Power centers/vortices

[old3bob]

Ida and pingala nadi flows also have certain sounds and there is another when they balance and merge... I've heard high pitched E sounds on and off since the early 70's... don't hear them when mind is caught up in too much crap.

Edited April 5, 2022 by old3bob

[dwai]

36 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Ida and pingala nadi flows also have certain sounds and their is another when they balance and merge... I've heard high pitched E sounds on and off since the early 70's... don't hear them when mind is caught up in too much crap.

Yes. Indeed...it feels like left side and right side of the brain are vibrating at different frequencies. And then when the balancing/merging happens, one single resonant frequency and stillness. Usually, the different frequencies happen when the mind is caught up in crap. Once the mind is freed, balance follows. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by dwai

[old3bob]

So called, "devils tower" but also called "Bear Lodge" by American Indians is located in north-eastern Wyoming and is a powerful, prayerful place.  

[Lairg]

I live near a similar volcanic plug - narrower but with the same vertical striations.  It has a very strange energy to the West and various cosmic seeds underneath.   

 

I once took a friend to see that volcanic plug and she said that "it awaits the prophet from the desert".   That is not me, so I watch with interest.

 

Bear Lodge shown above also has cosmic seeds.  So who/what is the "bear" to which the mountain/lodge is dedicated?

Edited April 6, 2022 by Lairg

[old3bob]

"The following peoples have geographical, historical and/or cultural ties to the Tower:

Lakota	Cheyenne	Crow
Arapahoe	Shoshone	Kiowa

 

Aside from the Kiowa, all of these tribes are considered Northern Plains Tribes. All six of these groups lived in or near the region known today as the Black Hills. The Tower is situated in the northwest corner of this region. In addition to, or inclusive with, the six groups listed above, there are over two dozen individual tribes affiliated with the Tower.

Ceremonies may occur at the Tower any time of the year, & not always visible to  visitors.

NPS photo

Cultural and Spiritual Connections

The connections which tie American Indian culture to the place known as Devils Tower are both ancient and modern. Oral histories and sacred narratives explain not only the creation of the Tower, but also its significance to American Indians. They detail peoples' relationships with the natural world, and establish those relationships through literal and symbolic language. Today there are several sources one can reference to read the various oral histories. ²

Modern connections are maintained through personal and group ceremonies. Sweat lodges, sun dances, and others are still practiced at the monument today.¹ The most common ritual that takes place at the Tower are prayer offerings. Colorful cloths or bundles are placed near the Tower - commonly seen along the park's trails - and represent a personal connection to the site. They are similar to ceremonial objects from other religions, and may represent a person making an offering, a request, or simply in remembrance of a person or place. As with many religious ceremonies, they are a private to the individual or group. Please do not touch, disturb or remove prayer cloths or other religious artifacts at the park.

It is important to note a key difference between American Indian religions and many other contemporary religions (referred to as "western" or "near eastern" religions): a sense of place dominates the religion of American Indians, as opposed to the sense of time that dominates many western religions. Instead of a focus of chronological events and the order in which they are presented, American Indian religion focuses on a place and the significant events that are connected with that location. Although western religions have their important places, they do not hold the level of sacredness associated with the important places of American Indian religions.

 

The Sun Dance ceremony is often held at the park, although not every year. This photo shows the set up of a site from the 1980s.

NPS photo

Tribal Connections

Many of the tribes below have a sacred narrative, or oral history, about the creation of the Tower. You can read some of these oral histories on our park website.

Arapahoe

Arapahoes call Devils Tower "Bear's Tipi." ¹

Sherman Sage, an Arapahoe, said that his grandfather, Drying-Up-Hide, was buried near the Tower.²

Cheyenne

The Cheyenne call Devils Tower "Bear's Lodge," "Bear's House," "Bear's Tipi," and "Bear Peak."¹

The Cheyenne camped and hunted at Bear's Lodge in the winter and consider it a holy place.²

"A band of Cheyenne Indians went on one of its visits to 'Bear's Tipi' to worship the Great Spirit, as did many other tribes before the white man came. The Cheyenne braves took their families with them as they felt that would be safe, as Bear's Tipi was a holy place."²

Devils Tower is where Sweet Medicine died and it is his final earthly resting place. Sweet Medicine is the great culture hero of the Cheyenne who brought the Four Sacred Arrows to the tribe. The Four Sacred Arrows' sanctuary was located within a secret cave on the south side of Bear's Lodge.¹ Sweet Medicine also founded the Cheyenne Warrior Societies, tribal government, special laws, and ceremonies. As Sweet Medicine lay dying in a hut by Bear's Lodge, he foretold a dark prophecy of the coming of the horse;the disappearance of the old ways and the buffalo, to be replaced by slick animals with split hoofs the people must learn to eat (cattle). He told of the coming of white men, strangers called Earth Men who could fly above the earth, take thunder from light, and dig up the earth and drain it until it was dead.²

Crow

The Crow call Devils Tower "Bear Lodge." ¹

The Crow people were known to fast and worship at Devils Tower and built small stone "dream houses" there as part of these vision quests. The stone dream houses were about as long as a man is tall. A man would recline inside with his head to the east and feet to the west, "like the rising and setting sun."²

Kiowa

The Kiowa call Devils Tower "Aloft on a Rock" and "Tree Rock." The oral histories of the Kiowa people link Tree Rock with their astronomical knowledge.¹

"...origin memories of American Indian people reveal none anywhere 'as bright- and remote-' as the Kiowas memories of their days in the Black Hills and at Devils Tower."²

Lakota

The Lakota people call Devils Tower "Bear Lodge," "Bear Lodge Butte," "Grizzly Bear's Lodge," "Mythic-owl Mountain," "Grey Horn Butte," and "Ghost Mountain." ¹ Of the may tribes associated with the Tower, the Lakotas arguably have the strongest connections (or at least the most well-documented).

The Lakotas often had winter camps at Devils Tower, documented as far back as 1816. Lakotas have an ancient and sacred relationship with the Black Hills, including Bear Lodge and Inyan Kara. The Black Hills are the Lakotas' place of creation.¹

A Sioux legend tells of a Lakota band camped in the forest at the foot of Bear Lodge. They were attacked by a band of Crow. With the assistance of a huge bear, the Lakota were able to defeat the Crow.²

At Devils Tower, they fasted, prayed, left offerings, worshipped the "Great Mystery" (the essence of Lakota spiritual and religious life), and performed sweatlodge ceremonies. Lakota pray for health, welfare, and personal direction.¹

The healing ceremony is known to have been performed at Bear Lodge, conducted by a healing shaman. The Great Bear, Hu Numpa, imparted the sacred language and ceremonies of healing to Lakota shamans at Bear Lodge. In this way, Devils Tower is considered the birthplace of wisdom.¹

"White Bull told of 'honor men' among the people who went up close to Devils Tower for four-day periods, fasting and praying. There they slept on beds of sagebrush, taking no food or water during this time. Once, five great Sioux leaders-Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse, Red Cloud, Gall, and Spotted Tail-went there together to worship. We did not worship the butte, but worshipped our God."²

Vision quests are a very intense form of prayer requiring much preparation, fasting, purification rite (sweatlodge/inipi), and solitude.¹ It is a ritual integral to the construction of Lakota identity. In addition to learning lore and moral teachings, individuals who seek visions "often regain clarity of purpose in their lives and a secure identity as a member of their tribe." Men and women may seek a vision for a variety of reasons: to give thanks, to ask for spiritual guidance, or simply to pray in solitude.³ One of Devils Tower National Monument's archaeological sites, assessed by archaeologist Bruce Jones in 1991, is a post-1930's shelter made of stone and wood which could have been used for vision quests.

A Lakota legend tells of a warrior undergoing a vision quest at the base of Bear Lodge for two days. Suddenly, he found himself on the summit. He was frightened since he did not know how to get back down. After praying to the Great Spirit for assistance he fell asleep. Upon awakening, he found himself back down from the butte.²

The Lakotas traditionally held their sacred Sun Dance at Devils Tower around the summer solstice. The Belle Fourche River was known to the Lakotas as the Sun Dance River.¹ Bear Lodge is considered a sacred place of renewal. The Sun Dance is a ceremony of fasting and sacrifice that leads to the renewal of the individual and the group as a whole. The Sun Dance takes away the pain of the universe or damage to Nature. The participant suffers so that Nature stops suffering. The Sun Dance is "...the supreme rite of sacrifice for the society as a whole [and] a declaration of individual bravery and fortitude... Young men went through the Sun Dance annually to demonstrate their bravery as though they themselves had been captured and tortured, finally struggling to obtain their freedom."³ The tearing of the pierced flesh is symbolic of obtaining freedom and renewal. NPS records indicate that modern Sun Dance ceremonies have been held at Devils Tower since 1983.

The Lakotas also received the White Buffalo Calf Pipe, the most sacred object of the Lakota people, at Bear Lodge by White Buffalo Calf Woman, a legendary spiritual being. The sacred pipe's sanctuary was located within a secret cave on the north side of Bear Lodge.¹ In 1875, General George A. Custer swore by the pipe that he would not fight Indians again. "He who swears by the pipe and breaks oaths, comes to destruction, and his whole family dies, or sickness comes upon them."³ Pipes often are held as sacred objects used in vision quests, Sun Dances, sweatlodge rites, and in making peace.

Shoshone

The Eastern (Plains) Shoshone claim to have a sacred association with Devils Tower. Their religious world, however, is kept very secret and, as a result, cannot be documented at this time.

 

References

1. Hanson, J. R. and S. Chirinos. 1991. "Ethnographic Overview and Assessment of Devils Tower National Monument." University of Texas, Arlington.
2. Gunderson, M. A. 1988. "Devils Tower - Stories in Stone." High Plains Press. Glendo, Wyoming.
3. Evans, M. J. et. al. "NAGPRA Consultation and the National Park Service." An Ethnographic Report on Pipe Springs National Monument, Devils Tower National Monument, Tuzigoot National Monument, Montezuma National Monument, and the Western Archaeological and Conservation Center. March 4, 1993. Bureau of Applied R"

Edited April 6, 2022 by old3bob

[old3bob]

"The City of Refuge": another powerfully permeated place with special feeling of and for Hawaiian people and their ancient spiritual ways,   

Located on Kona side of the Big Island.  As far as I know It is called the city of refuge because in the olden times of the Hawaiian inter-island or tribal like wars (which were pretty horrific) anyone who made it to this site had agreed upon refuge and safety.      

Edited April 6, 2022 by old3bob

[Lairg]

So are power places just for worship/refuge or is there some functionality that needs to be managed/used by humans?

[stirling]

A lot of interesting topics being raised in this thread. It is one like it (more specifically about vortices/power centers) that actually led me to DaoBums. 

 

"Power Centers": I tend to move from one to another of these since some early spiritual experiences in my teens. I have lived in Salisbury UK, Ashland OR, Santa Cruz CA and now Port Townsend WA. I really started to perceive these places when I lived in the UK. The Salisbury Plain and Western England in general is just littered with these places, some more active than others. Of course there are Stonehenge and Avebury (one a very heavy, leaden sleepy feeling, the other an effervescent party spot), but also named all over the Ordinance Survey maps many MANY smaller places, sometimes on private land. When I moved to Port Townsend I sensed this was yet another, and the area has a number of spots that meet this description, and I suspect a few more than I have yet found. What are they? Early on I was obsessed with ley lines and meridians, but am now quite sure that they are simply places that bring our emotional/intellectual obscurations to light, and enable us perform pre-constructed or spontaneously constructed ritual to clear blockages. They are essential symbols, just as a tab of acid or a "red pill" is a symbol. Like everything else seen from prajna/wisdom they are empty of any self-existence or meaning apart from what we impute to them. 

 

Formless Beings: After reading some of the stuff that gets posted to this board I'm happy to look crazy here.  It is common after deep realization to begin to see formless beings. In between sleeping and waking I commonly see "monks" for lack of a better descriptor. They are silent, motionless, faceless and robed/hooded like the classic Christian monk. If I get up in the night there will sometimes be one in my line of sight in another room. Once there we three together as if in procession. A few times I have awakened to one by my bedside. My experience is a fairly common one, at least amongst Buddhists. There are other things, but it would take longer to describe. My teacher has also seen them and says that they are here to "help" (possibly deepen existing insight), and are harmless like everything else that appears to intrinsically exist. IMHO I am quite sure that, like the vortices, these beings do not have intrinsic reality and are more like symbols that the obscurations of appearing in the world as we currently do shape. Like all appearances they are both real and not real - sunyata. 

 

For those who are unfamiliar, our current Dalai Lama has done a fantastic job of explaining sunyata/emptiness in (fairly) plain terms:

 

According to the theory of emptiness, any belief in an objective reality grounded in the assumption of intrinsic, independent existence is simply untenable. All things and events, whether 'material', mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence ... Things and events are 'empty' in that they can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute 'being' that affords independence. - 14th Dalai Lama

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, Lairg said:

So are power places just for worship/refuge or is there some functionality that needs to be managed/used by humans?

Some are already established, IME. So the maintenance/management/usage is through ritualistic practices and meditation at the site. Some others need to be charged up for future generations -- like my teacher is doing in Devil's Lake WI.

 

Sometimes it is not a particular place, but an object that can be charged up, such as the Dhyanalinga consecrated by Sadhguru Jaggi Vasudev. I've not personally experienced it, but those who have (spiritual friends with high degree of advancement), have testified that it indeed is very powerful. One person fell into a 12-hr long samadhi just sitting in front of the dhyanalinga (he said, "I wanted to sit down for 10 mins, and before i knew it, 12 hours had gone by). 

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, stirling said:

Formless Beings: After reading some of the stuff that gets posted to this board I'm happy to look crazy here.  It is common after deep realization to begin to see formless beings. In between sleeping and waking I commonly see "monks" for lack of a better descriptor. They are silent, motionless, faceless and robed/hooded like the classic Christian monk. If I get up in the night there will sometimes be one in my line of sight in another room. Once there we three together as if in procession. A few times I have awakened to one by my bedside. My experience is a fairly common one, at least amongst Buddhists. There are other things, but it would take longer to describe. My teacher has also seen them and says that they are here to "help" (possibly deepen existing insight), and are harmless like everything else that appears to intrinsically exist. IMHO I am quite sure that, like the vortices, these beings do not have intrinsic reality and are more like symbols that the obscurations of appearing in the world as we currently do shape. Like all appearances they are both real and not real - sunyata. 

Indeed, I've had many such experiences as well. I think whenever we talk about these phenomena, it is good to consider that they are at a transactional level (however rarified and subtle it might be). These can be milestones, or tools for accelerating realization. 

 

Here's an article I'd written on the subject of milestones -- https://www.medhajournal.com/sometimes-we-need-the-spiritual-milestones-and-the-signposts/

[old3bob]

"According to the theory of emptiness, any belief in an objective reality grounded in the assumption of intrinsic, independent existence is simply untenable. All things and events, whether 'material', mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence ... Things and events are 'empty' in that they can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute 'being' that affords independence. - 14th Dalai Lama"

 

Someday he may come across the eternal unchanging Self (which imo the historic Buddha speaks of in a round about way as recorded in Buddhist scripture) then the Lama will be able to to refute his past and clever intellectual assumptions, if not then that is as it is.

 

[stirling]

28 minutes ago, old3bob said:

"According to the theory of emptiness, any belief in an objective reality grounded in the assumption of intrinsic, independent existence is simply untenable. All things and events, whether 'material', mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence ... Things and events are 'empty' in that they can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute 'being' that affords independence. - 14th Dalai Lama"

 

Someday he may come across the eternal unchanging Self (which imo the historic Buddha speaks of in a round about way as recorded in Buddhist scripture) then the Lama will be able to to refute his past and clever intellectual assumptions, if not then that is as it is.

 

Same thing, different terms. He has definitely come across it and knows what he is talking about in my experience.

[old3bob]

7 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Same thing, different terms. He has definitely come across it and knows what he is talking about in my experience.

 

again his words are clever, convoluted  and kind of profound sounding for or to an impressionable person but are still just rafts that get part way...Btw no knows for sure what another knows unless they meet as the Self which knows it-Self

[stirling]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Indeed, I've had many such experiences as well. I think whenever we talk about these phenomena, it is good to consider that they are at a transactional level (however rarified and subtle it might be). These can be milestones, or tools for accelerating realization. 

 

Here's an article I'd written on the subject of milestones -- https://www.medhajournal.com/sometimes-we-need-the-spiritual-milestones-and-the-signposts/

 

By any chance do you also see monks? My teacher says that it happens often enough that teachers trade stories about it. The behavior she shares is exactly the same as mine.

 

I agree that it is somehow transactional. Whatever it is that is transacted doesn't really translate into everyday cause/effect sense however. My experience is that they show up more if I am open to them. I typically bow to them if I am up, or send them metta, or thank them for whatever it is they may be attempting to impart. They have also very occasionally left what initially appear as 3 dimensional "gifts" that melt when physical perspective is shifted. What they are meant to impart or mean is seems to be impossible to parse. Insight continues to deepen, so I consider them to be entirely benevolent, as I do everything else.

 

Looking forward to your article.

 

Bows. 

[stirling]

Just now, old3bob said:

 

again his words are clever, convoluted  and kind of profound sounding for or to an impressionable person but are still just rafts that get part way...Btw no knows for sure what another knows unless they meet as the Self which knows it-Self

 

Your clever is my clarity. I appreciate his (what I perceive as) precise language, but yes... still rafts. Really it's just "this"... "now"... and we absolutely agree that Self/Emptiness knows when it meets itself. Having said that... how is it possible that "Self" meets anything else? 

 

Bows.

[dwai]

17 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

By any chance do you also see monks? My teacher says that it happens often enough that teachers trade stories about it. The behavior she shares is exactly the same as mine.

At one stage of my life (in my 20s), I used to see Himalayan Sadhus every night -- in my dreams, in between sleeping and waking -- they used to call me to join them. This happened every night for months until the day I decided to get married. Then the main Sadhu, a kindly old man said, "He's not going to make it this time." 

A couple of decades later, while I was visiting the Himalayas, they told my teacher that he was to be my guide/mentor this time and that I will have to come back again to complete a mission. 

 

Later on, it became visits from other (dimensional) beings (for example one visited me with the head of a fox and then split into nine fox beings). And then it became visits from sages and deities during the day, in waking time as well. The last big one, was by Lord Krishna -- when he visited me, there was so much light and such a high tone that accompanied it, that I had to close my "eyes", bow my head and say "Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna"  -- and I was embraced by him. It was like looking into the sun as the sun came hurtling towards you...

 

Now it only happens when I want it to happen -- ie when I'm looking to connect with specific deities or Gurus (works better with those whom I have a connection with). 

Quote

 

I agree that it is somehow transactional. Whatever it is that is transacted doesn't really translate into everyday cause/effect sense however. My experience is that they show up more if I am open to them. I typically bow to them if I am up, or send them metta, or thank them for whatever it is they may be attempting to impart. They have also very occasionally left what initially appear as 3 dimensional "gifts" that melt when physical perspective is shifted. What they are meant to impart or mean is seems to be impossible to parse. Insight continues to deepen, so I consider them to be entirely benevolent, as I do everything else.

 

Looking forward to your article.

 

Bows. 

Also, I am visited by those (there have friends and family as well), who have either just departed or are on the verge. I usually send them love and direct light towards them. This happens to my teacher on a regular basis too -- something to do with my lineage through him.

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by dwai

[old3bob]

22 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Your clever is my clarity. I appreciate his (what I perceive as) precise language, but yes... still rafts. Really it's just "this"... "now"... and we absolutely agree that Self/Emptiness knows when it meets itself. Having said that... how is it possible that "Self" meets anything else? 

 

Bows.

 

appearances or veils..

I'd say "Self" is far beyond affirmation or negation and also conflation with emptiness by mind.

Edited April 6, 2022 by old3bob

[stirling]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

At one stage of my life (in my 20s), I used to see Himalayan Sadhus every night -- in my dreams, in between sleeping and waking -- they used to call me to join them. This happened every night for months until the day I decided to get married. Then the main Sadhu, a kindly old man said, "He's not going to make it this time." A couple of decades later, while I was visiting the Himalayas, they told my teacher that he was to be my guide/mentor this time and that I will have to come back again to complete a mission.

 

I had two dreams in my 30's a year or so apart. In one I followed a grey haired ngakpa (top-knot gave him away) around a garden crying... begging him to be my teacher or help me find my teacher. He was so gentle, smiling at me that it wasn't time, but that I should be diligent and keep practicing. I was working through 100,000 recitations of the Dudjom Ngondro preliminary teaching at the time. 

 

Quote

Also, I am visited by those (there have friends and family as well), who have either just departed or are on the verge. I usually send them love and direct light towards them. This happens to my teacher on a regular basis too -- something to do with my lineage through him.

 

I also have this happen. I think most people would call them "dead", but I just think of them as un-incarnated beings in pain. Sometimes they way they appear is truly horrific, though they aren't frightening to me. I naturally do the same practice you do for them, more or less - a great way to approach all phenomena, IMHO.

[stirling]

10 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

appearances or veils..

I'd say "Self" is far beyond affirmation or negation and also conflation with emptiness by mind.

 

Well... sure. Still, if we are here discussing it ALL our best attempts will only "fail well", yes? Do you know some way to describe it that has any accuracy? I personally think "Self" is as terrible as anything else, since it doesn't really have any "self" as a being distinct from anything else. I think "neti neti" isn't bad:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti

 

Or "not two"? One? The list goes on, but all fail ultimate where the nature of language must be subject/object and therefore inadequate.

 

-

It isn't "mind" that is empty. It is that all of the objects that appear to be separate have no intrinsic existence of their own... or that ALL appearances are "Mind" - the same as "Self" in this case.

Edited April 6, 2022 by stirling

[old3bob]

2 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Well... sure. Still, if we are here discussing it ALL our best attempts will only "fail well", yes? Do you know some way to describe it that has any accuracy? I personally think "Self" is as terrible as anything else, since it doesn't really have any "self" as a being distinct from anything else. I think "neti neti" isn't bad:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti

 

Or "not two"? One? The list goes on, but all fail ultimate where the nature of language must be subject/object and therefore inadequate.

 

the Upanishads (revealed from Self realized Rishis) do a good job at pointing... and have no problem with the term Self.

[old3bob]

55 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Well... sure. Still, if we are here discussing it ALL our best attempts will only "fail well", yes? Do you know some way to describe it that has any accuracy? I personally think "Self" is as terrible as anything else, since it doesn't really have any "self" as a being distinct from anything else. I think "neti neti" isn't bad:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti

 

Or "not two"? One? The list goes on, but all fail ultimate where the nature of language must be subject/object and therefore inadequate.

-

It isn't "mind" that is empty. It is that all of the objects that appear to be separate have no intrinsic existence of their own... or that ALL appearances are "Mind" - the same as "Self" in this case.

 

 

Umm, not the same, "as Self in this case" although that may be a common take of orthodox Buddhism,  but I'd say it is not the take of Sanatana Dharma.

[Lairg]

Typical power centers connect horizontally to other centers - like meridians in the human body - and vertically to relevant planets and stars - thus forming meridians in the body of the solar system and the body of the galaxy.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Lairg

[old3bob]

 

"According to the theory of emptiness, any belief in an objective reality grounded in the assumption of intrinsic, independent existence is simply untenable. All things and events, whether 'material', mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence ... Things and events are 'empty' in that they can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute 'being' that affords independence. - 14th Dalai Lama" 

 

Up to a point I can see what the Dalai Lama is saying above...

but then there comes a difference and divergence in sayings for me compared to his in that I'd bring up what could be called the "transcendent" or "beyond categories" which is not dependent upon categories nor empty, thus is of immutable essence, intrinsic reality and is absolute or Supreme 'Being' or Brahman, which granted is not separate in a certain way (or dualistic if you will) but also is not bound by or conditioned by categories of derivatives - so and in a certain way is independent of them or their goings on (or the laws that govern them) YET and importantly is (non-dualistically) connected to same as Source . 

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by old3bob

[stirling]

16 hours ago, Lairg said:

Typical power centers connect horizontally to other centers - like meridians in the human body - and vertically to relevant planets and stars - thus forming meridians in the body of the solar system and the body of the galaxy.

 

In an early mystical experience in my 20's I could see that there were vertices connecting all beings and things. It lasted for about half an hour with varying degrees of depth. IMHO this was a visualization of the very real principle of dependent origination, as represented by something like Indra's Net:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra's_net

 

[stirling]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

"According to the theory of emptiness, any belief in an objective reality grounded in the assumption of intrinsic, independent existence is simply untenable. All things and events, whether 'material', mental or even abstract concepts like time, are devoid of objective, independent existence ... Things and events are 'empty' in that they can never possess any immutable essence, intrinsic reality or absolute 'being' that affords independence. - 14th Dalai Lama" 

 

Up to a point I can see what the Dalai Lama is saying above...

but then there comes a difference and divergence in sayings for me compared to his in that I'd bring up what could be called the "transcendent" or "beyond categories" which is not dependent upon categories nor empty, thus is of immutable essence, intrinsic reality and is absolute or Supreme 'Being' or Brahman, which granted is not separate in a certain way (or dualistic if you will) but also is not bound by or conditioned by categories of derivatives - so and in a certain way is independent of them or their goings on (or the laws that govern them) YET and importantly is (non-dualistically) connected to same as Source .

 

I greatly appreciate your effort to meet me half way.

 

At the center of the understanding is both an emptiness, but also a unity. That emptiness/unity can be characterized in many ways, none of which are strictly correct, IMHO. The best way to apprehend it is to drop any ideas about what it is or the accuracy of any explanation.

 

I prostrate to Gautama, 
Who through compassion, 
Taught the true doctrine,
 Which leads to the relinquishing of all views.
— Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika (Fundamental Wisdom
of the Middle Way)

 

Not knowing is most intimate.
— Luohan Guichen, Case 20 of The Book of Equanimity

 

If even one thought appears, that is already a mistake.
— Zen Master So Sahn, The Mirror of Zen

 

I do not teach Buddhism. I only teach don’t know.
—Zen Master Seung Sahn, The Compass of Zen

 

What you are saying appears to me to be in complete alignment with what is above. If it does not to you I understand, and am happy to disagree with no hard feelings.