such traditions would seem to more likely trace back to some of the practices Bodhidharma/Da Mo was supposed to have originally passed on to Shaolin Temple (according to legend), and although such practices have not been completely lost in China, it does appear to be lost from modern day Shaolin Temple, unless it is just kept completely hidden amongst only certain practitioners there. Such neigong practices do not appear to have connections to any particular "Daoist" tradition that I am aware of, but there has been so much mixing over the centuries, who could really say for sure? 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Iskote

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

47 minutes ago, Iskote said:

If you are referring to John Chang's tradition (and not some western 'Mo PAI' money making scam)

Whenever we talk bad about Mo Pai we really mean western “Mo Pai”. Real Mo Pai deserves respect.

[Iskote]

To address the original question in this thread, IMO, If some random person or persons are claiming to teach part or all of such a neigong system somewhere, where you pretty much must take their word for their 'credentials' and their various other claims, then that is not likely going to lead anywhere good.   If they are claiming to have 'learned' some practices from someone who them self was probably not authorized or qualified to teach such a system, then that should also be a big red warning flag for any sensible person.  

 

Regarding why 'Mo Pai' or similar traditions may not want to teach to foreigners, one merely needs to look at all the nonsense and absolute craziness from Westerners that has gone down on the net and elsewhere regarding 'Mo Pai' to clearly see why such schools/traditions might very well want to avoid teaching to foreigners. The first and foremost most obvious reason would be because many Westerners seem to have little to no concept of eastern views of what is respectful behaviour and attitude towards a tradition or teachers, and no honour for keeping certain things completely private and very low key if asked to do so. Many westerners completely ignore such things and then scratch their head wondering why legit teachers would want to avoid them.    Also, it seems the 'allure' of what some traditions like 'Mo Pai' teach seems to make some people act very crazy as they are blinded by egotistical desires of 'super powers' and 'fame and fortune'. I can't imagine any legitimate teacher or tradition wanting to have anything to do with people like that. Scammers and deluded people focus on luring people like that, however. Such people have already lost before they have even started. 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Iskote

[Shadao]

21 minutes ago, Iskote said:

Regarding why 'Mo Pai' or similar traditions may not want to teach to foreigners, one merely needs to look at all the nonsense and absolute craziness from Westerners

Honestly I'm of the mind that no one needs to have an explanation of "why" for something like this, it can be as simple as just they "not wanting to teach, and that's it".

 

Because sometimes that is a valid answer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

21 minutes ago, Iskote said:

no honour for keeping certain things completely private

Money trumps honor in the view of most westerners, but there are the exceptions.

23 minutes ago, Iskote said:

Also, it seems the 'allure' of what some traditions like 'Mo Pai' teach seems to make some people act very crazy as they are blinded by egotistical desires of 'super powers' and 'fame and fortune'.

Isn't this how it tends to go with practically every other martial arts/system/belief/etc?

 

The promises of being able to surpass their peers through the help of the supernatural/paranormal, that is quite the old tale.

[Iskote]

 

Quote

Honestly I'm of the mind that no one needs to have an explanation of "why" for something like this, it can be as simple as just they "not wanting to teach, and that's it". Because sometimes that is a valid answer ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Hi Shadao. IMO, I think the 'explanation' is obvious in this case, however.   Many Westerners will just not be able to fit well into such a very old style tradition. The world view and customs and behaviours and expectations are just too different. 

 

 

Quote

Money trumps honor in the view of most westerners, but there are the exceptions.

Isn't this how it tends to go with practically every other martial arts/system/belief/etc?

The promises of being able to surpass their peers through the help of the supernatural/paranormal, that is quite the old tale.

 

I think your statement that "Money trumps honor in the view of most westerners" is too much of a generalization, and could just as easily apply to many modern asian people as well.   That is not really related to the point I was making regarding how certain people who are very attracted to 'neigong' practices seem to be interested for all the wrong reasons, and legit teachers would likely avoid such types of people, whether they are from from the east or west. 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Iskote

[Iliketurtles]

If you are asked for money, it's almost assuredly a scam.

 

 

[Shadao]

14 hours ago, Iskote said:

Hi Shadao. IMO, I think the 'explanation' is obvious in this case, however.

Yes, I know that.Just wanted to mention that "because I don't want to" is also a valid choice, that not every denial has to have a reasonable and/or even "explainable" reason.

 

14 hours ago, Iskote said:

 

I think your statement that "Money trumps honor in the view of most westerners" is too much of a generalization, and could just as easily apply to many modern asian people as well.

I disagree(with the first part), as I have seen again and again(in my own country) how greed has made many "forget" their jobs, their responsabilities or even their basic decency and go after more than they need(and more that they should get)...all because they see money as more important than anything else.

 

As for the second part, yeah.Of course this can also apply to Asians too, but here I was talking specifically of westerners, not...easterners?...

 

But I get what you mean.

[zerostao]

It’s just like old times here; we have a mo pai thread in general discussion.

Has this thread offered anything that hasn’t already been teased out in our immense catalog of mo pai threads?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

17 minutes ago, zerostao said:

It’s just like old times here; we have a mo pai thread in general discussion.

Has this thread offered anything that hasn’t already been teased out in our immense catalog of mo pai threads?

We got a letter that John sent to Jim. Not sure if those have been posted in other threads before 

[doc benway]

On 3/2/2022 at 1:14 AM, James22 said:

Has anyone here been accepted to mopaineikung.com, and is it legit? It sounds me good but what to know if it good for me. Anyone have any experience?

 

 

Thanks!

 

Nothing in the West related to Mo Pai is legit.

The lineage holder has made it clear it is not open - it is a dead end for Westerners.

Those teaching the first two levels of a 72 level system in the West have never been authorized to teach and no one in the West has been trained in anything beyond the first 2 or 3 levels.

By definition this makes western Mo Pai illegitimate, IMO.

In what other system would it be advisable to follow the teachings of someone who had received less than 5% of a system's teachings and practices as if they were a lineage holder or master? 

It's like learning a single stance from the Wing Chun kung fu system and expecting to magically extrapolate and master the rest of the art without any guidance or information about any other technique from the system on one's own.

If that's your idea of sounding good, go for it!

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I like buns but I'm trying to cut down.

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, zerostao said:

It’s just like old times here; we have a mo pai thread in general discussion.

Has this thread offered anything that hasn’t already been teased out in our immense catalog of mo pai threads?

Yup.  Good old humans, doing what humans do...

 

What's that old definition of insanity again?

 

Repeating the same action over and over and... expecting a different result?

[Earl Grey]

I just woke up a few minutes ago, and I am already tired again after reading this. 

[Iliketurtles]

On 3/11/2022 at 3:56 PM, Pak_Satrio said:

Whenever we talk bad about Mo Pai we really mean western “Mo Pai”. Real Mo Pai deserves respect.

 

Ultimately there is no such animal.

 

There is only what John taught, and not what John taught.  

 

In the "west" we have all sorts of characters, like Jeff McDuffie, Shifu Lin AKA David Micah Naziri, Shifu Rel aka Rizzy Rel, James Van Gelder, David Lee the guy who is now in control of Jim's old email and social media accounts who fused yin and yang and can now shoot fireballs, Elijah Wilson, Lucas Huang, and tons of other people who offer practices which bear absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to what John taught at all but they all still operate under the banner of Mo Pai.  

 

Each year the list of nonsense being called Mo Pai grows and grows.

 

I agree with you that any edited and altered practice which is marketed as Mo Pai deserves absolutely zero respect. 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Iliketurtles

[Iliketurtles]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

Nothing in the West related to Mo Pai is legit.

The lineage holder has made it clear it is not open - it is a dead end for Westerners.

Those teaching the first two levels of a 72 level system in the West have never been authorized to teach and no one in the West has been trained in anything beyond the first 2 or 3 levels.

By definition this makes western Mo Pai illegitimate, IMO.

In what other system would it be advisable to follow the teachings of someone who had received less than 5% of a system's teachings and practices as if they were a lineage holder or master? 

It's like learning a single stance from the Wing Chun kung fu system and expecting to magically extrapolate and master the rest of the art without any guidance or information about any other technique from the system on one's own.

If that's your idea of sounding good, go for it!

 

 

 

"If that's your idea of sounding good, go for it!"

 

I think for a lot of people it's not that it sounds good, so much as they are unable to locate any reasonable facsimile.

 

There are lots of reviews and testimonials of other systems which claim a lot of things, but that isn't enough for a lot of people because if you listen to these testimonials they will have you believing that loneman pai is the most advanced system ever created.

 

If testimonials are enough loneman pai is the best system there ever was.

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

I think for a lot of people it's not that it sounds good, so much as they are unable to locate any reasonable facsimile.

 

There are lots of reviews and testimonials of other systems which claim a lot of things, but that isn't enough for a lot of people because if you listen to these testimonials they will have you believing that loneman pai is the most advanced system ever created.

 

If testimonials are enough loneman pai is the best system there ever was.

 

 

It is not so much about locating alternatives as it is about actually putting time into something before being allowed to see whats "inside the door". Thinking you are entitled to, or worthy of a demonstration prior to beginning practice is the first fallacy....no real teacher is lucky to have you as a student...it is and will always be vice versa.

 

And the thing is...the onus is on you to prove you are worthy

 

Not showing students who have such an attitude these kind of demonstrations, is literally a built in security feature in lineages, to protect the teachings from people who quite frankly, should not have access to them

 

If your group is really so focused on breaking the reincarnation cycle and not coming back (MPG spent enough time going on about that in his time here, see below) You'd be better suited to pursuing a Tibetan Buddhism lineage who is willing to teach you the actual methods.

 

 

 

However if you think that demonstrations are a prerequisite to you joining a school.... I think you'll need to prepare to bang your head against the wall for the rest of your days...people simply aren't going to be showing off this kind of thing to you so that you can be their student.

 

[Nungali]

So , they believe 'consciousness'  survives death   and consciousness in the living is contained within the skull  .....   generated by ... the brain ? 

 

And they dont really need that hole in the head ..... the Phowa practice ensures consciousness survives death, the hole is a symbol of the practice accomplished  ..... and then stick a bit of unsterilised grass down in there .

 

I think I'd rather have a piece of wire up the arse . 

 

....  maybe a lot was  'lost in translation ' .

[Iliketurtles]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

It is not so much about locating alternatives as it is about actually putting time into something before being allowed to see whats "inside the door". Thinking you are entitled to, or worthy of a demonstration prior to beginning practice is the first fallacy....no real teacher is lucky to have you as a student...it is and will always be vice versa.

 

And the thing is...the onus is on you to prove you are worthy

 

Not showing students who have such an attitude these kind of demonstrations, is literally a built in security feature in lineages, to protect the teachings from people who quite frankly, should not have access to them

 

If your group is really so focused on breaking the reincarnation cycle and not coming back (MPG spent enough time going on about that in his time here, see below) You'd be better suited to pursuing a Tibetan Buddhism lineage who is willing to teach you the actual methods.

 

 

 

However if you think that demonstrations are a prerequisite to you joining a school.... I think you'll need to prepare to bang your head against the wall for the rest of your days...people simply aren't going to be showing off this kind of thing to you so that you can be their student.

 

 

It's a two-way street, there is no requirement for teachers to demonstrate anything.  There's also no requirement for prospective students to accept on faith that a school leads anywhere or does anything or that testimonials of the teacher or system are accurate and valid.

 

I think some people may be interested in breaking the cycle of reincarnation but certainly not all people have that as a goal especially not all people who are interested in mo pai. 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Iliketurtles said:

 

It's a two-way street, there is no requirement for teachers to demonstrate anything.  There's also no requirement for prospective students to accept on faith that a school leads anywhere or does anything or that testimonials of the teacher or system are accurate and valid.

 

I think some people may be interested in breaking the cycle of reincarnation but certainly not all people have that as a goal especially not all people who are interested in mo pai. 

 

Really it isn't and here is why. A teacher does not need you, so the street is moreso one way in that regard. The other major fallacy here is the false dichotomy...IE blind faith vs blind rejection....There is a happy medium here which is curious exploration....Its how must people stumble onto something "real" Ask any person who's found a "real" practice...they probably waded through several bad, or perhaps even nonsensical ones first.

 

If you keep your eyes and ears open you should be able to decipher genuine practice from the false ones. One such example being the YJJ. There are thousands of nonsensical practices and forms out there claiming to be YJJ...but actual YJJ (the thing that leads electrical qi by the way)...is a set of principles embedded into a practice....you'll know when you're doing it whether its real or not because there are clear signs....these are not subtle nor are they imagined.

 

So the reality is that it isn't so much there are no schools out there with real methods...no teachers with skill....your group is unfortunately  placing itself on a pedestal, and demanding something that there is no real incentive nor rational for any teacher to provide you with...does that make sense?

 

Now if they needed you, that would be different...but the fact that they do not....well that is why you find yourself stuck on the eternal hamster wheel of looking for something you cannot find

 

Hmmm...So MPG has amended the goals of the organization now...interesting....let me guess...negative entropy, seeds, husks, trees..and so forth