Power centers/vortices

[dwai]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

In an early mystical experience in my 20's I could see that there were vertices connecting all beings and things. It lasted for about half an hour with varying degrees of depth. IMHO this was a visualization of the very real principle of dependent origination, as represented by something like Indra's Net:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra's_net

 

My teacher tells me that he sees a spiderweb and each node of the spiderweb is the access to a different dimension. I've not seen that, but I have had in meditation a vision of infinite overlapping layers (like that of an onion) - first thought that came to mind was, holograms within holograms. 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I greatly appreciate your effort to meet me half way.

 

At the center of the understanding is both an emptiness, but also a unity. That emptiness/unity can be characterized in many ways, none of which are strictly correct, IMHO. The best way to apprehend it is to drop any ideas about what it is or the accuracy of any explanation.

 

I prostrate to Gautama, 
Who through compassion, 
Taught the true doctrine,
 Which leads to the relinquishing of all views.
— Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika (Fundamental Wisdom
of the Middle Way)

 

Not knowing is most intimate.
— Luohan Guichen, Case 20 of The Book of Equanimity

 

If even one thought appears, that is already a mistake.
— Zen Master So Sahn, The Mirror of Zen

 

I do not teach Buddhism. I only teach don’t know.
—Zen Master Seung Sahn, The Compass of Zen

 

What you are saying appears to me to be in complete alignment with what is above. If it does not to you I understand, and am happy to disagree with no hard feelings.

 

 

 

when looking from a low lying  trench the mountain top seems distant and unclear, but that of the mountain top can see directly into said trench and knows without doubt...

Edited April 7, 2022 by old3bob

[dwai]

Swami Sarvapriyananda explains the "differences" and final convergence of the Buddhist and Advaita Vedanta systems in this video --

Spoiler

 

 

[forestofclarity]

I am curious as to how people determine that what is see in visions, or visionary beings, are not purely subjective. 

[forestofclarity]

On 4/6/2022 at 2:47 PM, stirling said:

It isn't "mind" that is empty. 

 

Not to get fussy, but since HHDL was invoked, this is pretty much the Chittamatra view that is fairly widely condemned as falling short of a deep understanding of emptiness.

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

I am curious as to how people determine that what is see in visions, or visionary beings, are not purely subjective. 

Everything is subjective  

 

But more seriously, there energetic signatures associated - like light, HT. Also other signs if we choose to merge with them — heat, vibrations etc. 

 

In cases of visits by dying people, sometimes it happens before they leave the body or just as they are about to do so. For example, I was visited by a friend, while I was in India, in the Himalayas, at 2:30 AM, while I was asleep. He was in the US. Later that morning, I got the news that he had passed away, around the same time as I got a visit from him. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by dwai

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I greatly appreciate your effort to meet me half way.

 

At the center of the understanding is both an emptiness, but also a unity. That emptiness/unity can be characterized in many ways, none of which are strictly correct, IMHO. The best way to apprehend it is to drop any ideas about what it is or the accuracy of any explanation.

 

I prostrate to Gautama, 
Who through compassion, 
Taught the true doctrine,
 Which leads to the relinquishing of all views.
— Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika (Fundamental Wisdom
of the Middle Way)

 

Not knowing is most intimate.
— Luohan Guichen, Case 20 of The Book of Equanimity

 

If even one thought appears, that is already a mistake.
— Zen Master So Sahn, The Mirror of Zen

 

I do not teach Buddhism. I only teach don’t know.
—Zen Master Seung Sahn, The Compass of Zen

 

What you are saying appears to me to be in complete alignment with what is above. If it does not to you I understand, and am happy to disagree with no hard feelings.

 

 

 

Thanks man and no hard problemo's... :-)

[stirling]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

I am curious as to how people determine that what is see in visions, or visionary beings, are not purely subjective. 

 

My understanding is that all such things are merely appearances in consciousness and are therefore no more real than anything else - which is to say dreamlike at best.

[stirling]

4 hours ago, old3bob said:

when looking from a low lying  trench the mountain top seems distant and unclear, but that of the mountain top can see directly into said trench and knows without doubt...

 

I am sure.

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

My teacher tells me that he sees a spiderweb and each node of the spiderweb is the access to a different dimension. I've not seen that, but I have had in meditation a vision of infinite overlapping layers (like that of an onion) - first thought that came to mind was, holograms within holograms. 

 

I was shown countless threads connected to countless beings with the ancient weaver of youth and beauty singing her never ending yet always new and sacred song into the loom of Earth's tapestry...

Edited April 7, 2022 by old3bob

[stirling]

1 hour ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Not to get fussy, but since HHDL was invoked, this is pretty much the Chittamatra view that is fairly widely condemned as falling short of a deep understanding of emptiness.

 

Agreed. I would subscribe to the Shentong view -  if I'm choosing. 
 

Quote

 

Shentong does not accept the Cittamatra view that consciousness is truly existent. They hold the Madhyamaka view that it is non-arising and without self-nature. They consider themselves to be the Great Madhyamikas because their system involves not only recognizing freedom from all concep­ tual contrivance, but also the realization of the Wisdom Mind (Jnana) that is free from all conceptual contrivance. 

This non-conceptual Wisdom Mind is not the object of the conceptualizing process and so is not negated by Madhyamaka reasoning. Therefore, it can be said to be the only thing that has absolute and true existence. 

It is important to understand that this true existence does not mean that it can be conceptualized. If it were even the most subtle object of the conceptual process, it could be refuted by Prasangika reasoning. The non-conceptual Wisdom Mind is not something that even supreme wisdom (prajna) can take as its object. Anything that can be an object of consciousness, however pure and refined, is dependently arising and has no true existence. 

So what is the non-conceptual Wisdom Mind? It is something that one realizes through means other than the conceptual process. One experiences it directly just as it is and any conceptual fabrica­tion obscures it. - "Progressive Stages of Meditation on Emptiness", Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche

 

 

A fantastic and challenging book. 

[stirling]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

My teacher tells me that he sees a spiderweb and each node of the spiderweb is the access to a different dimension. I've not seen that, but I have had in meditation a vision of infinite overlapping layers (like that of an onion) - first thought that came to mind was, holograms within holograms. 

 

Yes! Holograms is my understanding - every single "point" reflected in every other single "point". Space/time/self completely collapsed. 

 

I'm not sure how/where/when any separate dimensions would exist, but I'm open to seeing how that might arise. 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

I was shown countless threads connected to countless beings with the ancient weaver of youth and beauty singing her never ending yet always new and sacred song into the loom of Earth's tapestry...

 

"The Norns are at the base of the ash tree Yggdrasil (or, according to some versions, above the Bifröst bridge). They spin threads and weave the tapestry of fates. Each person's life is a thread in their loom. The length of the thread is the length "

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns

[forestofclarity]

11 hours ago, stirling said:

 

My understanding is that all such things are merely appearances in consciousness and are therefore no more real than anything else - which is to say dreamlike at best.

 

Well, certainly, but it is important to distinguish between essence and function. One cannot purchase an illusory waking state home with illusory money from a dream, for instance. There are still valid and invalid relative cognitions. The wisdom of equality is not necessarily the same as the wisdom of discrimination. 

 

12 hours ago, dwai said:

In cases of visits by dying people, sometimes it happens before they leave the body or just as they are about to do so. For example, I was visited by a friend, while I was in India, in the Himalayas, at 2:30 AM, while I was asleep. He was in the US. Later that morning, I got the news that he had passed away, around the same time as I got a visit from him. 

 

It is interesting because the teachers I've had have been fairly split on the issue. Most of my Buddhist teachers have said that most visions, etc. are purely dreamlike illusions (to a point) merely to be discarded. Non-Buddhist teachers, often have an opposite view, especially those involved in energy or magical work. 

 

So in this example, how would one distinguish between a vision of a friend who died vs the friend who died is actually visiting?

 

 

[doc benway]

14 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I am curious as to how people determine that what is see in visions, or visionary beings, are not purely subjective. 

 

One way I look at it is that visions are not purely subjective because they depend on causes and conditions.

[dwai]

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Well, certainly, but it is important to distinguish between essence and function. One cannot purchase an illusory waking state home with illusory money from a dream, for instance. There are still valid and invalid relative cognitions. The wisdom of equality is not necessarily the same as the wisdom of discrimination. 

 

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

It is interesting because the teachers I've had have been fairly split on the issue. Most of my Buddhist teachers have said that most visions, etc. are purely dreamlike illusions (to a point) merely to be discarded. Non-Buddhist teachers, often have an opposite view, especially those involved in energy or magical work. 
 

It depends on what perspective one takes. From a transactional perspective, where one only considers the physical layer, only waking state phenomena matter.

 

If one considers the subtle and causal layers, then the dreams, visions, etc  can be relevant. 

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

So in this example, how would one distinguish between a vision of a friend who died vs the friend who died is actually visiting?

 

 

In some cases, it is relatively simple — if you didn’t know that the person was sick, and/or dying, and their visit coincides with their passing (one finds out about their demise after said visit  - as was in my example).
 

But not all such visions are dreams — some are in a meditative state or waking state. In such cases, there can a distinct awareness of multiple “dimensions”, but it’s harder to explain in words. 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Well, certainly, but it is important to distinguish between essence and function. One cannot purchase an illusory waking state home with illusory money from a dream, for instance. There are still valid and invalid relative cognitions. The wisdom of equality is not necessarily the same as the wisdom of discrimination.

 

...or the obverse - it seems to me that a dream has its own entirely believable logical consistency when you are in it, just as the waking world does. In my experience a good portion of the appearance of consistency is brought by our thinking mind covering the inconsistencies in either the waking OR dreaming experience. However, as we drop obscurations the curtain is slowly pulled back. The illusory nature of time/space/self is gradually unraveled in all states of wakefulness, including deep sleep. 

 

I find it interesting that in Advaita the "waking state" is considered to be the least conscious, with deep sleep being the clearest. This makes sense to me.

 

Relative cognitions may happen, but it would a delusion to think that they ultimately are made by a "self", wouldn't it?

 

It must be possible to see from prajna (awake awareness) in all states of wakefulness, with practice. IMHO Wisdom is just wisdom - seeing the non-dual nature of reality in every moment, in all (temporary) states and conditions that arise and pass without discernment.

 

It's pointed to in this old chestnut:

 

So, Shariputra, in emptiness there’s no form, no feeling, no perception, no memory, no consciousness;
no eye, no ear, no nose,
no tongue, no body, and no mind;
no shape, no sound, no smell,
no taste, no touch, and no thought;
no eye nor mind, nor any other means of perception,
no ignorance nor old age and death, nor any causal link,
and also no end of causal links,
no suffering, no source of suffering, no relief from suffering, and no way out of suffering, no wisdom, no gaining wisdom, no failing to gain wisdom.

So, Shariputra, without gaining anything,
bodhisattvas find refuge in Prajnaparamita,
living without walls in the mind, and so without fears,
seeing through delusions and finally seeing through nirvana. - Buddha, Heart Sutra

[old3bob]

the Upanishads and that that they point towards easily refute all that....

 

btw we are not in a Buddhist or Hindu forum where going whole hog along such lines would be more appropriate imo.

Edited April 8, 2022 by old3bob

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, old3bob said:

the Upanishads and that that they point towards easily refute all that....

 

Refute what?

[old3bob]

47 minutes ago, dwai said:

Refute what?

 

what Adi Shankaracharya also refuted....for instance and in a small nutshell:

 

"A central concern for Shankara, in his objections against Buddhism, is what he perceives as nihilism of the Buddhists.  Shankara states that there "must be something beyond cognition, namely a cognizer," which he asserts is the self-evident Atman or witness. Buddhism, according to Shankara, denies the cognizer"

 

(but of course you probably came across such as the little quote above a very, very long time ago?)

Edited April 8, 2022 by old3bob

[Lairg]

I find it useful when waking from a strong dream,  to step back into the scene and start to interact with the characters and context.  I do experiments with the characters to test my understandings.

 

On occasion I have had a dream come 90% true the following day. 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

"A central concern for Shankara, in his objections against Buddhism, is what he perceives as nihilism of the Buddhists.  Shankara states that there "must be something beyond cognition, namely a cognizer," which he asserts is the self-evident Atman or witness. Buddhism, according to Shankara, denies the cognizer"

 

(but of course you probably came across such as the little quote above a very, very long time ago?)

 

Is there a quote directly from Shankara on the topic? 

 

It is common as an immediate stage of enlightenment to feel that as an enlightened "being" one stands apart from reality as a witness and characterizes themselves as that which witnesses. My experience is that this can also be seen through. 

 

Charges of nihilism against Buddhism misunderstand it  - "who" precisely would be the nihilist in a unity, or where all appearances are recognized as having no "self"? 

 

My answers are generally peppered with Buddhism, Chan, and Taoism, though Buddhism is what I know best. As the Buddha said:

 

“The dharma too is like a raft. It serves the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of grasping." - Buddha, Alagaddupama Sutra

 

What does it matter where the wisdom comes from if it points to reality as it is? On that point, I am in full agreement with Hui Hai:

 

"The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

Ultimately I am positive that the wisdom itself has no tradition. Why cling to the raft?

 

-

 

...reminds me of another quote:

 

For the unified mind in accord with the Way
all self-centered striving ceases. - Seng T'san

 

Sounds like Daoism, dunnit?

 

 

Quote

btw we are not in a Buddhist or Hindu forum where going whole hog along such lines would be more appropriate imo.

 

I'm in this thread for topic, not the discussion of emptiness, but because I am quite convinced that it is at the center of ALL conversations about such things here it does tend to come up. Not looking to pick a fight, but it looks like there is a Buddhism forum right alongside the Hindu one right here:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/forum/1-general-discussion/

I am just answering questions posed to me.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

It is common as an immediate stage of enlightenment to feel that as an enlightened "being" one stands apart from reality as a witness and characterizes themselves as that which witnesses.

 

I tend to think this is the last step before first stage (mental) enlightenment. 

 

The junior initiate, having learned to stand apart from the human mass, emotionally and mentally, must now give up the hard-won isolation and commit to the oneness of all, immersing again but with very different awareness and intent.

 

This step, with other preconditions, qualifies the initiate to be admitted to the communion of his/her peers

Edited April 8, 2022 by Lairg

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Is there a quote directly from Shankara on the topic? 

 

It is common as an immediate stage of enlightenment to feel that as an enlightened "being" one stands apart from reality as a witness and characterizes themselves as that which witnesses. My experience is that this can also be seen through. 

 

Charges of nihilism against Buddhism misunderstand it  - "who" precisely would be the nihilist in a unity, or where all appearances are recognized as having no "self"? 

 

My answers are generally peppered with Buddhism, Chan, and Taoism, though Buddhism is what I know best. As the Buddha said:

 

“The dharma too is like a raft. It serves the purpose of crossing over, not the purpose of grasping." - Buddha, Alagaddupama Sutra

 

What does it matter where the wisdom comes from if it points to reality as it is? On that point, I am in full agreement with Hui Hai:

 

"The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

Ultimately I am positive that the wisdom itself has no tradition. Why cling to the raft?

 

...reminds me of another quote:

 

For the unified mind in accord with the Way
all self-centered striving ceases. - Seng T'san

 

Sounds like Daoism, dunnit?

 

I'm in this thread for topic, not the discussion of emptiness, but because I am quite convinced that it is at the center of ALL conversations about such things here it does tend to come up. Not looking to pick a fight, but it looks like there is a Buddhism forum right alongside the Hindu one right here:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/forum/1-general-discussion/

I am just answering questions posed to me.

 

it seems like there is tons of commentary to be found  on the internet about Adi Shankara teachings compared to there not being tons of direct quotes.  But a main and directly stated  one  is on the reality of Atman/Brahman which is contrary to Buddhist teachings

[awaken]

腎開竅於耳，練功當中聽到的聲音，都跟腎氣有關，不用想得太神奇，這是很常見的。

至於蟬叫聲，在我很小的時候，什麼都沒練，就經常聽到高音的蟬叫聲。

肝開竅於眼，等到氣進入肝，就會開始出現肝魂，到時候你就知道，感官的過度不是只有聲音。

所以你出現聲音，就表示你已經進入到腎的精華部分。

腎藏志，脾藏意，肝藏魂，其餘類推。

 

 

 

至於看到蜘蛛網，有兩種可能，一種就是烏肝為背景的線條，一種就是二階段陽生的內景。

要看是不是實體的幾何，如果是實體的幾何，那就屬於二階段陽生。如果只是單色光背景下的蜘蛛網線條，那就是烏肝。

線條也不是只有蜘蛛網線條，也有各種幾何圖形，甚至樹枝狀不規則，甚至雪花狀都有。

也是很常見的內景現象。另外，我可以跟你保證，蜘蛛網絕對沒有連到不同的維度。那就是一種內景。

 

 

The kidneys open to the ears, and the sounds you hear during qigong practice are all related to the kidney qi, so don’t think too much about it, it’s very common.

As for the sound of cicadas, when I was very young, I often heard high-pitched cicadas without practicing anything.

The liver opens its orifices to the eyes, and when the qi enters the liver, the liver soul begins to appear. At that time, you will know that the excess of the senses is not the only sound.

So when you make a sound, it means that you have entered the essence of the kidney.

The kidney stores the will, the spleen stores the meaning, the liver stores the soul, and so on.

As for seeing the spider web, there are two possibilities, one is the lines with black liver as the background, and the other is the interior scene of the second stage of yangsheng.

It depends on whether it is solid geometry. If it is solid geometry, it belongs to the second stage of yang birth. If it's just spider web lines against a monochromatic light background, it's black liver.

The lines are not only spider web lines, but also various geometric figures, even irregular branches and even snowflakes.

It is also a very common interior phenomenon. Also, I can assure you that the cobwebs are absolutely not connected to different dimensions. That is an interior view.

 

我的一個學生的二階段陽生出現過類似這種的圖形。

Edited April 9, 2022 by awaken