Zhan Zhuang - Grounded or Ungrounded

[awaken]

我說的兩小時，是加上『至少』的，但是就是有人誤會成『剛好兩小時』，完全忽略了『至少』at least，這是很不應該的誤會，甚至我覺得有『可惡』的成分在裡面

 

為什麼會講兩小時，是因為我要告訴你，你必須要抽出足夠的時間來讓身體練透，當然如果你一天二十四小時都能練，那是最好的。

 

但是如果一個資深的練習者，即使五分鐘，也可以短暫的練習出烏肝。

 

When I said two hours, I added "at least", but some people misunderstood it as "exactly two hours" and completely ignored "at least". ingredients in it

The reason why I talk about two hours is because I want to tell you that you have to make enough time for your body to practice thoroughly. Of course, if you can practice 24 hours a day, that is the best.

But if an experienced practitioner, even five minutes, can practice black liver for a short time.

[awaken]

有些人提到有沒有進入先天的辦法，而有些人拒絕回答，我跟想進入先天氣的人說，你不用問這些練搬運法的人，他們不知道什麼是先天氣，搬運法也練不出先天氣，所以不用耗費力氣去問這些人。

 

丹經說得非常清楚，進入先天氣的辦法很簡單，就是陰陽反覆，只要掌握陰陽反覆的原理，你就能很容易的練出先天氣。

 

而陰陽反覆的一個很大的原則，就是『練透』，這也就是我建議你『至少』要準備兩小時的時間的原因，因為沒有足夠的時間，是沒辦法練透的。

 

就像煮飯需要足夠的時間，飯才能熟透一樣，這是同樣的原理，就像春夏秋冬需要一整年的時間來反覆，丹道就是道法自然，不用去相信那些販賣密法，要求你付出高額學費的人。

 

Some people mentioned whether there is a way to enter the innate, and some people refused to answer. I said to those who want to enter the innate, you don't need to ask these people who practice the transfer method, they don't know what the innate is, and they can't practice the transfer method. The weather is out, so don't bother to ask these people.

The Dan Jing makes it very clear that the way to enter the innate weather is very simple, that is, the repetition of yin and yang. As long as you master the principle of the repetition of yin and yang, you can easily practice the innate weather.

And a big principle of yin and yang repetition is "practice thoroughly", which is why I suggest you prepare for "at least" two hours, because there is no way to practice thoroughly without enough time.

Just as it takes enough time to cook rice, it is the same principle, just like spring, summer, autumn and winter need a whole year to repeat, Dan Dao is Dao Dharma and naturally, you don't need to believe those selling secret methods, Someone who asks you to pay high tuition fees.

[awaken]

更正我前面提到的感謝，不是月牙，應該是liminal_luke，感謝你對丹道真相所發的正義之言。

 

Correct the thanks I mentioned earlier, not crescent moon, it should be liminal_luke, thank you for your righteous words to the truth of Dan Dao.

Edited March 17, 2022 by awaken

[awaken]

有人說，當說的話不是對方想要的，對方是不會想要聽的。關於這一點，我當然知道，我面對過很多搬運法的人，搬運法的人很少有足夠的能力可以接受無為法，所以我的目標完全不是放在這些已經把搬運法放在腦袋裡，根深蒂固的人，我的目標是放在還沒被搬運法誤導的初學者。

 

我的學生裡面，也有一些人原本練的是搬運法，這些是少數能夠從搬運法走出來的人，但是他們非常的辛苦，因為搬運法長期的教學，就是把注意力放在氣感，所以他們要練出『演化』的能力，會比初學者更加辛苦，而且很容易半途就練錯，必須要經常矯正。

Some people say that when what is said is not what the other party wants, the other party will not want to hear it. Regarding this, of course I know that I have faced a lot of people who have moved the law, and few people who have moved the law have enough ability to accept the law of inaction, so my goal is not to put the moving method in the head at all. , ingrained people, my goal is to place beginners who have not been misled by the handling method.

Among my students, there are also some people who originally practiced the moving method. These are the few people who can get out of the moving method, but they are very hard. Because the long-term teaching of the moving method is to focus on the sense of breath, so To develop the ability of "evolution", it will be more difficult for them than beginners, and it is easy to make mistakes halfway, and they must be corrected frequently.

Edited March 17, 2022 by awaken

[awaken]

我承認很多人用錯誤的方式練自發功，例如過度強化動作，加上許多不必要的想法等等，並且把自發功練到沒動作就練不下去了，這兩點確實是自發功的問題，但是我還是必須要強調的是，我不是教自發功的老師，我是教丹道的老師，『如實觀』和『練透』是非常重要的兩個原則，這些練自發功的人因為沒有掌握這兩個原則，因此導向錯誤的結果，這是事實，我不會否認有這樣的事實。

 

但是我也同樣跟搬運法的練習者說，搬運法也同樣導向錯誤的結果，搬運法阻擋了演化的發生，將練習限制在氣感的範圍，並且以氣感範圍的專有名詞來誤導丹道的內容。

 

錯誤的自發功練法，錯的地方是『放縱』慾望。

 

錯誤的搬運法練法，錯的地方是『控制』氣感。

 

兩者同樣都是錯誤的道路，五十步笑百步，都是同樣的錯誤。

 

I admit that many people practice Spontaneous Gong in the wrong way, such as over-strengthening the movements, adding a lot of unnecessary thoughts, etc., and practicing Spontaneous Gong until there is no movement, it is impossible to practice. These two points are indeed problems of Spontaneous Gong , but I still have to emphasize that I am not a teacher who teaches spontaneous gong, I am a teacher of alchemy. "Seeing the truth" and "practicing thoroughly" are two very important principles. Those who practice spontaneous gong because of It is a fact that failure to grasp these two principles leads to wrong results, and I will not deny that there is such a fact.

But I also told the practitioners of the transfer method that the transfer method also leads to wrong results. The transfer method prevents the evolution from happening, limits the practice to the scope of qi sense, and misleads Dan with the proper term for the scope of qi sense. content of the Tao.

The wrong way to practice spontaneous gong, the wrong place is to "indulge" desire.

The wrong way to carry the method, the wrong place is to "control" the sense of qi.

Both are equally wrong paths, fifty steps and a hundred steps are the same mistakes.

 

『中道』和『中觀』是非常重要的心理原則，這是屬於性功的範圍，丹道是性命雙修，性功是正確的方向，沒有正確的方向，任何目標性的密法，都會導向錯誤的結果。

 

"Middle Way" and "Middle Way" are very important psychological principles, which belong to the scope of sexual energy. Dan Dao is the dual cultivation of life and life. Sexual energy is the correct direction. There is no correct direction. lead to wrong results.

 

補充說明，中道和中觀竟然出現相同的英文翻譯，這個該怎麼翻譯，我不知道。

 

In addition, the same English translation appears in the middle way and the middle way. I don't know how to translate this.

Edited March 17, 2022 by awaken

[Earl Grey]

31 minutes ago, awaken said:

有人提到有人利用自發功在開氣功診所，這一點我不清楚怎麼回事，我也不知道這個人到底是誰，我只知道，你們似乎把我和那個人畫上等號，你們用一種有色眼鏡在看我，在攻擊我，這是我看到的事實。

 

我沒有教自發功，我也沒有利用自發功在開氣功診所，我做的事情，就是在ＱＱ開班，教人如何從自發功導向丹道，而在這裡，我所做的，就是澄清，讓初學者知道，兩個極端所練出來的現象，都是錯的，不管是刻意引發自發功，或者刻意操控氣感成為小周天。

 

Someone mentioned that someone was using spontaneous gong to open a qigong clinic. I don't know what's going on. I don't know who this person is. All I know is that you seem to equate me with that person. The tinted glasses are looking at me and attacking me, this is what I see.

I didn't teach Spontaneous Gong, and I didn't use Spontaneous Gong to open a qigong clinic. What I did was to open a class in QQ to teach people how to lead from Spontaneous Gong to Dan Dao. Here, what I did was to clarify, Let beginners know that the phenomena produced by the two extremes are wrong, whether it is deliberately triggering spontaneous gong, or deliberately manipulating the sense of qi to become a small Zhoutian.

 

How about asking others to clarify what they mean instead of assuming and going into passive-aggression instead?

 

What I was saying is that someone opened a qigong clinic and promoted spontaneous practice without recognizing that it can be dangerous without guidance.

 

What YOU are saying is that I'm attacking you--I left you way back on the other side of the river because of your insults.

[awaken]

 

欲加之罪，何患無辭
你總能在雞蛋裡面挑到骨頭的

 

If you want to add a crime, why not worry
You can always pick a bone in an egg

 

 

[Earl Grey]

3 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

欲加之罪，何患無辭
你總能在雞蛋裡面挑到骨頭的

 

If you want to add a crime, why not worry
You can always pick a bone in an egg

 

 

You got warned not to insult and here you are doing it again…

[awaken]

我不認為自發功危險，危險的是人，錯誤的指導才是危險

 

不管這個指導者是自發功或者搬運法，同樣的危險

 

而搬運法的危險，更甚於自發功，我在ＱＱ的環境當中，已經有很多中國人對於此點有所覺醒，因為中國很多人都在研讀文言文，他們可以看得出來，無為法是非常重要的核心精神，甚至無為兩字，是放在廟堂皇宮之上的

 

指導者必須根據經典，有經典根據，才不會把初學者導向錯誤的方向

 

I don't think spontaneous work is dangerous, it is people who are dangerous, and wrong guidance is the danger

No matter if the guide is spontaneous work or transfer method, the same danger

The danger of carrying the law is even more than the spontaneous practice. I have been in the QQ environment, and many Chinese people have been awakened to this point, because many people in China are studying classical Chinese, and they can see that the law of inaction is very important. The important core spirit, even the word inaction, is placed above the temple and the palace.

Instructors must follow the classics and have the basis of classics, so as not to lead beginners in the wrong direction

 

當你在說自發功危險的時候，我認為你的措辭是錯誤的，因為自發功並不危險，對慾念的追求，才是錯誤的根源

 

When you say that spontaneous work is dangerous, I think your wording is wrong, because spontaneous work is not dangerous, the pursuit of desire is the root of the error

[awaken]

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

You got warned not to insult and here you are doing it again…

 

我並沒有污辱你，你如果要這樣想，我也沒辦法

 

I didn't insult you, if you want to think like this, I can't help it

 

 

[zerostao]

Thread will reopen soon.

[zerostao]

On 3/15/2022 at 9:01 AM, freeform said:

I don’t know the official rules of the forum - but constantly calling people ‘stupid’ and advising someone who’s got deviation issues to do two hours of zifagong wouldn’t sit well with me if I was running the forum.

None of us "run the forum" 

The thread is under review by the mod team.

[zerostao]

On 3/17/2022 at 7:59 AM, zerostao said:

Thread will reopen soon.

 

Done. 

[freeform]

It’s nice to see English translations under @awaken’s posts now. Just want to say that I appreciate that you took that step  

[Gerard]

Pointless. It reminds me of:

 

"The story of the Tower of Babel explains the origins of the multiplicity of languages. God was concerned that humans had blasphemed by building the tower to avoid a second flood so God brought into existence multiple languages. Thus, humans were divided into linguistic groups, unable to understand one another."

 

All for one and one for all, united we stand divided we fall.

 

~Alexandre Dumas (The Three Musketeers)

 

ENGLISH FOR ALL, as this the official language for ALL here in this forum. 

 

 

[Sahaja]

Interesting to see all the energy in the comments about spontaneous movement. My understanding and experience  of it Is that it’s a natural consequence of internal work and relatively simple to trigger. I am surprised it’s not more in the public sphere. When I first experienced it I didnt realize how common it was (or that it had a name) and I didn’t have a teacher available that could explain it in any specific way or help me navigate it. On the plus side this did allow me to experience it without many preconceived ideas about it.
 

I can see where it excites people when they initially experience this and I can see how it would be possible for a misinformed or abusive teacher to take advantage of this. I can also see how someone could become habituated to it and not let go of it when the time comes.  Personally I think the secrecy/lack of information/lack of proper context around it actually makes these errors and abuses more likely. Based on my experience of it I can see where it can be a useful tool in the early stages of the training process. It can make the training much more tangible, more real. For me it got me to search for new training to help me better understand it and it gave direct feedback on my posture, use of awareness, sinking, use of mudras/hand positions , breathing, etc.that turned out to be quite useful and reinforcing. Perhaps my experience of it has been more positive or more benign than others  - all the more reason for more openness and information to be made available on this topic.

[Bindi]

On 13/3/2022 at 9:42 PM, Shadow_self said:

 

@almaxyTake heed of what@freeformis saying...This is the actual reality of the matter

 

While it is true that excess Yin Qi needs to be drawn from the enviornment..

 

 

Is this true though, that (excess) Yin Qi needs to be drawn from the environment? Why is that a given? 

 

Quote

 

The analogies of essences, pneumas and salivary juices with waidan end where those with neidan begin: the adept nourishes himself and his gods not through the ingestion of ‘external’ substances, but through components of his own inner body; he finds the vital ingredients within himself, and their ingestion takes place internally.

page 17 http://fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Early_Daoist_Meditation.pdf

 

 

On 13/3/2022 at 9:42 PM, Shadow_self said:

..it is the sequencing that is of critical importance, and what seems to have been lost in translation

 

• First you need to activate (or awaken the LDT)
• You then need to fully strengthen and consolidate the existing Yin field in your body first (The LDT).
• Once this has been achieved, then it can contain Yang Qi...it cannot happen before that...
• Once Yang Qi has reached Critical mass...then you can worry about how to gather excess Yin Qi....there is no point in even thinking about before that

Think about how the law of attraction regarding Yin and Yang works....

 

[Shadow_self]

22 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Is this true though, that (excess) Yin Qi needs to be drawn from the environment? Why is that a given? 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it is true

 

It has to do with the way Yin and Yang Qi work....You cannot build extra Yin Qi within the body

 

Also, you just quoted a text where the author thinks that all the practices relating to neidan are visualisations...I would caution you from taking that seriously

[Bindi]

38 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Yes, it is true

 

It has to do with the way Yin and Yang Qi work....You cannot build extra Yin Qi within the body

 

Also, you just quoted a text where the author thinks that all the practices relating to neidan are visualisations...I would caution you from taking that seriously

 

Are you equating yin qi with physical matter maybe? I really have no idea why else you would be so sure of this, and it probably goes without saying that I perceive yin qi as a subtle energy that can only be developed via subtle energy methods. 
 

The text is very good IMO for an historical appreciation of the roots of internal alchemy and  neidan, it remains to discover whether progress in ideas led to a greater understanding of the nature of Yin and Yang qi or a slow crumbling of what was once complete. 

[Shadow_self]

12 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Are you equating yin qi with physical matter maybe? I really have no idea why else you would be so sure of this, and it probably goes without saying that I perceive yin qi as a subtle energy that can only be developed via subtle energy methods. 
 

The text is very good IMO for an historical appreciation of the roots of internal alchemy and  neidan, it remains to discover whether progress in ideas led to a greater understanding of the nature of Yin and Yang qi or a slow crumbling of what was once complete. 

 

I'm not equating it with physical matter, nor do I have any idea why you would suggest that

 

You don't develop Yin via methods...you develop Yang...and as you do, at a certain point you will be able to gather excess Yin qi due to the excess Yang...before that point you only work with what is already in your body...To put it bluntly, you cannot generate Yin Qi...you can only gather it

 

I rate almost all academic translations of Daoist practices as poor...the consistent misrepresentation of practices and misunderstanding is enough for me to distance myself from them....There are a few worth looking at...this does not appear to be one of them

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I'm not equating it with physical matter, nor do I have any idea why you would suggest that

 

 

Yin Qi was associated with semen and menstrual blood in a previous thread somewhere, on a deeper level Yin Qi was the energy that went into making semen and menstrual blood I seem to recall, I’m just curious about what you think comes from external sources that might affect this energy. I have no idea so I was just guessing really and a lot of people seem to think it revolves around semen and menstrual blood. 

 

Quote

 

You don't develop Yin via methods...you develop Yang...and as you do, at a certain point you will be able to gather excess Yin qi due to the excess Yang...before that point you only work with what is already in your body...To put it bluntly, you cannot generate Yin Qi...you can only gather it

 

I am just starting to get a handle on my belief system, it seems to fall somewhere between external alchemy and neidan in time, so what you say above has very little relation to my understanding. For me there is a yin qi component in every dantian, as highly valued as the yang qi component in every dantian, and it has nothing at all to do with semen or menstrual blood even in the lower dantian. Still, I’d like to hear more about what Neidanists  believe about Yin Qi if anyone would be willing to tell me. 
 

Even better I’d like to talk to someone who recognises the terms I have come across, like Mother Father King Queen left right, but there don’t seem to be any of those, so neidanists are my next best thing. 

 

Quote

I rate almost all academic translations of Daoist practices as poor...the consistent misrepresentation of practices and misunderstanding is enough for me to distance myself from them....There are a few worth looking at...this does not appear to be one of them

 

I’m interested in the history, not in learning neidan, though I thought Pregadio was generally respected in the neidan field. God knows I could be wrong of course, I reserve the right to be wrong at least once a day  

 

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Bindi

[Michael Sternbach]

Any form of qi is immaterial, however, it may be bound to a physical carrier.

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Quote

Yin Qi was associated with semen and menstrual blood in a previous thread somewhere, on a deeper level Yin Qi was the energy that went into making semen and menstrual blood I seem to recall, I’m just curious about what you think comes from external sources that might affect this energy. I have no idea so I was just guessing really and a lot of people seem to think it revolves around semen and menstrual blood. 

This is the Yin component of Jing you are thinking of

 

Quote

I am just starting to get a handle on my belief system, it seems to fall somewhere between external alchemy and neidan in time, so what you say above has very little relation to my understanding. For me there is a yin qi component in every dantian, as highly valued as the yang qi component in every dantian, and it has nothing at all to do with semen or menstrual blood even in the lower dantian. Still, I’d like to hear more about what Neidanists  believe about Yin Qi if anyone would be willing to tell me.

 

The Lower Dan tien is a Yin field...early stages of nei gong are re-consolidating this field

 

Within that field you can store up Yang Qi once it is consolidated and the other correct qualities are developed

 

Build enough of that, and you can start to pull excess Yin Qi from the environment into it also if you know how

 

Quote

I’m interested in the history, not in learning neidan, though I thought Pregadio was generally respected in the neidan field. God knows I could be wrong of course, I reserve the right to be wrong at least once a day  

 

Most of them are good for a historical overview....it is when they start to talk about technical aspects that they really fall down...because interpretation seems to muddy the perception

Edited March 23, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Bindi]

31 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

This is the Yin component of Jing you are thinking of

 

 

True, I remembered it was Jing Qi a little while ago but left my post as it was. 

 

Quote

 

 

The Lower Dan tien is a Yin field...early stages of nei gong are re-consolidating this field

 

Within that field you can store up Yang Qi once it is consolidated and the other correct qualities are developed

 

Does this have anything to do with a cauldron being filled with water and a fire underneath it? 

 

Quote

 

Build enough of that, and you can start to pull excess Yin Qi from the environment into it also if you know how

 

Does excess yin qi mean excess in the environment, or you need excess yin qi in your system at a certain point? Is environmental Yin Qi like tree energy, ground energy etc? 

 

Quote

 

Most of them are good for a historical overview....it is when they start to talk about technical aspects that they really fall down...because interpretation seems to muddy the perception

Yes, I’m only after the historical overview in this case. 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Bindi

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Build enough of that, and you can start to pull excess Yin Qi from the environment into it also if you know how

Just to say that in my own training we don’t need pull anything in from outside. 

Basically following the age old rule:

 

As above, so below.

 

Meaning that we have a pure source of Yin qi internally.

 

Aligning to the earth’s yin qi field can, indeed assist in tapping this internal field. Particularly in the beginning stages.

 

In Longmen lineages there’s a strong emphasis of working with trees in preparation for alchemical practice… this also works to align oneself to the earths yin field.