How does Jing relate to desires?

[-_sometimes]

I've read many things on this forum, and so apologies if I can't exactly quote anything. 

 

I've read on this forum that according to alchemical traditions, having consolidated Jing causes one not to be driven by base desires. Dreamless sleep appears when fully consolidated. But I've likewise read that as Jing consolidates - as dispersal is reduced through healthy living, the urge to consume that Jing increases.  

 

Could it be that as one moves towards consolidation, abandoning various habits, the desire to spend that Jing in those activities that drain it, increases as Jing increases, until a tipping point is reached, where Jing is fully consolidated and the natural approach is keep it that way? This would be without alchemical practice, or is internal alchemy the only way to fully consolidate the Jing?

 

I find when I limit activities I would consider Jing draining or dispersing - are they the same? - the temptation to indulge them grows ever stronger. If I'm burnt out from clearly Jing draining activities, I have no desire for anything. It's like a certain level of overflowing jing - beyond what is necessary for basic functioning - is necessary to 'want' to do things, so perhaps the enjoyment and desire to do 'things' increases as Jing increases. It could be very helpful then, to consider the increase in the wanting of things as a sign of progress when limiting them is the goal. The change in perspective could be very helpful in continuing to consolidate the Jing. 

 

What are your thoughts on this?

[freeform]

I think you’re actually touching on two separate things.

 

One is consolidation (what some traditions call ending the ‘leakage’ of Jing) and the other is the ‘fullness’ of Jing.

 

Fullness of Jing is just a healthy state for people. Yes - when the Jing is full (but not consolidated) it has a tendency to ‘leak’… in that you are drawn into activities that use up that Jing. 
 

Most people that are rooted in that aspect of their consciousness will find they go through these boom and bust cycles over and over.

We’ll spend our Jing on stuff like staying up late, too much sexual/lusty activity, drugs/drink, chasing pleasure and sensory experience (where the leakage expresses through the 5 elemental qualities and systems)… As this causes the Jing to get depleted, we then go through a low period where the desire to do these things fades and we get a little down and depressed… maybe we’ll re-affirm our efforts and slowly Jing will replenish… and as it does the leaking will take place once again.

 

Obviously this isn’t healthy - but from what I can tell this is normal for most people nowadays - especially young men.

 

Consolidation is a little different.

It’s the process by which this leakage tendency is reduced and ultimately ended.

 

There’s several aspects to it - physical, energetic and psychological.

 

Energetically we bring the senses from seeking stimulation outside to gently resting inwardly. We allow the awareness to settle and stabilise at the Dantien. Settle means stillness… stability means an unwavering quality.

 

This isn’t done through mental directing and effort… it’s done by Sung and Ting (release and listening).

 

Different traditions will have different methods for assisting in this process (for example ‘pore breathing’ type practices from the Longmen tradition)… In fact most practices that assist in sinking and stabilising at the Dantien are helpful in this regard.

 

There’s the psychological part too. This is often overlooked - but it’s key. Even if energetically you’re able to consolidate, you’ll reverse that in seconds if that base-desire-led aspect of your nature isn’t handled.

 

Physical is a bit more basic… healthy, moderate lifestyle - sleep, food, exercise, moderation in sexual activity, not losing lots of blood  

 

So hopefully that helps explain the difference between what I’m calling ‘fullness of Jing’ and ‘consolidation of Jing’.

 

(In cultivation we want both.)

[-_sometimes]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

So hopefully that helps explain the difference between what I’m calling ‘fullness of Jing’ and ‘consolidation of Jing’.

It does! I was confused about the differences between dispersal & leakage, you've cleared things up a lot! 

 

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

when the Jing is full (but not consolidated) it has a tendency to ‘leak’… in that you are drawn into activities that use up that Jing. 

When Jing is full and consolidated, it does not leak, which means it keeps on building constantly through daily life, is that correct? If so, this excess Jing, where does it go? Does it naturally fuel the Jing->Qi->Shen process? If the Jing is consolidated and so there is a great excess, it has no 'choice' but to become qi? 

 

18 minutes ago, freeform said:

There’s several aspects to it - physical, energetic and psychological

So really, the aspect of the desires being fuelled because of greater Jing is basically leakage. It's a sign that you're replenishing Jing, and that can go so far, but it's like having a bucket with 11 holes in it and only 10 fingers to cover them - covering one hole just exposes another, and the water can't really go beyond that. 

 

..so consolidated Jing leads to a calming of the desires, but consolidated Jing requires a calming of the desires through calming of the mind, at least to some tipping point.

 

Now on the more hypothetical front, as a normal person, could you replenish Jing till it's full, about the point where the 'boom' cycle becomes the 'bust', and then hold out, dealing with the accompanying emotions as they arise? Might there be a use to operating in the space of being 'full of jing', learning to walk in this place and paying careful attention to one's physical and mental behaviour, in a way that might bring about some insight, gradually leading to less leakage? Of course coupled with a grounding/sinking type of practice, but I can't help but feel there has to be some use to not entering the 'bust' cycle, even if it takes a lot of effort  

[freeform]

1 hour ago, -_sometimes said:

this excess Jing, where does it go? Does it naturally fuel the Jing->Qi->Shen process? If the Jing is consolidated and so there is a great excess, it has no 'choice' but to become qi? 

Technically yes - to a certain level. Though beyond a certain point it’s unhealthy for non-cultivators.

 

In reality, the main reason for doing this is to use this essence for spiritual cultivation.

 

Various alchemical and energetic processes can be undertaken when the Jing is full and consolidated.

 

1 hour ago, -_sometimes said:

 

..so consolidated Jing leads to a calming of the desires, but consolidated Jing requires a calming of the desires through calming of the mind, at least to some tipping point.

Yes - this is usually achieved on a personal retreat - the infamous ‘100 days’… though it may take a little longer for most people. Not an easy thing to be able to do of course.

 

For most people (non-cultivators) it’s much better to use your Jing in a healthy, balanced way. It’s nature is to unfold your life-processes and to support and create new life too  

 

From a Jing point of view, our modern society is really quite sick. Base desires are not only tolerated, but encouraged. We’re constantly bombarded by sexualised media… lust, greed, social status - these are the most celebrated things in much of the media we consume… experts in manipulating our psychology constantly devise ways to play on our desires, keep our attention and make us spend.

 

It’s a strange world we live in and our ‘normal’ isn’t healthy!

 

So it’s very hard to be a normal person nowadays. I’d say that to regain a healthy relationship with the ‘water’ aspect (Jing and all the related psychology and instinctual drives) we must be quite careful with how we relate with the outer world.

 

Guard your awareness from too much media. Try spending more time in nature… focus on relationships more than on things… guard yourself from having your desires manipulated… protect against constant distractions and learn to focus your mind on what you’re doing.

 

This combined with healthy eating/sleeping/exercise will naturally alleviate the ‘boom and bust cycle’. This is enough to stabilise that aspect of our nature and often we’ll find a nice balance for ourselves.

 

[exorcist_1699]

Jing , the essence of life , is unlikely  to be kept or consolidated  ;  it is after having it  changed to Qi,   can we keep and consolidate it .

Similarly, we cannot keep Qi and consolidate it for long  and for a big amount  ;  it is  after having it changed to  Shen,   can we keep and consolidate it safely and substantially  . Jing and Qi are always in  dispersal status .  So, the law of the  increase of disorder , entropy ,  not just applies to the physical world but also  to the world of  Qi  ,  yet only up to  the so-called post-heavenly level  .  Beyond that  , say  after our  success  of nourishing embryonic breathing and break open the  Magic Gateway ,  the law  stops  to be true  because now we no longer solely get  our own Qi to live, but limitless  Qi outside .

 

Notice that  external world always  "steals" our jing and qi secretly in  scenarios unnoticed ,  that is when we are in sleep,  in anger, in depression ..etc , it is only after our capability of consolidating  the  mindless Mind ("不神之神" ) that can us be safeguarded from those secret loses and reverse that one-dimensional time's arrow towards aging and death..   There is in fact a dynamic balance between qi (with jing assimilated )  and Shen  , the more jing and qi we accumulate , the higher a level of Shen we need to reach in order to keep those qi and jing secured , not  leaking ,  yet it is in sleep , in frustration , in anger , in unrest ..etc  that  we  can't  consolidate our mind to do  ( read the  famous  book " Yin Fu Jing" ("陰符經"  ), a  Daoist classic next to Laotze and Chungtze. )

Edited March 28, 2022 by exorcist_1699

[Lairg]

In this solar system relationships are more important than energy.  Better perhaps to relate to the chakra nature spirits than to their energies

[S:C]

12 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

confused about the differences between dispersal & leakage

follow up question on this... maybe it's just my lacking language skills. 

 

I've read that according to TCM (?) for example ginseng will "disperse" the Qi.

It doesn't feel like "leakage" though, if I take it (alright in a combination with other supplements, maybe then it's "overwritten"

by the others)

Leakage, sounds to me like it just drops out gravity like as soon the critical point is reached. Disperse sounds to me like its heat that gives some of it away to the surroundings. 

Is that correct? I've looked it up in dictionary but cannot grasp the difference somehow. 

 

Is disperse then only used when people are consolidating / cultivating Jung? 🧐 (I guess not!? So cultivators do no more have loss of Jing?!)

So it's a bad thing to 'disperse' (e.g. via Ginseng) if you have a momentarily lack of Jing? How would one know, simply observing ones wishes for "exciting activities"?

 

and before I forget, I always get confused when people talk about Jing/Qi/Shen... are they talking about the status of a non cultivator or that of one who reached the change from acquired to congenital (xiantien, houtien etc.)?

 

Because when people talk about Qi, does it mean, they have consolidated Jing to Qi? Or are they talking about what everyone, including non cultivators have? Is that a one time milestone or a ongoing challenge? 

Edited March 28, 2022 by questionmark

[freeform]

4 hours ago, questionmark said:

I've read that according to TCM (?) for example ginseng will "disperse" the Qi.

It doesn't feel like "leakage" though, if I take it

 

It's technical jargon really

 

Generally Qi is said to disperse and Jing is said to leak. These are the natural tendencies.

 

This relates to the fire and water nature of these 'substances'.

So Qi, like fire or heat tends to rise and disperse outwards.

 

Jing, related to water tends leak down and out.

 

I'm no TCM expert, but ginseng is generally considered highly tonifying for the Qi. I haven't seen it described to have a dispersing action (though it could). Because of its strength, it does have many contraindications (such as excess heat, yin depletion and others). It's rare to take ginseng outside of a 'balanced' formula... and it's problematic if the right balance is not found for your particular condition and constitution (and continually adjusted as things change).

 

So effectively - if you're running on empty (yin depletion, which is related to jing depletion) it's a bad idea crank the 'gas pedal' as hard as possible.

 

4 hours ago, questionmark said:

I always get confused when people talk about Jing/Qi/Shen... are they talking about the status of a non cultivator or that of one who reached the change from acquired to congenital (xiantien, houtien etc.)?

 

No - everyone has jing qi and shen.

 

This is a continuous process in everyone.

 

(Though I personally think that the concept of 'converting' jing to Qi... then 'converting' Qi to Shen is flawed... or at least misses some key nuances.)

 

 

[freeform]

8 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Jing , the essence of life , is unlikely  to be kept or consolidated

 

Depends what you meant by 'kept'.

 

If 'kept' is the opposite of 'depleted' - then it's a must. Anyone with depleted Jing or Qi will have a hard time cultivating - they require medical help and/or very light qi gong that gently circulates and calms.

 

If 'kept' means somehow frozen and kept from expressing itself - then that's extremely problematic - we certainly don't want that.

 

If 'kept' means reversed... or kept from continuing the natural aging process - then yes, what I'm talking about wouldn't achieve that... for that, as you say, one needs to move on to more advanced alchemical work.

 

Consolidated (in the way I'm using the term) simply means it's not leaking. If it's leaking in your sleep, then it's not consolidated yet.

 

For example children naturally have full, consolidated jing... but it isn't 'kept' as such - it expresses itself as the powerful life processes of growth and development. After puberty, the 'entropy' aspect begins to take over...

 

(for this reason some masters would adopt young orphan kids to pass on their lineage - because everything is full and consolidated, it basically cuts out many years of hard work... though doing that has its own issues.)

 

8 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

after our  success  of nourishing embryonic breathing and break open the  Magic Gateway

 

I'm talking about a far earlier process. I assume that if you're at that stage, then you generally know what you're doing already - and don't need tips on the internet

 

I'm talking about the initial reversal of water and fire... in effect, we begin reversing their tendency to leak and to disperse.

 

(Qi disperses through emotion and emotional reactivity mainly)

 

8 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

after having it  changed to Qi

 

As I mentioned above...

 

I find that description problematic - it doesn't explain what actually happens. It's not that Jing as a substance is changed to a different substance: Qi (meaning Jing is depleted as a result and Qi is replenished).

 

Full and consolidate Jing supports the generation of Qi... Full and consolidated Qi supports the generation of Shen. Full and consolidated Shen supports entry to various other aspects (Like Ling or Yuan Shen). Every stage must be 'full' for the most efficient functioning.

 

(and again this is all prior to working alchemically on the 'pre-heaven' aspect of these things).

 

[awaken]

精和氣不需要鞏固，也不需要積蓄，只需要『轉化』。

精化成氣，氣化成神，這個神最剛開始就是陽神，也就是烏肝，也就是光。

 

Essence and Qi do not need to be consolidated or accumulated, but only need to be "transformed".

Essence transforms into Qi, Qi transforms into Shen, and this Shen is the Yang Shen at the very beginning, that is, black liver, that is, light.

[exorcist_1699]

On 2022/3/28 at 8:12 PM, freeform said:

.............

Full and consolidate Jing supports the generation of Qi... Full and consolidated Qi supports the generation of Shen. Full and consolidated Shen supports entry to various other aspects (Like Ling or Yuan Shen). Every stage must be 'full' for the most efficient functioning.

.....

 

 

From Daoist perspective , the answer likely is yes . They better be full , so that we can have those qualitative jumps.

 

However from  Zen's point of view  , it is not necessary as stages or steps are not its  concern .  Zen fully makes use of  people's  subjective initiative ,  and  add some extra dimension to our spirit . Zen is beyond logic and time, this is why  and how Zen can be so powerful ,  or so difficult .  In that sense,  talking about  steps or stages of  accumulating jing or  qi  is not necessary,  but blockades.  

 

Daoist interpretation of Zen's  uniqueness  in methodology is  :  In terms of contra- logic, people can ignore jing and qi ,  go straight forward to cultivate Shen , thing on the highest level , yet at the same time finish the jobs of cultivating jing and qi , things on lower levels or earlier stages  ,  at one stroke .. ;  in terms of no time , people can go to  the future achievement first , then  later solve the problem at the present ..

 

Daoist Wen Shi School ("文始派" )  is  in this sense the school closet  to Zen ,   yet still via Jing,  qi and Shen ;  for example , it says , right at the very beginning  of  cultivation :

 

- "以我之精，合天地萬物之精 ;  以我之神，合天地萬物之神 " (" Cultivate our jing to integrate with the jing of the cosmic ;   cultivate our  Shen to  integrate with the Shen of the cosmic ")

 

- "能見精神而久生；能忘精神而超生  "  (" Those  who see and grasp  jing and Shen  can live very long ;  those  who forget what their jing and Shen are  live beyond the  boundary of life  " ) 

 

Notice that these are not only talking about levels  but also  ways or methods ;  in fact , all superb things in Zen and Daoism are , in philosophical terms,  the unity of epistemology , methodology and ontology ; and ,  any trial of  separating  them implies  steps and differentiations,  therefore means entanglements in cultivation .

 

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by exorcist_1699

[Bindi]

On 28/3/2022 at 8:12 PM, freeform said:

 

Depends what you meant by 'kept'.

 

If 'kept' is the opposite of 'depleted' - then it's a must. Anyone with depleted Jing or Qi will have a hard time cultivating - they require medical help and/or very light qi gong that gently circulates and calms.

 

If 'kept' means somehow frozen and kept from expressing itself - then that's extremely problematic - we certainly don't want that.

 

If 'kept' means reversed... or kept from continuing the natural aging process - then yes, what I'm talking about wouldn't achieve that... for that, as you say, one needs to move on to more advanced alchemical work.

 

Consolidated (in the way I'm using the term) simply means it's not leaking. If it's leaking in your sleep, then it's not consolidated yet.

 

For example children naturally have full, consolidated jing... but it isn't 'kept' as such - it expresses itself as the powerful life processes of growth and development. After puberty, the 'entropy' aspect begins to take over...

 

(for this reason some masters would adopt young orphan kids to pass on their lineage - because everything is full and consolidated, it basically cuts out many years of hard work... though doing that has its own issues.)

 

 

I'm talking about a far earlier process. I assume that if you're at that stage, then you generally know what you're doing already - and don't need tips on the internet

 

I'm talking about the initial reversal of water and fire... in effect, we begin reversing their tendency to leak and to disperse.

 

(Qi disperses through emotion and emotional reactivity mainly)

 

 

As I mentioned above...

 

I find that description problematic - it doesn't explain what actually happens. It's not that Jing as a substance is changed to a different substance: Qi (meaning Jing is depleted as a result and Qi is replenished).

 

 

From my perspective Jing as a substance actually does transform into Qi when it rises from the ldt to the mdt - without depleting the Jing in the LDT because Jing should have become self-replenishing before this step. Qi in its turn should also be self-replenishing, as there should be an endless supply of Jing. (This is talking about alchemical Jing, ie., subtle water, nothing to do with bodily fluids). 

 

Quote

 

 

Full and consolidate Jing supports the generation of Qi... Full and consolidated Qi supports the generation of Shen. Full and consolidated Shen supports entry to various other aspects (Like Ling or Yuan Shen). Every stage must be 'full' for the most efficient functioning.

 

(and again this is all prior to working alchemically on the 'pre-heaven' aspect of these things).

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Bindi

[freeform]

28 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Jing should have become self-replenishing

I agree with you that Jing can be replenished.
 

Many, however disagree and say that there’s a finite amount (and then you die).

 

But, if indeed it’s possible to replenish Jing - it is very rare. I’ve met only a handful of people that have done that to a high level.

 

—

Transformation comes with the clap of thunder.

 

White clouds form above the head.

 

Sweet dew flows down.

 

One consumes the wine of immortality.

 

Free and at ease… but who would notice.

 

Sitting and listening to the melody of no strings playing.

—

 

I’ve mentioned my experience with this here at some point. However my attainment is still at the very earliest stage of that process - not the ‘sweet dew’ talked of above (and yet already a paradigm shift in how my body and physiology function).

 

At that stage, this is not your personal Jing - not even your pre-heaven congenital Jing. It’s another form of Jing entirely.
 

But what I’ve been talking about here in this thread is a much earlier stage of cultivation than that. Where 99.9999% of cultivators are at - or at most a few years away from.

 

I keep saying that these things are hugely context dependent. We can make a real mess of things by not understanding the context that applies to us.

 

The stages of Jing/Qi fullness and consolidation I’m talking about are basic and fundamental - they’re required to get anywhere near the ‘sweet dew’ process.

 

With Jing Qi and Shen at this level, one substance does not transform into the other because in reality they are one and the same ‘substance’.

 

True transformation happens later on the path. And the transformation is a lot more literal than metaphorical.

 

In my experience people completely underestimate the vastness of the early stages - always keen to jump ahead without achieving the fundamentals.

 

One of the biggest underestimations is just how much Qi must be cultivated to provide the correct level of ‘sulphur’ for the alchemical process to take place. (A tip for the few with the ears to listen)

 

Qi will build naturally with the ‘cessation of words’.

 

But the Qi must build a lot - there’s the classic 5 depths of Qi - from skin level to marrow level. Each of the 5 need to be full. Most cultivators are able to access at least 3 levels… but very rarely do they fill these three, let alone all 5.

 

You cannot hold much Qi because you haven’t been able to maintain ‘cessation of words’ in your standing practice for long enough.

 

It all happens naturally by itself. No guiding or forcing or compressing… the qi does it all itself. Create the right conditions and the simplest method will take off all by itself with no micromanaging required (indeed, that would stop the process) - just some basic methods and a still, steady, unwavering awareness.
 

Qi can get so dense that it takes on an almost physical form.

 

When this dense level of Qi first entered my hip socket (during sitting practice) there was a massive clung like a dramatic chiropractic adjustment. 
 

Constant chiropractic style adjustments all up my spine… The spaces in my torso, between ribs, clavicles, muscle groups and even organs all physically filled up… my skin became plump like a baby’s… my skull creaked and cracked, reshaping over months… my upper pallet cracked and widened creating a little dimple in the middle… my sinuses cracked and widened (a massive relief that was)… my eyes changed colour.

 

This is just Qi doing it’s thing. But it only penetrates deep and affects change substantially when it’s dense… The level of density equates to the depth of its action. When dense, it feels literally like it has weight to it.
 

When my Dantien is active, it forms a physical shape in my abdomen. Like a rubber ball - clear and evident to anyone.

 

The Dantien itself fills with qi through so many stages too. What one gets through spontaneous movement is a tiny fraction of what ‘full’ is. The density of Qi while at the stage of spontaneous movements is very low - so low that it mostly touches the nerve fibres (hence the shaking and spasming)… until eventually it accesses the channels (which is when most movements stop!)

 

People argue about the Dantien being the size of a golfball or a grapefruit… or it’s your whole abdomen… or it’s at your perineum or no it’s at the solar plexus…

 

it’s all of those - again this issue of context. Context of progress in your process as well as context of what your particular lineage is aiming to do.

 

In many of the genuine alchemical systems I’ve come across, the Dantien changes, expands and contracts in stages… from the light internal humm you get with zifagong to a noticeable sphere as the yin begins to take shape… to filling your full abdominal cavity as the yang builds (and the various organs and tissues inside are filled too) to eventually expanding through the whole body… and more still. These are all stages of the process. With years of practice in between.
 

And this is all prior to any alchemical process (or at least what I call an alchemical process - which involves working with and transforming the fundamental substances of existence)… All this qi stuff forms just one of the required agents or substances.

 

I’m saying this not as a brag, not as a ‘my school is better than yours’. I just want to show that there is a real transformation that occurs - and it’s the very beginning, fundamental practices that everyone skips or speeds through that are the most important.

 

Skip a small thing, or even just assume you’ve got it before you really have - and nothing that’s later down the line will manifest… or it will manifest not quite right and you’ll stop progress.

 

The later stuff in many ways is actually achieved more easily than the beginner level stuff. As long as you have a few of the basic skills and conditions down, it all unfolds of it’s own accord over the years as you practice quite straightforward methods.
 

I get that this is all the opinion of some dude on the internet. I get that my school does things in a certain way that might not align with another… 

 

Even so, I don’t think it would hurt taking a few steps back and looking at the fundamental, beginner stuff in your practice (a general ‘you’ - not talking to anyone in particular).

With just a curious approach of ‘maybe there’s more to this than I thought… how can I explore this foundational process and take it deeper?’… ‘what if… I haven’t actually managed the very simplest of the basic things like allowing the qi to sink and settle? How would I go about things if this was the case?’ Just treat it as an exploration.

 

The answers are rarely in the classics. The classics assume you’ve got a teacher and you’ve managed to achieve the fundamentals… the classics (the alchemical ones especially) are all talking about the ‘cutting edge’ stuff at the very highest levels (with plenty of obfuscation and misdirection to throw off the uninitiated).

 

Some classical texts are wholistic - explaining the whole path in simple terms - these tend to be the really simple ones that most people overlook.

 

But even so - these are only an adjunct to a teacher if you want to genuinely transform the nature of existence (not everyone wants that… it’s a weird thing to want!)

 

Anyway - please excuse the long rambling post. It’s not long before I’ll be taking my leave for some time and wanted to touch upon a few things in an effort to help those that are cultivating.

[awaken]

9 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

From Daoist perspective , the answer likely is yes . They better be full , so that we can have those qualitative jumps.

 

However from  Zen's point of view  , it is not necessary as stages or steps are not its  concern .  Zen fully makes use of  people's  subjective initiative ,  and  add some extra dimension to our spirit . Zen is beyond logic and time, this is why  and how Zen can be so powerful ,  or so difficult .  In that sense,  talking about  steps or stages of  accumulating jing or  qi  is not necessary,  but blockades.  

Daoist interpretation of Zen's  uniqueness  in methodology about this is  :  People can ignore jing and qi ,  go straight forward to cultivate Shen , thing on the highest level , yet at the same time finish the jobs of cultivating jing and qi , things on lower levels or earlier stages  ,  at one stroke ..

Of course ,  hardly is this anything my creation but borrow it from  works and practices of masters :  白玉蟾, 陳致虛 and  李道純.

 

 

 

其實從道家修煉的角度，也並未強調精氣的飽滿。強調精氣的飽滿是搬運法的特色。而搬運法並未被丹道大師張伯端認定為正確的丹道。

 

而黃帝內經也一樣的說法，並不需要刻意去練氣。而是主要以練神為主。氣是神的副產物。

 

也就是在真正的道家經典中，悟真篇，參同契，黃帝內經，講的都是相同的，練神為主。

但是在搬運法的書籍當中，卻以練氣為主。

也就是在中國有一個體系並非是丹道，卻以丹道自居，這就是搬運法。

而搬運法並不能代表道家修煉。

 

In fact, from the perspective of Taoist cultivation, there is no emphasis on the fullness of essence. Emphasizing the fullness of essence is the characteristic of the handling method. However, the handling method was not recognized as the correct alchemy method by the master of alchemy, Zhang Boduan.

The Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic also said the same, and there is no need to deliberately practice Qi. Rather, it mainly focuses on practicing God. Qi is a by-product of God.

That is to say, in the real Taoist classics, the Enlightenment Chapter, the Reference to the Deeds, and the Yellow Emperor's Internal Canon all talk about the same thing, and the main thing is to practice the spirit.

However, among the books on the transfer method, the main focus is on practicing Qi.

That is to say, there is a system in China that is not the Tao of Dan, but claims to be Tao of Dan itself. This is the method of transportation.

The handling method does not represent Taoist cultivation.

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, freeform said:

I agree with you that Jing can be replenished.
 

Many, however disagree and say that there’s a finite amount (and then you die).

 

But, if indeed it’s possible to replenish Jing - it is very rare. I’ve met only a handful of people that have done that to a high level.

 

—

Transformation comes with the clap of thunder.

 

White clouds form above the head.

 

Sweet dew flows down.

 

One consumes the wine of immortality.

 

Free and at ease… but who would notice.

 

Sitting and listening to the melody of no strings playing.

—

 

Very similar to these verses from the External Yellow Court

 

Quote

 

My spirits, Hun and Po, dwell within the centre

 

The Jing secretion flows out like a stream with a fragrant smell.

 

Establish a connection between the Mysterious Ying and the Ming Tang.

 

With the sound of clapping thunder and lightening they move together.

 

The left is You, the right Mao, this is my Chamber. 

 

 

When you bring the Po and the Hun (Yin and Yang) together in the the centre of the UDT, then indeed they will produce the sound of thunder when they meet there.

 

Quote

 

I’ve mentioned my experience with this here at some point. However my attainment is still at the very earliest stage of that process - not the ‘sweet dew’ talked of above (and yet already a paradigm shift in how my body and physiology function).

 

At that stage, this is not your personal Jing - not even your pre-heaven congenital Jing. It’s another form of Jing entirely.
 

But what I’ve been talking about here in this thread is a much earlier stage of cultivation than that. Where 99.9999% of cultivators are at - or at most a few years away from.

 

I keep saying that these things are hugely context dependent. We can make a real mess of things by not understanding the context that applies to us.

 

The stages of Jing/Qi fullness and consolidation I’m talking about are basic and fundamental - they’re required to get anywhere near the ‘sweet dew’ process.

 

With Jing Qi and Shen at this level, one substance does not transform into the other because in reality they are one and the same ‘substance’.

 

True transformation happens later on the path. And the transformation is a lot more literal than metaphorical.

 

In my experience people completely underestimate the vastness of the early stages - always keen to jump ahead without achieving the fundamentals.

 

One of the biggest underestimations is just how much Qi must be cultivated to provide the correct level of ‘sulphur’ for the alchemical process to take place. (A tip for the few with the ears to listen)

 

Qi will build naturally with the ‘cessation of words’.

 

But the Qi must build a lot - there’s the classic 5 depths of Qi - from skin level to marrow level. Each of the 5 need to be full. Most cultivators are able to access at least 3 levels… but very rarely do they fill these three, let alone all 5.

 

You cannot hold much Qi because you haven’t been able to maintain ‘cessation of words’ in your standing practice for long enough.

 

 

More likely you cannot hold much Qi because it’s not Qi made directly from Jing. This Qi made from Jing lines the bottom of the pool in the MDT so it doesn’t leak out. 

 

Quote

 

It all happens naturally by itself. No guiding or forcing or compressing… the qi does it all itself. Create the right conditions and the simplest method will take off all by itself with no micromanaging required (indeed, that would stop the process) - just some basic methods and a still, steady, unwavering awareness.
 

Qi can get so dense that it takes on an almost physical form.

 

When this dense level of Qi first entered my hip socket (during sitting practice) there was a massive clung like a dramatic chiropractic adjustment. 
 

Constant chiropractic style adjustments all up my spine… The spaces in my torso, between ribs, clavicles, muscle groups and even organs all physically filled up… my skin became plump like a baby’s… my skull creaked and cracked, reshaping over months… my upper pallet cracked and widened creating a little dimple in the middle… my sinuses cracked and widened (a massive relief that was)… my eyes changed colour.

 

This is just Qi doing it’s thing. But it only penetrates deep and affects change substantially when it’s dense… The level of density equates to the depth of its action. When dense, it feels literally like it has weight to it.
 

When my Dantien is active, it forms a physical shape in my abdomen. Like a rubber ball - clear and evident to anyone.

 

The Dantien itself fills with qi through so many stages too. What one gets through spontaneous movement is a tiny fraction of what ‘full’ is. The density of Qi while at the stage of spontaneous movements is very low - so low that it mostly touches the nerve fibres (hence the shaking and spasming)… until eventually it accesses the channels (which is when most movements stop!)

 

People argue about the Dantien being the size of a golfball or a grapefruit… or it’s your whole abdomen… or it’s at your perineum or no it’s at the solar plexus…

 

it’s all of those - again this issue of context. Context of progress in your process as well as context of what your particular lineage is aiming to do.

 

In many of the genuine alchemical systems I’ve come across, the Dantien changes, expands and contracts in stages… from the light internal humm you get with zifagong to a noticeable sphere as the yin begins to take shape… to filling your full abdominal cavity as the yang builds (and the various organs and tissues inside are filled too) to eventually expanding through the whole body… and more still. These are all stages of the process. With years of practice in between.
 

And this is all prior to any alchemical process (or at least what I call an alchemical process - which involves working with and transforming the fundamental substances of existence)… All this qi stuff forms just one of the required agents or substances.

 

I’m saying this not as a brag, not as a ‘my school is better than yours’. I just want to show that there is a real transformation that occurs - and it’s the very beginning, fundamental practices that everyone skips or speeds through that are the most important.

 

Skip a small thing, or even just assume you’ve got it before you really have - and nothing that’s later down the line will manifest… or it will manifest not quite right and you’ll stop progress.

 

The later stuff in many ways is actually achieved more easily than the beginner level stuff. As long as you have a few of the basic skills and conditions down, it all unfolds of it’s own accord over the years as you practice quite straightforward methods.
 

I get that this is all the opinion of some dude on the internet. I get that my school does things in a certain way that might not align with another… 

 

Even so, I don’t think it would hurt taking a few steps back and looking at the fundamental, beginner stuff in your practice (a general ‘you’ - not talking to anyone in particular).

With just a curious approach of ‘maybe there’s more to this than I thought… how can I explore this foundational process and take it deeper?’… ‘what if… I haven’t actually managed the very simplest of the basic things like allowing the qi to sink and settle? How would I go about things if this was the case?’ Just treat it as an exploration.

 

The answers are rarely in the classics. The classics assume you’ve got a teacher and you’ve managed to achieve the fundamentals… the classics (the alchemical ones especially) are all talking about the ‘cutting edge’ stuff at the very highest levels (with plenty of obfuscation and misdirection to throw off the uninitiated).

 

 

Of course the classics also assume that you’re working with the fundamentals of Yin and Yang/Po and Hun. We’re not on the same page in this, and I doubt we ever will be. 

 

Quote

 

Some classical texts are wholistic - explaining the whole path in simple terms - these tend to be the really simple ones that most people overlook.

 

But even so - these are only an adjunct to a teacher if you want to genuinely transform the nature of existence (not everyone wants that… it’s a weird thing to want!)

 

Anyway - please excuse the long rambling post. It’s not long before I’ll be taking my leave for some time and wanted to touch upon a few things in an effort to help those that are cultivating.

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Bindi

[awaken]

日魂和月魄不會出現在下丹田，而是出現在玄關。

玄關才是丹道裡面所謂的中。

 

The Hun of the sun and Po of the moon will not appear in the lower dantian, but in the Xiuanguan.

The Xiuanguan is the so-called middle in the way of alchemy.

 

而下丹田也不是玄關。

玄關是氣機到了才會在正中央打開，並非在身體的特定位置。

這個正中央指的是第三眼開啟所出現的光。

 

And the lower dantian is not the Xiuanguan.

The Xiuanguan is only opened in the center when the Qi matures, not in a specific position of the body.

This center refers to the light that emerges from the opening of the third eye.

[-_sometimes]

On 30/03/2022 at 11:54 AM, freeform said:

—

Btw best of luck on your retreat, do come back when you're done and let us all know what's up

[Trunk]

relevant video posted by Damo Mitchell this morning, "Stilling the Jing" with Qigong

 

 

 

[Desmonddf]

On 27/03/2022 at 2:03 PM, -_sometimes said:

I've read many things on this forum, and so apologies if I can't exactly quote anything. 

 

I've read on this forum that according to alchemical traditions, having consolidated Jing causes one not to be driven by base desires. Dreamless sleep appears when fully consolidated. But I've likewise read that as Jing consolidates - as dispersal is reduced through healthy living, the urge to consume that Jing increases.  

 

Could it be that as one moves towards consolidation, abandoning various habits, the desire to spend that Jing in those activities that drain it, increases as Jing increases, until a tipping point is reached, where Jing is fully consolidated and the natural approach is keep it that way? This would be without alchemical practice, or is internal alchemy the only way to fully consolidate the Jing?

 

I find when I limit activities I would consider Jing draining or dispersing - are they the same? - the temptation to indulge them grows ever stronger. If I'm burnt out from clearly Jing draining activities, I have no desire for anything. It's like a certain level of overflowing jing - beyond what is necessary for basic functioning - is necessary to 'want' to do things, so perhaps the enjoyment and desire to do 'things' increases as Jing increases. It could be very helpful then, to consider the increase in the wanting of things as a sign of progress when limiting them is the goal. The change in perspective could be very helpful in continuing to consolidate the Jing. 

 

What are your thoughts on this?

 

That has to do with the state of the balance between Yin/Yang kidney Qi and Heart Qi.

 

There is no unbalanced desire if one's yin and yang are balanced as well. However, many practices have the potential to lead to small imbalances (which hopefully will balance themselves back with continuous practice).

This should be the reason for the phenomenon you speak about. Not necessarily Jing, but the process which is used to accumulate and consolidate it, is the reason some imbalances in desires may appear and occur.

 

 

 

 

==========================================================================================================

 

 

 

Jing is one of those states the plethora of subtle energies in one's body can achieve. 

 

It is a state of great harmonization and completude. All five elements are harmonic on all of its yin and yang characteristics.

 

Regular Qi will circulate dozens of times inside the body, only the most pure of its parts being constantly craddled by the body and souls themselves, all to generate Jing.

 

Whatever tries to become Jing and doesn't attain that, simply won't be held inside your extraordinary vessels and kidney vessels. It won't become Jing, and will be excreted with your faeces or urine or taken away to another part of your body to be further refined and transformed.

 

As one accumulates Jing in their bodies, the first channels to fill up are the extraordinary vessels. Then the Kidney vessels. Then all of the special convergence points in the body where Jing flows through, accumulates and expands once those two are full.

 

Then it spreads to other places, and starts to be transformed into the most pure of Qi. A kind of Qi which is like, indeed, immortal brew compared to the regular Qi we usually have.

 

Regular Qi comes from regular food, drink and air. Qi which comes from Jing comes from perfect balance and harmony, with infinite permutations.

 

And thus, Jing does turn into Qi. And it also only does so naturally only once the channels are full of Jing.

 

There is, obviously, another path.

 

One can force the issue.

 

Go against the natural way, go against the flow of the body and mind. Desire intensely to achieve. To get to the next step.

 

And then one will use their minds, bodies and emotions. And knowledge. And they will drain Jing from their Kidneys and Extraordinary Vessels, and forcefully turn it into Qi.

 

Which will then also be forcefully turned into Shen.

 

It works.

 

It kills as well.

 

Not necessarily by Jing depletion. One will be long gone on the path of Insanity by the time they damage their inner vessels enough through bad practices.

 

No. Through DESIRE which RESPECTS NOT THE FLOW OF NATURE. Once results appear, once one starts to obtain what they seek which was sought on the basys of desire, this desire will grow and consume them. They will cease to be. The souls will cease all movement. The heart will stiffle. The only flame kindling consciousness will be lust.That's an Inner Demon that prevailed above one's own self. And that's why those practices are constantly sabotaged on those who try their hardest  by the wrong reasons. 

 

Daoism is about going with the flow. Not getting to where one's ambition points to. If you're not meant to get there, then don't try to force it. Accept the fate you have in this life, and most likely acceptance will lead to the dissolution of such fate and the birth of choice.

[freeform]

9 hours ago, Trunk said:

relevant video posted by Damo Mitchell this morning, "Stilling the Jing" with Qigong

 

 

 

The timing of this man is impeccable  

 

Very much this.

 

’still’ is the quality on the consciousness level and ‘consolidated’ is the same quality on the energetic level.

 

The practices that Damo is sharing in the YouTube channel are all very helpful (not the microcosmic orbit though - not for most people).

 

Essentially if you practice all these exercises he’s shared you’re getting the best ‘bang for the buck’ if health, inner comfort and well-being are your primary concerns at this time.

 

Cultivation proper, of course, requires more - but what he’s shared is really powerful despite its simplicity.

[freeform]

10 hours ago, -_sometimes said:

Btw best of luck on your retreat, do come back when you're done and let us all know what's up

 
🙏🏼

[Master Logray]

On 3/28/2022 at 1:03 AM, -_sometimes said:

I find when I limit activities I would consider Jing draining or dispersing .... - the temptation to indulge them grows ever stronger. If I'm burnt out from clearly Jing draining activities, I have no desire for anything. It's like a certain level of overflowing jing - beyond what is necessary for basic functioning - is necessary to 'want' to do things, so perhaps the enjoyment and desire to do 'things' increases as Jing increases.
 

 

To build up something, let say wealth, cutting down expenditure is a must.  Jing is like wealth.  Abandoning desires, activities, habits....  is just like reduce expenditure. 

 

The irony is when a person is having some success in reducing outlay, the temptation to use it increases.   A person could have been tired, short of time, short of cash, thereby avoiding activities.  After a while, he is bored now, with some cash and idle time, body recovered, the desires are even more appealing than before.  Many inner alchemists fail because of this reason. 

 

The statement "no sexual thoughts when the Jing is full" describes a situation of highly successful replenishment, which is rare.  This situation possibly comes from a few factors like years of conditioning the body, stilling the mind and the body has a very pleasant sensation that is comparable or even better than physical sex.