Zhan Zhuang - Grounded or Ungrounded

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

Just to say that in my own training we don’t need pull anything in from outside. 

Basically following the age old rule:

 

As above, so below.

 

Meaning that we have a pure source of Yin qi internally.

 

 

Absolutely.

 

1 minute ago, freeform said:

 

Aligning to the earth’s yin qi field can, indeed assist in tapping this internal field. Particularly in the beginning stages.

 

In Longmen lineages there’s a strong emphasis of working with trees in preparation for alchemical practice… this also works to align oneself to the earths yin field.

Agreed, one can bring in tree energy (for instance) which might make certain things happen quicker, but isn’t fundamentally necessary. 

[freeform]

Just now, Bindi said:

isn’t fundamentally necessary

Yeah

 

I guess an argument can be made that as modern people we need more connection to Yin (than past generations) - so it may well be the case that without exposure to yin fields in nature we simply can’t find that quality internally.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Yin Qi was associated with semen and menstrual blood in a previous thread somewhere, on a deeper level Yin Qi was the energy that went into making semen and menstrual blood I seem to recall, I’m just curious about what you think comes from external sources that might affect this energy. I have no idea so I was just guessing really and a lot of people seem to think it revolves around semen and menstrual blood. 

 

 

I am just starting to get a handle on my belief system, it seems to fall somewhere between external alchemy and neidan in time, so what you say above has very little relation to my understanding.

 

Hi Bindi

 

What's your definition of external Alchemy?

 

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

For me there is a yin qi component in every dantian, as highly valued as the yang qi component in every dantian, and it has nothing at all to do with semen or menstrual blood even in the lower dantian. Still, I’d like to hear more about what Neidanists  believe about Yin Qi if anyone would be willing to tell me. 
 

Even better I’d like to talk to someone who recognises the terms I have come across, like Mother Father King Queen left right, but there don’t seem to be any of those, so neidanists are my next best thing. 

 

I’m interested in the history, not in learning neidan, though I thought Pregadio was generally respected in the neidan field. God knows I could be wrong of course, I reserve the right to be wrong at least once a day  

 

 

 

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Hi Bindi

 

What's your definition of external Alchemy?

 

 

Hi Michael, I’m specifically thinking of Chinese external alchemy which is putting physical substances into actual crucibles and heating them on a real stove, along with various ritual things to say or do, plus ritual and preordained time frames for when to do these things. 
 

I have long considered the possibility that inner alchemy actually came first via a realised Chinese ‘master’, around 300 CE or so, and images from his/her inner alchemy were at some point misunderstood by students of this putative master (once or twice removed) to be images of external events. When others came along who preferred to follow an inner truth, then these somewhat garbled external rituals were again re-set, this time back to internal. 
 

 

[freeform]

33 minutes ago, Bindi said:

have long considered the possibility that inner alchemy actually came first via a realised Chinese ‘master’, around 300 CE or so, and images from his/her inner alchemy were at some point misunderstood

Just wanted to touch on this because it’s something I’ve discussed with my teachers.

 

As I understand it, there are several ways for such things to occur.

 

One is through the Hun. Basically I believe that it’s similar to your particular way of exploration, @Bindi. This is when the immortal aspect of your soul will transfer information from past/future lives or from a collective consciousness.

 

This info comes about in the form of dreams, visions, coincidences, ‘aha moments’, premonitions, intuition and so on. The information filters through the depths of the unconscious to the subconscious and eventually to the conscious ‘ordinary’ mind.

 

The fact that it filters back through in this way means that it’s ‘imperfect’ in that it picks up various influences as it comes through.

 

Another way is through what I’d call ‘direct insight’.

 

This comes in a split second and ‘unfiltered’. There’s no imagery, visions or anything that needs unpacking or making sense of. It comes as an immediate, direct insight that’s complete and ‘perfect’.

 

That’s what’s interesting about direct insight - that it doesn’t come with a mental framework. In one moment,  you get a complete understanding of the process of creation and what has then been codified into ‘Chinese medicine’ for example.

 

It actually then takes time to translate this insight into a conceptual model that can be communicated to others. (Which is when it collects ‘imperfections’).

 

Direct insight is extremely rare. But it seems that many of the most important systems of cultivation and ways of understanding (Yi Jing for example) come in this way.

 

Then it’s up to the master, or his disciples to help translate it into a mental model that can be made sense of for others. With all the fallibility involved in that.

 

I believe that’s how much of what we call internal alchemy came to us.

External Alchemy must’ve been like the state of the art science at the time - a conceptual model with the level of nuance and granularity necessary to make understanding and communicating these things possible.

 

The Hun approach is a little different. It comes incomplete, it comes as symbols and metaphors. It’s like you’re able to overhear a message that you only partially understand - but with enough attention you can piece things together to form a coherent model that makes sense.

 

I believe the majority of (genuine) psychics have this Hun level access.

 

The indigenous aboriginal culture in Australia, as well as a few other ‘shamanic’ cultures, I believe, had a very strong connection to this level of inner work.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Hi Michael, I’m specifically thinking of Chinese external alchemy which is putting physical substances into actual crucibles and heating them on a real stove, along with various ritual things to say or do, plus ritual and preordained time frames for when to do these things. 
 

I have long considered the possibility that inner alchemy actually came first via a realised Chinese ‘master’, around 300 CE or so, and images from his/her inner alchemy were at some point misunderstood by students of this putative master (once or twice removed) to be images of external events. When others came along who preferred to follow an inner truth, then these somewhat garbled external rituals were again re-set, this time back to internal. 
 

 

 

Only this begs the question why this realised 'master' introduced terms evidently taken out of chemistry (such as dantien meaning 'cinnabar field').

 

Interestingly, a similar debate revolves around Occidental Alchemy, with some contemporary historians insisting that this occult science actually boils down (:D) to simple laboratory processes. Notwithstanding the fact that already the earliest extant texts (from the same epoch you indicated in regard to Chinese Alchemy) are full of references to Hellenistic metaphysics and natural philosophy. A trend that continued with Medieval European and Renaissance writers on the topic frequently employing Christian as well as earlier Pagan mythological symbols.

 

The current trend among academic researchers to  emphasize Alchemy's external side could be seen as a counter poise to its previous one-sidedly psycho-spiritual interpretation by psychologists like Silberer and Jung.

 

However, according to my personal research, both views are equally adequate and complementary rather than contradictory. What seems so difficult to understand for the modern mind is that the ancient sciences were all based on a model of the cosmos that holistically integrated the physical with the metaphysical.

 

As an aside, I am currently working on a book about this very topic, intended for publication in the course of this year. While it focusses on the Occidental tradition, its essential thesis is fully applicable to Daoist natural philosophy and Chinese Alchemy as well.

 

I am writing this book because I believe that aforesaid kind of holistic perspective needs to be reestablished in modern culture in order to bridge the gap between science and religion, or materialism and spirituality. Although in a revised version, of course, that fully takes into account the vast increase in knowledge from Copernicus right up to most recent times.

 

In absence of such an integrated model, it is quite understandable that contemporary onlookers tend towards more of a one-sided interpretation of the ancient sciences, though. Anyway, in light of this statement:

 

I am just starting to get a handle on my belief system, it seems to fall somewhere between external alchemy and neidan in time ...

 

I suppose your views regarding what external Alchemy is all about may have shifted in the meantime?

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Just to say that in my own training we don’t need pull anything in from outside. 

Basically following the age old rule:

 

As above, so below.

 

Meaning that we have a pure source of Yin qi internally.

 

Aligning to the earth’s yin qi field can, indeed assist in tapping this internal field. Particularly in the beginning stages.

 

In Longmen lineages there’s a strong emphasis of working with trees in preparation for alchemical practice… this also works to align oneself to the earths yin field.

 

I can only mention it in the terms that is was explained to me.

 

It could be that this is a simpler mental model for those starting out and that as time goes on it is explained further.

 

However...It is just as likely that one resonates with the Yin field, much like a tuning fork in order to generate extra Yin from the mentioned internal source...Like I said am not certain

 

Two quotes below here kind of summarize the line of thinking

 

Quote

One of the key phrases for Nei Gong is to ‘draw in Qi from
the planet’; this force is called Di Qi () or Earth Qi. What is implied is
that when we open up the ‘surging spring’ point, it enables a channel
to open that then draws energy up from the planet into the body.
This energy is then used as a kind of fuel for initiating the awakening
of the lower Dan Tian. This is a more than adequate explanation for
what is taking place, as it gives newcomers to the practices a model
they can work with. I generally tell most of my new students the
same thing, as it is simple, based in tradition and gives them a
working understanding of what they are doing; but it’s actually not
completely accurate.

 ACGTDNG

 

Quote

To build ‘extra’ Yang Qi, we need to absorb the awareness into the Huang
and stabilise the mind there. This will then, in turn, help the Huang to become a
kind of factory for the production of Yang Qi as discussed above. This is
difficult but possible if we bring our practice to a high enough level. Yin Qi does
not work like this; to build ‘extra’ Yin Qi is impossible through any method or
practice. Existing ‘Yin Qi practices’ always work with the inherent levels of Yin
Qi we already have within our body. This means that we need to find another
method for drawing in ‘extra’ Yin Qi.
We do this by building Yang Qi and drawing it into the field of the lower
Dan Tian. Under the natural law of attraction, the build-up of Yang Qi will reach
a point of critical mass and so Yin Qi will be drawn into the Dan Tian space as
well. This Qi is derived from the environment and is led as a natural response to
the level of Yang Qi you have built

ACGTDNG

 

Apart from that I cant say much more, but would love to hear your opinion on the matter

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

True, I remembered it was Jing Qi a little while ago but left my post as it was. 

 

 

Does this have anything to do with a cauldron being filled with water and a fire underneath it? 

 

 

Does excess yin qi mean excess in the environment, or you need excess yin qi in your system at a certain point? Is environmental Yin Qi like tree energy, ground energy etc? 

 

Yes, I’m only after the historical overview in this case. 

 

I think the previous post I made covers it

 

As for the cauldron...Thats generally speaking the LDT (Definately in my practice)...

 

There are some other systems that place it at the perineum I think..Id need to double check though

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, freeform said:

Just wanted to touch on this because it’s something I’ve discussed with my teachers.

 

As I understand it, there are several ways for such things to occur.

 

One is through the Hun. Basically I believe that it’s similar to your particular way of exploration, @Bindi. This is when the immortal aspect of your soul will transfer information from past/future lives or from a collective consciousness.

 

This info comes about in the form of dreams, visions, coincidences, ‘aha moments’, premonitions, intuition and so on. The information filters through the depths of the unconscious to the subconscious and eventually to the conscious ‘ordinary’ mind.

 

The fact that it filters back through in this way means that it’s ‘imperfect’ in that it picks up various influences as it comes through.

 

This is Jerry Alan Johnson’s take on visions in particular, though he is coming from a TCM perspective:

 

Quote

 

THE UPPER DANTIAN AND INTUITIVE AWARENESS

As the Shen is developed and the Upper Dantian is opened, spiritual communications may reveal themselves in a flash of an image or as a vision in the mind's eye. These images and visions are sometimes very brief and abstract. Correctly interpreting these images takes practice, as the images streaming from the Yuan Shen must be distinguished from the dreamlike wanderings of the subconscious and cannot be interpreted easily by the logical mind.

Chi Kung doctors must be able to distinguish between true and false messages reflected through their visions. True visions are received from the doctor's divine connection to the Dao or Wuji, while false visions reflect messages from the subconscious. The ability to accurately separate these visions is another example of "knowing without knowing."

Although intuitive communication from within is usually felt as a strong impulse, the Chi Kung doctor must learn to keep the logical mind from interfering by practicing spiritual meditations. These meditations involve techniques of establishing and strengthening clear links of communication with the higher self. They should be practiced repeatedly until this connection becomes a natural, recurring phenomenon, replacing the otherwise endless drone of the ego and the logical mind. The more one practices stilling the logical mind and circumventing the ego, the easier it becomes to receive a clear communication from the higher self. When the higher self-initiates a communication, it does not demand or impose itself.

https://ichikung.com/dantians

 

 

 

For me it’s what my mother sees in her visions that has given me most of my overall perspective. Whether what she sees comes through the Hun or from her connection to the Dao or Wuji is the issue. I have thought about this issue quite a lot, it certainly makes a difference, and some of my thoughts are written below:
 

1. She also sees what’s going on in the body physically, and has correctly diagnosed a physical problem or followed someone being healed physically via ‘seeing’ which has been matched with what’s going on in real time in the real physical world. 
2. I believe she sees the structure of the subtle body in the same matter of fact way, as it is, not as an imposed belief system. There are many resonances with alchemy and daoism though, which can mean one of two things. A) She is repeating what she learnt in circa 300 CE, or B ) Daoism and parts of alchemy have actually got it right and reported what the subtle body actually looks like to the human mind.

 

Quote

Another way is through what I’d call ‘direct insight’.

 

This comes in a split second and ‘unfiltered’. There’s no imagery, visions or anything that needs unpacking or making sense of. It comes as an immediate, direct insight that’s complete and ‘perfect’.

 

That’s what’s interesting about direct insight - that it doesn’t come with a mental framework. In one moment,  you get a complete understanding of the process of creation and what has then been codified into ‘Chinese medicine’ for example.

 

It actually then takes time to translate this insight into a conceptual model that can be communicated to others. (Which is when it collects ‘imperfections’).

 

Direct insight is extremely rare. But it seems that many of the most important systems of cultivation and ways of understanding (Yi Jing for example) come in this way.

 

There might be a lot of neidan based on the Yi Jing, for instance 

 

Return means coming back. In the body of the hexagram one yang moves below a group of yins ䷗; this hexagram represents the return of yang. The way to do it involves working in sequence, restoring it gradually; one cannot restore it immediately, or even if one does restore it immediately it cannot be stabilized. This path is not difficult to know, but it is difficult to practice….. going from a single yang ䷗, until six yangs ䷀ are pure and complete.  -- Liu Yiming, The Taoist I Ching, hexagram #24 Return.

 

This is very different (as we have more or less established previously) with its pure Yang ideal than the Yin and Yang are equal and together birth something kind of perspective, that was around in 300 AD and is in texts like the External Yellow Court (undetermined date). It still comes down to a belief that the Yi Jing/Neidan is closer to the truth than the External Yellow Court text which has a very different perspective on things. It is what you and your teachers believe no doubt, but your belief doesn’t make it so, from my perspective it was someone’s limited human mind and their inevitable biased human error that made this association and consequent conclusions. 
 

The error to me is thinking that the Yi Jing was actually an alchemical text and not a divination tool, which then restricts the alchemical interpretater to align with the Yi Jing text, creating any number of discrepancies between the reality of the subtle body and the subtle body as interpreted through the filter of a divination text. 
 

You think the Yi Jing is inspired, Christians think the bible is inspired, muslims think the Koran is inspired, Buddhists think the Pali Canon is inspired, their beliefs don’t make it so. Equally these ‘inspired’ texts aren’t talking about the same thing, they don’t represent different interpretations of the one direct insight IMO at least. 

 

Quote

 

Then it’s up to the master, or his disciples to help translate it into a mental model that can be made sense of for others. With all the fallibility involved in that.

 

I believe that’s how much of what we call internal alchemy came to us.

External Alchemy must’ve been like the state of the art science at the time - a conceptual model with the level of nuance and granularity necessary to make understanding and communicating these things possible.

 

The Hun approach is a little different. It comes incomplete, it comes as symbols and metaphors. It’s like you’re able to overhear a message that you only partially understand - but with enough attention you can piece things together to form a coherent model that makes sense.

 

I believe the majority of (genuine) psychics have this Hun level access.

 

The indigenous aboriginal culture in Australia, as well as a few other ‘shamanic’ cultures, I believe, had a very strong connection to this level of inner work.

 

edit to add: Could it be that the Visions that JAJ refers to are a ‘ Chinese’ perspective retained in TCM and the direct insight you and your teachers refer to are a more Buddhist perspective? You have said previously your teachers are influenced by Buddhism. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Bindi

[Bindi]

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Only this begs the question why this realised 'master' introduced terms evidently taken out of chemistry (such as dantien meaning 'cinnabar field').
 

 

One of the things I saw at one time was a drop of something that looked like mercury shoot from below my navel up to my diaphragm where it hit a barrier, then shoot  down to my perineum and then shoot back up to above my navel where it stayed. How does mercury which is found in chemistry relate to the subtle body? I guess that exact malleability of mercury and the exact colour etc captures the exact nature of this thing in the subtle body. Maybe this is the filtering through the subconscious mind, so things which would be found in a chemistry lab simply are the best images for things in the subtle body. 
 

One possibility is that these images are streamed through a holistic visual ‘right brain’ first and then into the linear and verbal ‘left brain’, maybe we can’t divorce ourselves from the mechanics of our brain, and everything filters through the physical set up of the brain.  So my mercury becomes a symbol of the subtle body, but it’s not incorrect because of this. 

 

 

Quote

 

Interestingly, a similar debate revolves around Occidental Alchemy, with some contemporary historians insisting that this occult science actually boils down (:D) to simple laboratory processes. Notwithstanding the fact that already the earliest extant texts (from the same epoch you indicated in regard to Chinese Alchemy) are full of references to Hellenistic metaphysics and natural philosophy. A trend that continued with Medieval European and Renaissance writers on the topic frequently employing Christian as well as earlier Pagan mythological symbols.

 

The current trend among academic researchers to  emphasize Alchemy's external side could be seen as a counter poise to its previous one-sidedly psycho-spiritual interpretation by psychologists like Silberer and Jung.

 

However, according to my personal research, both views are equally adequate and complementary rather than contradictory. What seems so difficult to understand for the modern mind is that the ancient sciences were all based on a model of the cosmos that holistically integrated the physical with the metaphysical.

 

As an aside, I am currently working on a book about this very topic, intended for publication in the course of this year. While it focusses on the Occidental tradition, its essential thesis is fully applicable to Daoist natural philosophy and Chinese Alchemy as well.

 

I am writing this book because I believe that aforesaid kind of holistic perspective needs to be reestablished in modern culture in order to bridge the gap between science and religion, or materialism and spirituality. Although in a revised version, of course, that fully takes into account the vast increase in knowledge from Copernicus right up to most recent times.

 

In absence of such an integrated model, it is quite understandable that contemporary onlookers tend towards more of a one-sided interpretation of the ancient sciences, though. Anyway, in light of this statement:

 

 

 

 

I suppose your views regarding what external Alchemy is all about may have shifted in the meantime?

I read bits of it that tend to make more sense regarding the subtle body over time as my own subtle body and greater understanding develops. For example a text of circa 900 puts it, "natural cyclically transformed elixir is formed when flowing mercury, embracing [lead], becomes pregnant.… I see resonances here. The Chinese external alchemists were also very obsessed with mud, and mud is exactly what blocks the yin channel which should be flowing water. They were obsessed with cooking things in cauldrons, and a cauldron is exactly what a structure in the ldt appears as, because it is the best image for the actual reality? It makes my head spin thinking about it  

Edited March 24, 2022 by Bindi

[Michael Sternbach]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

One of the things I saw at one time was a drop of something that looked like mercury shoot from below my navel up to my diaphragm where it hit a barrier, then shoot  down to my perineum and then shoot back up to above my navel where it stayed. How does mercury which is found in chemistry relate to the subtle body? I guess that exact malleability of mercury and the exact colour etc captures the exact nature of this thing in the subtle body. Maybe this is the filtering through the subconscious mind, so things which would be found in a chemistry lab simply are the best images for things in the subtle body. 
 

One possibility is that these images are streamed through a holistic visual ‘right brain’ first and then into the linear and verbal ‘left brain’, maybe we can’t divorce ourselves from the mechanics of our brain, and everything filters through the physical set up of the brain.  So my mercury becomes a symbol of the subtle body, but it’s not incorrect because of this. 

 

 

I read bits of it that tend to make more sense regarding the subtle body over time as my own subtle body and greater understanding develops. For example a text of circa 900 puts it, "natural cyclically transformed elixir is formed when flowing mercury, embracing [lead], becomes pregnant.… I see resonances here. The Chinese external alchemists were also very obsessed with mud, and mud is exactly what blocks the yin channel which should be flowing water. They were obsessed with cooking things in cauldrons, and a cauldron is exactly what a structure in the ldt appears as, because it is the best image for the actual reality? It makes my head spin thinking about it  

 

Mercury stands for the all pervading ether in Alchemy, which becomes the vital force in living beings. The liquid metal known by that name isn't identical with that force, of course, but it's analogous to it.

 

Bear in mind, that (according to both Hermetism and Daoism), things are interconnected by chains of analogies. These analogies are not seen as merely symbolic, but tie in with the very fabric of the cosmos, which is understood to have both an internal and an external side.

 

Mercury as a physical substance is therefore (quint)essential in external Alchemy and can be used for producing the elixir, provided it is processed in a certain way suitable to set free the subtle force it carries.

 

 

[freeform]

On 23/03/2022 at 9:24 PM, Bindi said:

Jerry Alan Johnson’s take on visions

What he’s talking about there is an early stage of the opening of the third eye (or wisdom eye as some traditions call it).
 

It’s a little different to what I was talking about in that there’s a subject - object relationship.

 

You direct your awareness on an object and you begin to perceive some causal patterns unfolding and filtering through the various layers of mind. (Which is why they come symbolically or in bits and pieces)

 

I disagree that it’s direct information from the Yuan Shen as JAJ puts it in my opinion. (Yuan Shen cannot be symbolic or any vision or information as it is ‘prior’ to the stage of any manifestation where such things are possible).

 

Direct insight at the highest level is objectless. In that there’s direct knowledge of all causation.

 

On 23/03/2022 at 9:24 PM, Bindi said:

The error to me is thinking that the Yi Jing was actually an alchemical text and not a divination tool

I don’t think it’s a divination tool or an alchemical text… it can be used as that a divination tool… it can also be used as a tool to understand the nature of alchemical transformation. It can be used as a tool to get insight into any manifestation in the post-heaven realm. 
 

It’s more like mathematics in a way. It’s a system to understand the process of causal change at the level of Qi.

 

On 23/03/2022 at 9:24 PM, Bindi said:

You think the Yi Jing is inspired, Christians think the bible is inspired, muslims think the Koran is inspired, Buddhists think the Pali Canon is inspired, their beliefs don’t make it so.

I’m not sure what you mean by inspired. For me it would be important to be quite specific about definitions here.

 

On 23/03/2022 at 9:24 PM, Bindi said:

It still comes down to a belief that the Yi Jing/Neidan is closer to the truth than the External Yellow Court text which has a very different perspective on things. It is what you and your teachers believe no doubt, but your belief doesn’t make it so, from my perspective it was someone’s limited human mind and their inevitable biased human error that made this association and consequent conclusions.

You said something quite interesting in another thread. I’m paraphrasing but:

 

”show me an immortal - and I’ll like their method the best”.

 

I 100% agree with this.

 

These are living traditions. Texts have deliberate misdirections and hidden meanings. Living teachers that can demonstrate viscerally and unequivocally what these texts point to are (in my opinion) far better barometers of truth than translated, adapted, deliberately obfuscated text will ever be. And still better than genuinely wise teachers that can’t demonstrate or access these things by themselves.

 

(meaning don’t listen to me - I’m not even a wise teacher, let alone a master that managed to attain these things!  - But there are (living) masters that have!)

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

What he’s talking about there is an early stage of the opening of the third eye (or wisdom eye as some traditions call it).
 

It’s a little different to what I was talking about in that there’s a subject - object relationship.

 

You direct your awareness on an object and you begin to perceive some causal patterns unfolding and filtering through the various layers of mind. (Which is why they come symbolically or in bits and pieces)

 

I disagree that it’s direct information from the Yuan Shen as JAJ puts it in my opinion. (Yuan Shen cannot be symbolic or any vision or information as it is ‘prior’ to the stage of any manifestation where such things are possible).

 

Direct insight at the highest level is objectless. In that there’s direct knowledge of all causation.
 

 

Direct insight and knowledge of all causation are basically Buddhist concepts as far as I can tell, and Buddhist conceptions of ultimate truth are not the same as alchemical conceptions of ultimate truth IMO. There is a Chinese word for ‘seeing’, someone told me it once on this site but I can’t remember it, I’ll try and find it. 

 

Quote

I don’t think it’s a divination tool or an alchemical text… it can be used as that a divination tool… it can also be used as a tool to understand the nature of alchemical transformation. It can be used as a tool to get insight into any manifestation in the post-heaven realm. 
 

 

One thing I notice about the Yi Jing is that it presents opposites in a normal mental way, like ‘water and fire’, but the reality of the opposites in the subtle body is not what the normal mind would think. Using a text which employs normal reasoning will inevitably lead to error if it is attributed to the subtle body. 

 

Quote

 

It’s more like mathematics in a way. It’s a system to understand the process of causal change at the level of Qi.

 

 

Yes the Yi Jing has a comforting sort of mathematicalness to it, but how far that relates to the subtle body system is questionable to say the least. I think this is what I was perceiving as the Yang style of neidan, I see now it must be the influence of the Yi Jing. 

 

Quote

 

I’m not sure what you mean by inspired. For me it would be important to be quite specific about definitions here.

 

You said something quite interesting in another thread. I’m paraphrasing but:

 

”show me an immortal - and I’ll like their method the best”.

 

I 100% agree with this.

 

These are living traditions. Texts have deliberate misdirections and hidden meanings. Living teachers that can demonstrate viscerally and unequivocally what these texts point to are (in my opinion) far better barometers of truth than translated, adapted, deliberately obfuscated text will ever be. And still better than genuinely wise teachers that can’t demonstrate or access these things by themselves.

 

(meaning don’t listen to me - I’m not even a wise teacher, let alone a master that managed to attain these things!  - But there are (living) masters that have!)

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Direct insight and knowledge of all causation are basically Buddhist concepts as far as I can tell, and Buddhist conceptions of ultimate truth are not the same as alchemical conceptions of ultimate truth IMO. There is a Chinese word for ‘seeing’, someone told me it once on this site but I can’t remember it, I’ll try and find it. 

My teachers are Quanzhen - so there’s certainly a Buddhist influence - but its very much an alchemical lineage at its heart.

 

Im using the term ‘direct insight’ as a simplification. The way we’ve explored this subject is based around various aspects of the light of Yuan Shen and Ling - as well as the ‘anatomy’ of the upper Dantien and the various ‘sheaths’ of the central channel.

 

I rather not go into that for various reasons. 
 

Central channel and Ling work is very weird indeed - and there are things I can’t really talk about.

 

For one of the processes I even had to keep my face completely hidden from anyone for several months.  
 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

how far that relates to the subtle body system is questionable

It’s not so much that it relates to only the subtle body. 
 

It relates to the process of change - movement, transformation etc… at the level of Qi (meaning that which links heaven and earth)… It’s not describing things - but the constantly changing relationships between ‘things’. 
 

So it’s not only the qi of the internal body, but everything  (weather, planetary movements, music, politics - anything manifest really). There’s an underlying process of change beneath the appearance of things. The Yi Jing is the tool used to access and describe this.

 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

My teachers are Quanzhen - so there’s certainly a Buddhist influence - but its very much an alchemical lineage at its heart.

 

Im using the term ‘direct insight’ as a simplification. The way we’ve explored this subject is based around various aspects of the light of Yuan Shen and Ling - as well as the ‘anatomy’ of the upper Dantien and the various ‘sheaths’ of the central channel.

 

I rather not go into that for various reasons. 
 

Central channel and Ling work is very weird indeed - and there are things I can’t really talk about.

 

For one of the processes I even had to keep my face completely hidden from anyone for several months.  

 

 

If you belonged to a completely different school that taught completely different things, I suspect you would be quite as enthusiastic about that one as well. You are believing the entire philosophy of a single human institution, that is a mix of 3 different philosophies in the first place, Buddhist, Confucian and Daoist. What are the chances that it is 100% correct about absolutely everything? Or is it a case of everyone most likes their own qigong? (to paraphrase cleansox)

 

Quote

It’s not so much that it relates to only the subtle body. 
 

It relates to the process of change - movement, transformation etc… at the level of Qi (meaning that which links heaven and earth)… It’s not describing things - but the constantly changing relationships between ‘things’. 
 

So it’s not only the qi of the internal body, but everything  (weather, planetary movements, music, politics - anything manifest really). There’s an underlying process of change beneath the appearance of things. The Yi Jing is the tool used to access and describe this.

 

In this process of change why aren’t you expounding on the endless cyclical changes of Yin to Yang to Yin etc within ourselves as well as the world? This is foundational in Daoism isn’t it? 

 

[freeform]

32 minutes ago, Bindi said:

If you belonged to a completely different school that taught completely different things, I suspect you would be quite as enthusiastic about that one as well.

Of course I would.
 

It’s not the school I care about most - it’s the people and their attainment, skill and wisdom that I’m more interested in.
 

I’m not that interested in cultural stuff - though I can see why some people find it fascinating.

 

There are clear differences in paths of course.
 

But to me, the main issue is that people underestimate the path they’re on… they stop near the very beginning or part way through and think they’ve arrived. I’ve seen this in every tradition - over and over.

 

But when someone takes their path to the very ends of what’s possible for them, I have nothing but admiration and respect for that - whether it aligns with me or not. And in reality when this is genuinely what’s happened, the differences between the paths become much less prominent than the similarities.

 

To me all the vast variety of paths tend to fall into a few groups. I find I resonate with the paths that work directly with the transformation of the subtle substances (internal alchemy is one, Buddhism has their versions… Hinduism certainly does too… even esoteric Christianity does) others are into devotion… others still are into entering states of consciousness… and some are into various forms of inquiry.

 

34 minutes ago, Bindi said:

You are believing the entire philosophy of a single human institution, that is a mix of 3 different philosophies in the first place, Buddhist, Confucian and Daoist. What are the chances that it is 100% correct about absolutely everything? Or is it a case of everyone most likes their own qigong? (to paraphrase cleansox)

Nope. Again - I don’t care about institutions.

 

The reality is that there’s the scholar’s version of how changes in traditions come about and there’s the real version. The real version is to do with people and relationships on various levels.
 

The scholar’s version is to do with arguments about like the schismatic difference between ‘the realm of supreme clarity’ and the ‘supreme heaven of jade purity’. When scholars argue they leave behind a lot of evidence… while the cultivators just cultivate. A cultivator can use either side of the schismatic split to help their students.

 

I have unequivocal proof of my teacher’s level of attainment.

 

I don’t care if they’re Christian, Buddhist or Hindu or all three at the same time. I’m not believing in Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism - I’m believing in my teachers who have achieved things I thought were myths and legends.

 

These traditions have zero value without the people and beings that keep them alive.
 

I’ve met plenty of abhorrent Daoists… and Buddhists and Hindus. I don’t think the culture or philosophy or even the practices have that much bearing on one’s level of cultivation - the actual people, the teachers and their capacity for skilful and virtuous cultivation have a far greater bearing than the traditions that pave the way for them.

 

Of course I ‘like my own qigong’ - but if you think I’m trying to convert you or anyone because I think it’s 100% truth - then you’re way off the mark.

 

I’m just offering a little window on my experiences over the decades that I’ve dedicated to this stuff. 
 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

In this process of change why aren’t you expounding on the endless cyclical changes of Yin to Yang to Yin etc within ourselves as well as the world? This is foundational in Daoism isn’t it? 

 

Do you think I should be?
 

Why aren’t you?

 

I rarely expound on philosophy - I find it a bit dull and pointless unless it applies to a process I’m engaging with.

[Bindi]

58 minutes ago, freeform said:

Of course I would.
 

It’s not the school I care about most - it’s the people and their attainment, skill and wisdom that I’m more interested in.
 

I’m not that interested in cultural stuff - though I can see why some people find it fascinating.

 

There are clear differences in paths of course.
 

But to me, the main issue is that people underestimate the path they’re on… they stop near the very beginning or part way through and think they’ve arrived. I’ve seen this in every tradition - over and over.

 

But when someone takes their path to the very ends of what’s possible for them, I have nothing but admiration and respect for that - whether it aligns with me or not. And in reality when this is genuinely what’s happened, the differences between the paths become much less prominent than the similarities.

 

To me all the vast variety of paths tend to fall into a few groups. I find I resonate with the paths that work directly with the transformation of the subtle substances (internal alchemy is one, Buddhism has their versions… Hinduism certainly does too… even esoteric Christianity does) others are into devotion… others still are into entering states of consciousness… and some are into various forms of inquiry.

 

Nope. Again - I don’t care about institutions.

 

The reality is that there’s the scholar’s version of how changes in traditions come about and there’s the real version. The real version is to do with people and relationships on various levels.
 

The scholar’s version is to do with arguments about like the schismatic difference between ‘the realm of supreme clarity’ and the ‘supreme heaven of jade purity’. When scholars argue they leave behind a lot of evidence… while the cultivators just cultivate. A cultivator can use either side of the schismatic split to help their students.

 

I have unequivocal proof of my teacher’s level of attainment.

 

I don’t care if they’re Christian, Buddhist or Hindu or all three at the same time. I’m not believing in Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism - I’m believing in my teachers who have achieved things I thought were myths and legends.

 

These traditions have zero value without the people and beings that keep them alive.
 

I’ve met plenty of abhorrent Daoists… and Buddhists and Hindus. I don’t think the culture or philosophy or even the practices have that much bearing on one’s level of cultivation - the actual people, the teachers and their capacity for skilful and virtuous cultivation have a far greater bearing than the traditions that pave the way for them.

 

Of course I ‘like my own qigong’ - but if you think I’m trying to convert you or anyone because I think it’s 100% truth - then you’re way off the mark.

 

I don’t think you’re trying to convert me, but I do think you judge everything according to your school, whether you have a personal understanding of it or not, and whether your school is correct or not. So for you if your school doesn’t think it, ergo it’s not true. 

 

58 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I’m just offering a little window on my experiences over the decades that I’ve dedicated to this stuff. 
 

 

Do you think I should be?

 

 

Well, actually, yes, I think yin and Yang as underlying principles are profound. 

 

58 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Why aren’t you?

 

 

I am 

58 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I rarely expound on philosophy - I find it a bit dull and pointless unless it applies to a process I’m engaging with.

Are Yin and Yang really just philosophical to you, not any part of your process? Despite being an underlying theme in the Yi Jing and the Dao de Jing? To me they are the most important underlying principle to engage with. 

[freeform]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

Are Yin and Yang really just philosophical to you, not any part of your process?

Yin and Yang are at the root of all processes.

 

However - they are still conceptual abstractions.
 

To me, the process is more important than the overlaid conceptual model.

 

For instance in the process of developing some internal mechanism - I may well understand my progression as moving from Sheng (hexagram 46 for Ascending) -> to Gen (47 - Confinement/oppression) -> changing to Tui (58 - Lake)… (or possibly Kan, 29 - Abysmal)

 

Meaning that a beneficial process has been over-worked… resulting in a period of oppression… if I don’t fight against it with continued over-reaching, and instead accept the state of confinement and bide my time, I may be able to transform the situation into an auspicious one that develops an inner strength (Lake). If I fight against it, I may shift the process into the “Abysmal” instead… Now I know what to do.

 

And often my teacher helps me navigate my cultivation process using yi jing in this exact way.

 

This is how I use the cyclical unfolding of yin and yang in time and space to assist me.
 

But it’s still just a tool. 
 

I’m less interested in the tool than the process the tool is helping me achieve. 
 

In fact at some stage the need for this tool falls away (when direct perception arises). This is the De of wisdom.

 

I rarely discuss classical texts or yi jing for that reason. I’m interested in the actual inner process - not the tool that describes the process. Many people get lost in the tool itself and I think that’s not helpful at all.

 

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

I do think you judge everything according to your school, whether you have a personal understanding of it or not, and whether your school is correct or not.

Ah - well now that’s starting to explain the frosty attitude!

 

Of course I judge everything according to my experiences and my perspective (don’t you?). And it’s not just from my school - but from all my experiences… including ones from the many other schools and teachers I’ve had contact with (including JAJ, for instance).
 

However you’re mistaken about one thing - If I don’t have a personal understanding… or at least have an incomplete understanding, I usually say so - at least I try to make it clear. It’s true that I may think I understand something (but don’t)… I’m conscious of this, and do try to guard against it as best I can.
 

Whether I or my school is objectively correct or not - no one is to know. For me personally, the proof is in the pudding (and pudding tasting has been my main preoccupation for quite some time 🤤).

For you and other readers it’s up to your personal judgement and discernment.
 

I think people can be too fluid with an attitude of ‘everyone is right about everything in their own special way’. False humility.
 

Yielding with no backbone creates mush.

 

So I present my experience, sometimes strongly, if I feel it requires it - and it’s up to you to make of it what you will. I don’t think I’ve presented anything very strongly here though… hence why I was surprised at the frostiness.
 

My intention isn’t to be right or to make you feel judged or uncomfortable. My intention is to be helpful. I get a real kick out of seeing fellow cultivators succeed in their training - it’s the only reason I take time to post here.

 

You'll soon get a nice, long break from me as I prepare for  my next retreat