Native Tibetan shamanistic Bonpo

[Nungali]

Native Tibetan shamanistic Bonpo  is supposed to have had three different phases. The first phase was the native Shamanistic religion, the second was the Pamir/Sogdian influence and the third was the Buddhist .

 

Does anyone have info or sources on the second  ;  the Pamir/Sogdian influence on native Tibetan shamanistic Bonpo ? 

[Nungali]

... I guess not .

 

I will go on anyway .

 

Over the years I have posted information  and some of my personal research on south Central Asia . I first became interested when I discovered that a lost civilisation had been discovered there , on par with the the worlds' first great 4  ( Mesoptamia, Egypt, Indus and China  ... all centred around river/s ) , this one different , centred on alluvial desert fans / oasis .

 

https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/central-asias-lost-civilization

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria–Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

 

( That some got unfortunately raided, criticised and argued  by the extremely ignorant and uneducated.   , so I hesitate to link to that information .... interspaced with rubbish,  eg an argument  that there where never any such people as the  Indo-Iranians ... and laughed and mocked at that I even suggested it , even though I  continually posted many references to them in academia and for the layman. )

 

These appear to be the people that started a whole lot of 'esoterica' in the 'west'  ... or that entered the west  ( astrology , medicine , magic ( a word even directly evolved from their descendants ; 'Magi'  - 'Magicians ' ) advance civilisation, the first appearance of  'science of the mind '  ( a type of 'philosophical Buddhism ' / psychology ,  first occurrences of 'egalitarianism' , etc .

 

Now, it appears not only did this knowldege ( via oral teachings  and 'myth' ) pass on into latter Zoroastrianism religion, but into ' Pre Buddhist Buddhism' - early Bon religion .

 

The following are some extracts that I posted elsewhere .  As more info comes to light from time to time ,  I will add it here .

 

Feel free to make WORTHWHILE contributions and criticisms .

 

 

 

Aside ; Do you know of any links between ancient ( Bronze age ) Tibet and the Pamir Mts peoples ?


[ I have been looking into possible other historical locations for 'Shamballa' - the 'Bhuddhist myth' claims 'Himalayas' , but I thinking they may have appropriated an older story and made it 'Buddhist history' and changed the location , or where not accurate about its location . There are various possibilities .... including ' Pamirs ' ( 'The roof of the world ' )

songtsen said:

Yes ..TIbet is divided among China, India, Nepal and Pakistan but the people living in the area (even including muslim Sbaltis) identify as Tibetans.

Not much is known regarding bronze age Tibet but the religion was influenced by the Pamir Mts people. Pamir was the India of TIbet in the bronze and early iron age.

Specul8 said :
Oooooh ! Bingo ! This a theory I had for some time , with no back up . Where can I find out more info about this ?

Can you supply links ?

......

I will not put down too much here , at the moment , this is more of an intro . Its about a possible ancient lost 'civilisation' in the Pamir Mountains that had influence in the east and the west ( Old traditions in the east say 'wisdom' came from the west , and in the west they say it came from the east .) ; that the Pamir 'Hub' ( The Roof of the World ) was the location for the early 'mythical' Shamballa Kingdom ; that these people where in contact with, an an influence on, or an extension of , BMAC people to the west and early 'Tibetans' - time period ; preferably , Early Bronze Age , but also Middle and Late Bronze Age into Early Iron age

LOCATIONS:

The Pamir Hub ; the Roof of the World .

[Nungali]

 

 

Location;

 

 

The Pamir Knot'  holds access to a short cut  going through to Tarim Basin  ( ancient  'Euro Mummies' ) on the trade routes ( later to become 'Silk Routes' ) ,

 

 

on an intersection of the North South and east West trade routes  ( very extensive , lapis lazuli stone found its way from there to ancient Egypt )  and linked together areas of ancient China , the Indus valley ( Harrapans), Middle east ( proto-Elamites )  and vast areas of 'civilised' northern Steppe country up into Siberia ;

 

 

 

- see  'Sintasha Culture' .

 

https://www.thehindu.com/news/international//article59927562.ece

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkaim

etc.

 

Here is the Buddhist mandala interpretation of  ' Shamballa '  , we can see terrain similarities  with the above first image of the 'Knot' in Pamirs ;

 

[Nungali]

Central kingdom, surrounded by others , ringed by mountains ; a range and river on all four sides

 

 

(Also the myth states a 'circular' river around the middle - there is no circular river , its like a big horseshoe , but more on this river and its possible change of course later ) .

 

I will post more on this later .

 

Songsten :

Ancient tibetan zcshangzcshong were based in western tibet ... Ngari region in particular. These areas are very close to Xinjiang and Tajikistan.

Bon have different origin myths to Buddhists. They believed that Tibetans descend from an egg in which both goodness and evil reside.

Native religion before Bon and Buddhism was full of human and animal sacrifice. Buddhists still believe that they stopped the human sacrifice while Bon says that their Buddha Tonpa sherab stopped it first.

The arrival of Tonba Sherab into animal sacrificing Tibetans and his subsequent reform of native tibetan religion can be called modern Bon. He is almost a Buddha equivalent with royal lineage but from Tajikistan. He is even seen as a cousin to sakyamuni.

After Buddhism arrived bon religion changed even further. They copied almost everything from Buddhism and modern Bon is almost indistinguishable from Buddhist.

So Tajikistan and areas nearby were very to development of early tibet. Even the clothes that imperial Tibetans wear are directly from Sogdian/areas near by.

 

The myth of shambhala may have some pre Buddhist root but it came from central asian monks. After the defeat of Buddhist kingdoms many monks sought refuge in tibet and there they invented the myth of shambhala and all conquering Gesar who would ride out one day and kill and defeat Muslims and unbelievers

 

S; " Yes, and scanning google earth it appears there are links between the two .

For many the whole area looks unpassable or even hostile to existence . Yet going down into some of those remote valleys , some are exceptionally beautiful, lush and fertile .

Also, the 'Pamir people' could have held the southern routes through to the Tarim Basin ;

 

( 'Silk Route' map .... but the passes and route would have been used long before silk passed along them )

- also we need to consider climate change ; the area may have been a lot warmer in the past .
Climate change ( a great cold and deep snow coming ) is talked about in the Avestas .... which comes from a much earlier time and oral tradition from when they where written down . I will address this later .

 

Another 'link' . The early Mazdaen religion ( Paoiryo-tkaesha { Avestan } - keepers of the original ancient law , held the concept of good and evil 'mainyu' ( my interpretation of mainyu is ' the potential for the mind to go in ether of these directions '

 

And here, another similarity with reformation of 'old religion' banning animal sacrifice and substituting it with 'yasna' - offerings .... and further ; the first record we have (in Zoroastrianism ) of animal rights legislation .

 

From Tajikistan eh ? Is it thought that Tajikistan had an early Buddhist influence and that influenced Tonba Sherab or he ( and whatever 'movement ' , school or philosophy ) pre existed in Tajikistan ?
 

It appears some ideas from there did spread to the east . As I said earlier , I am tracking the origins of some concepts in BMAC society , early or pre Zoroastrianism and the place where these ideas first developed .

The Buddhists later referred to this place as Shamballa , some Zoroastrian researchers try to equate it with ' Airyana Vaeja ' - the 'Zoroastrian Homeland ' ( there has been some confusion about this as some relate Airyana Vaeja to the Aryan Urheimat ) . Here, I am tracing back, not specifically the origins of a people, but the origins of an idea, a new philosophy ( for that time )

- I am awaiting delivery of a book on this ; 'The Bronze Age Civilisation of Central Asia ' - C.C. Lamburg-Karlovsky . I have read Hierbert's ' Bronze Age Oasis Civilisations of Central Asia ' , but that mostly focuses on north south dynamics ( Aryan north movement in BMAC and then into India ) , this one focuses on east west dynamic .

 

The link I made to the paper in the Mongolian thread talks about how this myth was used for 'political purposes' but also looks at an identification other than Muslims . It asks who where these 'other' .... the other religion /s that warred with them . In Avestas we have a much early record of a similar dynamic - 'The Great War of Religion' as they refer to it in modern times . Its these 'pre Buddhist ' roots I am interested in .

 

[Nungali]

Here are some details of the pre Buddhist Bon teacher that songsten told me about :

" According to Bon doctrine, Tonpa Shenrab lived 18,000 years ago, predating Gautama Buddha.[4] Practitioners of Bon believe that he first studied the Bon doctrine in Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring, at the end of which he pledged to Shenlha Okar, the god of compassion, that he would guide the peoples of this world to liberation. "

" .... in Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring ... "

" The Beyul realm of Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring is fabled to be located to the west of Mount Kailash and shaped like an eight-petaled lotus divided into four regions: inner, middle, outer and boundary area. Tagzig (now Tajikistan) is a mountain range connects the Himalayas.

- Wiki .

'Beyul realm ' - Beyul (Tibetan: སྦས་

 

 

ལ, Wylie: sbas-yul) are hidden valleys often encompassing hundreds of square kilometers, which Padmasambhava blessed as refuges .

A similar description is in Avestas .

In any case , we have a clear link from whatever advanced culture existed within the Pamirs ( Tajikistan ) to Tibet and Bonn . ( In some ways it seems this 2nd phase of Bonn is a 'pre-empt' to Buddhism ... a form of Buddhism before 'The Buddha ') . The basic principles of this philosophy seem to have also passed to the west , into BMAC .

Soon I will be posting a collation of these similarities in philosophy .

 

S; " Very intresting theory. I have always thought of shambala as central asian/indian myth with whole king arthur style legendary Gesar and his invincible horde. and your theory about Bon being a pre Buddhist Buddhism is also curious.

While i agree with most of your arguments (BON=Pre Buddhist Budhism) but your scale is quite grand. BMAC to Medieval TIbet is some 3-4 thousand years time difference."

 

N; " Ummm ... not really . I am equating Pamir early society having certain traits that may have passed into BMAC .

If this is so it may have survived in oral tradition and eventually found its way into some things referenced and some new ideas that appear in the Avestas , that is much later too . The same may have happened in Pamirs , ie it survived as legend / oral 'history' / foklore in Pamirs as well , or even continued in some form there until later times , eventually passing on to Tonpa Shenrab . - Thats why I am hunting info on Pamir peoples in Bronze age and later ... its scant info .

There was an early advanced group there , but they appear to have died out , next a people that mixed nomadism and pastoralism traces.

It sounds far fetched , I realise that , but people in isolated places (or in this case 'hidden places ) tend to hold traditions / memories / stories for a long time . Here its been shown that some much older ancient stories are actual histories of occurances in Australia ( eg , coastline being swallowed by the sea , ancient droughts , megafauna , etc .

 

With the idea of a 'peaceful society' spread from the Pamirs ( going west towards BMAC and eventually evolving to the principle of 'Good Kingship' and ) and a kingdom of 'serenity and contemplation' ( going east to result in the 'memory' of Shamballa , and also a Pamir spiritual teacher - Tonpa Shenrab ) one wonders what factors may have caused this to develop ?

Coincidence ?

The origins of cannabis smoking: Chemical residue evidence from the first millennium BCE in the Pamirs
 

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaw1391

Also , coincidentally , is that one can easily equate 'war lord culture ' of some steppe peoples with the opposite type of drugs ; amphetamines , mostly from Central Asian ephedra herb - a component of 'soma '

Let's hear from Indra on that :

"Men who ride swiftly, having good horses, call on me when surrounded in battle. I, the bountiful Indra, provoke strife. I whirl up the dust, my strength is overwhelming... . No godlike power can check me - I who am unassailable. When draughts of Soma, when songs have made me frenzied, then both the unbounded regions are filled with fear."

( Zoroaster forbid the taking of drugs in rituals . Their 'Haoma' is a differnt type of 'soma' and is a type of health treatment.)

Also Indra was called ; sahasra-mushka, 'the one with a thousand testicles' (Rig Veda 6.45.3), he presided over victory in battle .

Where as the 'others' , the asuras preside over the establishment of a moral and social order . It appears they where all of the same 'pantheon' , a latter split seems reflected in both scriptures ( Avestan and Vedic ) and in the early 'Indo Iranians '

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Similarities between Shamballa ( possibly in Pamirs ) and early / pre Zoroastrian 'civilisations' .

The Avestan tradition of Airyana Vaeja recalls a place and society that hold the roots of their culture, stories about it survived in myth, legend and scripture (Avestas). Some have confused THIS concept of 'Homeland' with Urheimat , but that is something different and not what I am referring to here .

There are many references in the Avestas to its location and they type of society they had . When compared to Shamballa tradition we can see the similarities .

( There are other indications in the writings , eg 'Zoroaster's father came from Airyana Vaeja . ' and others , some may be accurate or some may just have been given attribution to support validity . Here, I am not so much tracing THESE 'facts' but rather looking at generalised descriptions . )

Let's look at ( just some of ) the work of Mr. K. E. Eduljee :



" The founding of the Bon religion is ascribed to Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche who was born - by some estimates 18,000 years ago - in the land of Tagzig Olmo Lung Ring. Tagzig, is believed to be a form of the name Tajik. (The name Shenrab sounds Iranian as well.) The doctrine taught by Tonpa Shenrab was spread by his disciples and their student-translators to adjacent countries such as Zhang-Zhung (also Zhangzhung, Shang Shung or Xang Xung - a land north of the Himalayas, which contained Mount Kailash in today's Western Tibet), India (northern Indus valley), Kashmir, China and eventually Greater Tibet. Tonpa Shenrab is reputed to have visited present-day western Tibet once. On that visit he found the people unprepared to receive the entire body of his teachings, but he prophesied that his teachings would flourish in Tibet in the coming ages. The students of his disciples continued his mission and Tibetan Bon scriptures were translated from texts in the language of Zhang-Zhung.

"Bon claims to have spread south to the Indian subcontinent and to have influenced the development of Vedic Hinduism. Perhaps pre-Tibetan Bon was a form of the primordial Aryan religion before Zoroastrianism and Vedic Hinduism. Buddhism in turn evolved out of Vedic Hinduism (c. 400 BCE). Completing a full circle, today's Bon is so heavily influenced by Buddhism that it sounds like a Buddhist sect. Perhaps some scholars may take it upon themselves to try and isolate the precepts of the pre-Buddhism Bon.

" It may be of interest to those studying the weather change in Airyana Vaeja, that pollen and tree ring analysis indicates the Chang Tang plateau in Northern Tibet had a far more liveable environment than it has today - one that supported a primordial civilization - until the climate become colder and drier starting around 1500 BCE, a climate change that caused the population to migrate out of the northern plateau. This authors also feels that the ancient Aryan and Zoroastrian link to western Tibet is further exemplified by the common tradition of exposing the dead to birds. "

[ These similarities in funeral rights have been noted before but some have discounted them as coincidental ' Zoroastrians did not bury dead as they didnt want to defile the earth - Tibetans becasue of difficulty with the frozen and stony ground and limited land for living and agriculture . Yet, if certain Zoroastrian principles came from an early time - in the Pamirs , a very similar environment , with similar issues around burials would be present . ]

At the centre of the land of Tagzig (called Shambhala in the Kalachakra) was Olmo Lungring which had at its centre, Yungdrung Gutsek, a four-sided mountain similar to Mount Meru / Sumeru (see above). The mountain is surrounded by temples, cities and parks. To the mountain's south is the Barpo Sogye palace, where Tonpa Shenrab was born. The complex of palaces, rivers and parks with Mount Yungdrung Gutseg in the centre constitutes the inner region (Nang-gling) of Olmo Lungring. The intermediate region (Bar-gling) consists of twelve cities, four of which lie in the four cardinal directions. The third region includes the outer land (mTha'-gling). These three regions are encircled by snow-capped mountains and an ocean.

The mountain Yungdrung Gutsek has nine Yungdrungs (swastikas) ascending like a staircase. It is not without significance that the swastika plays an important symbolic role in both the Bon and Vedic Hindu religions. In Bon, The nine swastikas represent the Nine Ways. The swastika (Yungdrung) itself is a symbol of permanence and indestructibility of the mind-stream, the wisdom of Bon. The full name of Bon is Yungdrung Bon meaning Everlasting Truth.

The four sides of the mountain faced the four cardinal directions. From the four corners, each of which represent four archetypal thought forms, flow four rivers:

- From the thought form of a snow lion flows the river Narazara to the east,
- From the thought form of a horse flows the river Pakshi to the north,
- From the thought form of a peacock flows the river Gyim Shang to the west, and
- From the thought form of an elephant flows the river Sindhu (In Persian: Hindu which later became Indus) to the south.

A few concepts emerge from the description of Tagzig's terrain within which lies the four-sided mountain, Yungdrung Gutsek. First, while our translation states the singular, a four-sided mountain, a mountain in all the related ancient Avestan, Vedic, and Bon texts frequently refers to a group or range of mountains with several peaks. For instance Hara Berezaiti contained two thousand, two hundred and forty four mountains peaks (see above). Next, from the four-sided Yungdrung Gutsek mountain(s) arose several rivers flowing in all the cardinal directions. In addition, this region was north of the northern Indus region. (Also see our section on the four-sided topography of the Pamirs. It is unreasonable to expect the geographic descriptions in the ancient texts to align perfectly on a modern map. The ancients used approximations formulated from the accounts of travellers over several generations and good examples of this contention are the maps drawn by classical Western authors such as Ptolemy.)

Tibetan Buddhism's Kalachakra uses the Hindu Vedic legend of Mount Meru (Avestan Hara Berezaiti) and surrounds Mount Meru with the mythic kingdom of Shambhala, a Sanskrit word meaning the land of peace. Shambhala, also spelt Shambala or Shamballa, is said to be the land of the Living Fire and Gyanganj, the home of immortal wisdom and the omniscient wise god of time (descriptions some use for Ahura Mazda, God, in Zoroastrianism). The concept, description and qualities of Shambala coincide with those for Arya Varta / Airyana Vaeja, the Aryan homeland, and help provide us with added information on its possible location.

[Nungali]

According to the Buddhist Kalachakra, Shambhala, presently hidden to the rest of the world, is a paradise of peace, tranquility, honesty and wisdom. It is home of the primordial and highest spiritual teachings, a tantra of the cycle of time now hidden from us but one that will eventually save the world from evil. Before it adopted Buddhism, the people were followers of the Mlechha, a Yavana or western, religion, some of whom worshiped the sun. Emulating the time periods in Zoroastrian eschatology which uses a cycle of time, as well as emulating the Zoroastrian concept of a final struggle between good against evil, the Buddhist legend states that as time progresses, the world around Shambala will succumb to evil. However, three millennia after ancient Shambhala king first travelled to India and adopted Buddhism, the Shambhalians will emerge to save the world. There will be a epic battle between the righteous Shambhalians and the surrounding evil forces - a battle in which the righteous Shambhalians will prevail and defeat evil forever. As we have noted, this legend closely parallels Zoroastrian legends that presage a final struggle between the forces of good and evil in which the good, the ashavan, will prevail, transforming the world to a paradise, a heaven, on earth - the vahishtem anghuim - the transformative event being frasho-kereti.

Shambhala has both an outer temporal and an inner spiritual meaning. In the outer meaning, Shambhala is a land that is only accessible to the pure in heart. Those with impure motives will lose their way in the intervening deserts and mountains, blinded by storms. Representing the inner meaning, some thangka paintings of Shambhala depict the kingdom surrounding Mount Meru as an eight-petal lotus - a symbol for the heart chakra and an indication that Shambhala is to be found in a person's heart.

This author therefore proposes that since Shambhala, the land surrounding Mount Meru, is identified as the Vedic Arya Varta, and since the Vedic Arya Varta in turn corresponds to the Avestan Airyana Vaeja (which contains Mount Hara), that the land surrounding Shambhala, Mount Meru and Airyana Vaeja are intimately linked if not the same land. If this author's association is correct, what all four traditions, Zoroastrian, Hindu, Bon and Buddhist, have preserved, is the topography of ancient Airyana Vaeja - a land of fertile valleys and alpine meadows ringed by high snow-capped high mountains.


Weather Change in Airyana Vaeja During Jamshid's Reign

(Note: The name Jamshid is a later version of the name Yima-Srira or Yima-Khshaeta, meaning Yima the radiant, in the Vendidad. In the Avesta, Jamshid is called Yima son of Vivanghat, while in the Vedas, he is called Yama son of Vivasvant.)

According to Zoroastrian texts as well as Ferdowsi's Shahnameh, legendary king of Airyana Vaeja, King Jamshid, initiated the observance of Nowruz, New Year's day on the first day of spring. For King Jamshid to take this step, Airyana Vaeja must have experienced the beginning of spring and the end of winter around the spring equinox or March 21.

Further, Yasna 9.5 (similarly, Vendidad II.I.6) also states that "in the reign of Yima, there was neither cold nor heat" - a temperate climate by definition. Additional references (see * below), state that the weather in Airyana Vaeja at the outset of the Jamshedi era was equitable. However, the Vendidad and other texts also inform us that a thousand two hundred years into the Jamshedi era, Airyana Vaeja experienced severe and long winters (for a further discussion on the Jamshedi era and the weather change, see our page Aryan Prehistory)

[*References to King Jamshid/Yima: Vendidad II.I.1-20(41) and II.I.21(42)-43(140); Yasna 9.4-5; Farvardin Yasht 23.130; Aban Yasht 5.25-26; Ferdowsi's Shahnameh.]


Funerary Practices

Zoroastrians and Tibetans share the practice of exposing the bodies of their deceased to birds or prey, and to our knowledge they are they only two cultural groups in the world to have employed these practices with any consistency and as an intrinsic part of their traditional / religious rites of passage. They actual methods employed were quite different and the are no records of the Tibetans using towers of silence, dakhmas. This might indicate that while the conditions under which the ancient Tibetans and Zoroastrians lived were similar, they could have been neighbours but not compatriots.


Location of Airyana Vaeja, the Aryan Homeland

These observations, together with observations throughout this web site, point to a location for Airyana Vaeja, the ancient Aryan homeland, in the general vicinity of Tajikistan, southern Uzbekistan, northern Afghanistan, and south-western Turkmenistan - the approximate area in the map below.

More specifically, the observations point to the strong candidacy of the Pamir-Badakhshan region (the areas neighbouring Balkh to the east and north: the upper Amu Darya basin and the Wakhan Valley of eastern Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan), the Hindu Kush to its eastern extremity south of Balkh and bordering the Murgab and Harirud valleys, the Yagnobi , Zerafshan and Fergana valleys, as well as the Alai mountain environs in Western Kyrgyzstan.
 

Language Proximity of Central Asia with the Upper Indus Supported by Archaeology

Given that the Rig Veda is commonly thought to have been written in the Upper Indus region, we have yet one more reason to look at the area immediately to the north and north-west of the upper Indus Valley i.e. the Pamir-Badakhshan region as being a strong candidate for the homeland of the ancient Aryans, the so-called Proto Indo-Iranians.

The language of the Rig Veda and the Old Avesta are so close that they are commonly thought to be dialects such as that spoken in two neighbouring provinces and that further, they emerged from a common language philologists call Proto Indo-Iranian, another name for the language of united ancient Aryans. [Also see our page on Languages.]

Panini, the author of a grammar on Classical Sanskrit which was derived from the Vedic language was a resident of Pushkalavati, Gandhara, which is now part of modern-day Charsadda District in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, formerly known as the North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan and which included the Swat Valley now in northern Pakistan as well.

In the Swat-Chitral region, numerous archaeological sites have yielded graveyards dating between the second quarter of the second millennium BCE and the late centuries BCE, and with associated features leading the sites to be categorized as the Gandhara Grave Culture. The artefacts excavated from the sites show similarities and links with Central Asian as well as lower Indus Valley sites. The use of shell, coral and ivory were likely brought in via trade routes from the lower Indus plains and foothills.

A significant rock shelter site was excavated in the spring of 1967 near the township of Ghaligai / Ghalegay located on the east bank of the Swat River, some 12-15 km south of Mingora towards Barikot. At Ghaligai, the Swat Valley is a kilometres wide, flat, flood plain. Here, the river has many branches and frequently changes course. The valley itself is well cultivated and the crop fields slope gently down towards the river. Watercress and pumpkins are popular crops. Hills rise sharply for the valley. The eastern hills separate the Swat Valley from the Indus and Buner valleys while on the other side the western hills lie the Dir and Chitral valleys. The site has provided evidence of uninterrupted occupation for 3500 years starting from the second half of the 3rd millennium BCE. Three Carbon 14 dates of the earliest/lowest level give date from 2970 to 2930 BCE. artefacts from this level include pottery some with their inner surfaces burnished (presumably to make them water-proof from the inside). Some pottery shapes are similar to those found in Turkmenistan sites (Murgab Delta and the Kopet Dag hill base). Other artefacts found at Ghaligai as levell as Kili, Gul Hohammad, Sarai Kala, Jalilpur and Gumla show striking similarities and eveidence of trade of non-native materials primarily within the Aryan nations but also as far as the Arabian peninsula and China.

In a valley to the west of Ghaligai, archaeological finds at the Balambat site near Timergara (also spelt Timurgarh/Timargarha) and dated to 1500-600 BCE, show links with artefacts found in the lower Indus Valley site Mehrgarh as well as in Central Asian sites. [Balambat lies on the west bank of River Panjkora while Timergara lies across the river on the east bank. The name mean Timurgarh place of Timur (the Mohgul king). The Wikipedia page states that fire altars have also been found at Balambat indicating the resident to be "fire-worshippers" (sic). We are not concerned with the insulting language used in the Wikipedia page - rather, indications of the close links to an early Aryan settlement. "
 

Aryan Homeland, Airyana Vaeja, Location. Aryans and Zoroastrianism.

"
Pamirs & Zoroastrianism

The Pamir-Badakhshan region is home to very old Zoroastrian historical sites and most of the Zoroastrian historical sites we have identified so far in Tajikistan, are in the Badakhshan-Pamir region. There are also enigmatic hand and feet symbols carved into the rock of the Pamir mountains. The Pamiri consider the rocks holy, saying that holy men have stepped on these rocks in the remote past.


Candidate for the Location of Airyana Vaeja

In our discussion on the location of the original Aryan homeland, Airyana Vaeja, a strong candidate for the location of Airyana Vaeja was the general area around Tajikistan and more specifically, the Pamir-Badakhshan region. (See Location of Airyana Vaeja).

In a related page, Aryan Homeland in the Avesta, we examined references to Airyana Vaeja in the Zoroastrian scriptures, the Avesta. In that page, we listed the sixteen nations mentioned in one of the books of the Avesta, the Vendidad. Airyana Vaeja, the Aryan homeland is the first nation in that list. Its precise location is a mystery. In the map below, the second, third and fourth nations, Sughdha, Mouru and Bakhdhi, are to the left, and the Pamir-Badakhshan region is the adjacent region to the right of the map.
 

Page 3: Tajikistan Region. Pamirs, Badakhshan & Zoroastrianism

( there is a LOT more info available on the subject within these pages )

----

It appears some type of advanced civilisation existed within the Pamir's , it may have generated the worlds first known egalitarian society where people where able to live in comparative peace . Some of these ideas and concepts may have passed into the 'Pre Buddhist Buddhism ' of Pamirs, continued there in tradition or myth to later influence Tibet - the 2nd stage of Bon religion influenced by Pamir teacher Shenrab that travelled to Tibet .

Some of the principles that continued on in the west ( and even to Iran and up to the Persian Empire) include a principle of good kingship and fairness to the people , relating in a comparative egalitarian society where people's different beliefs , cultures and religious expression where honoured and allowed . There is also a whole range of other precepts that made this culture different .

- Yesterday I received ' The Bronze Age Civilisation of Central Asia' in the mail , it will take some time to go through all the papers in it and more to follow up any relevant references . So it might take some time before I can add more details about who these ancient Pamiris where . ( And try not to get diverted by mention of and reference to links with Pamirs , ancient Margiana and proto Elamites ... juicy stuff ! ) . I need to read up a lot on the ancient peoples mentioned in those collection of papers .

I also wanted to start re reading 'Origins of the Bronze Age Oasis Civilisation of Central Asia ' by Hiebert, but at the moment it seems to be hiding .

The first book is a bit dated ( pre 80s ) the second is more recent and collates a lot of newer research .

One most recent, and rather daring study, was featured in the many series of 'Alexander's Lost Worlds' - which highlights the difficulties of modern travel and research in the area ; incredible and often hostile terrain , hostile and unpredictable weather , problems with military and inter-factional warfare , etc . They even track around the Pamir
' Knot' searching for the 'mythical ' circular river around the central land , only to find it isnt circular at all , but then they meet an ancient local , that tells them it used to be , until a landslide many years ago .... all interesting stuff !

[Nungali]

 

 

 

One thing I have not focused on here is the idea that the central philosophy of these people came from a centralised source ; that is , Buddhism seems, in some of its pure forms, not so much a religion but a 'science of the mind' . Ways of improving one's life, and approach to ones life ; alleviation of suffering and elevation of 'happiness' , with 'practices' designed to achieve this by changing or developing the way the mind works .

A similar approach is in Zoroastrianism with their main three principles of first 'spenta mainyu' , 'good mind / thoughts' which leads to 'good words' and eventually 'good deeds' ... and eventually, the more people that practice this ; 'good society.' The main purpose of life in Zoroastrianism is to have a good and enjoyable life !

" The goal in life is to achieve ushta: abiding spiritual resplendence, happiness, and peace - an individual at peace with oneself and humanity at peace with itself. Spiritual resplendence gives a person the light of wisdom, a sense of spiritual confidence that the path a person has chosen will lead to a meaningful and fulfilling life. It is inner enlightenment of the spiritual self and a beacon that lights the path ahead. "

 

Both Kalachkra Tradition ( which holds the Shamballa myth ) and Zoroastrianism talk about this 'better society' ruled by these similar principles to come in the future. But unfortunately , the modern world does not seem interested in cultivating good thoughts words and deeds ... its more about material possessions . Although the ideal is a better life and happiness ... it appears we have forgotten how to achieve that .

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Very interesting! Please share more when you find it

[Nungali]

53 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Very interesting! Please share more when you find it

 

For now, there is this ;

 

Ancient Central Asian   Asian Saka  architecture and 'city' ground plans are a model for  Buddhist tantric mandalas . 

 

I have an academic paper on that somewhere  .... that I cant locate at the moment .

 

And they are also present in ancient carpet designs from Tajikistan

 

( The internet here is REALLY  bad today  - still at 3G and two bars  .... I'm contiually loosing work  and images     )

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

 

A note on  Zangzhung - the mythic area north of India ( in 'Tibet' )  that held a lot of these traditions  and was later receptive  to Pamir / Sogdian 'pre-Buddhist' , 2nd phase Bon  teachings  - it may not have been in Tibet (as defined in ancient times ) but actually part of this 'Pamir Empire'  : 

 

  According to Rolf Alfred Stein, author of Tibetan Civilization, the area of Shang Shung was not historically a part of Tibet and was a distinctly foreign territory to the Tibetans:^[6]

"... then further west, the Tibetans encountered a distinctly foreign nation. - Shangshung, with its capital at Khyunglung. Mt. Kailāśa (Tise) and Lake Manasarovar formed part of this country., whose language has come down to us through early documents. Though still unidentified, it seems to be Indo European.... Geographically the country was certainly open to India, both through Nepal and by way of Kashmir and Ladakh. Kailāśa is a holy place for the Indians, who make pilgrimages to it. No one knows how long they have done so, but the cult may well go back to the times when Shangshung was still independent of Tibet. How far Shangshung stretched to the north, east and west is a mystery.... We have already had an occasion to remark that Shangshung, embracing Kailāśa sacred Mount of the Hindus, may once have had a religion largely borrowed from Hinduism. The situation may even have lasted for quite a long time. In fact, about 950, the Hindu King of Kabul had a statue of Vişņu, of the Kashmiri type (with three heads), which he claimed had been given him by the king of the Bhota (Tibetans) who, in turn had obtained it from Kailāśa."^[6]

Edited April 8, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

For further reference ;

 

https://sogdians.si.edu/the-rediscovery-of-the-sogdians/

 

https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199935413.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199935413-e-15

 

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258340522_Relations_between_climatic_changes_and_prehistoric_human_migrations_during_Holocene_between_Gissar_Range_Pamir_Hindu_Kush_and_Kashmir_The_archaeological_and_ecological_data

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

One of the biggest blunders we appear to have made is to have NOT given validity to the advancement of ancient peoples , just becasue they had not developed technology up to the level we have today . And that development seems to have wrecked our minds , the environment that supports us and possibly our whole future .

 

Some ancient peoples where VERY intelligent and smart .  They may have worked out issues and problems that plague some of us today' issues related to intelligence, awareness, 'enlightenment' ,  use and control of the mind  .   This appears the situation with this early civilisation .

 

Another example is with the Australian Aboriginal ;  people used to ask them  what  Gwion Gwion art was all about , answer : " We dont know .... ' rubbish painting '  .... from a long time ago .....  people we dont know of   ... and even from whites ;  "not Aboriginal art - too advanced "  

 

Recently the appropriate Elders have spoken out ( under a type of 'emergency conditions privileged'  -  their culture and knowledge has been in immanent danger of dying out and being lost , so what was highly secret must now be revealed for preservation purposes ).

 

 

It is all about  the Australian wide system of 'Law' ; interrelationships of people and ecology, land management , totems , trade and travel rights , song lines, navigation ... to much to mention here .  It was revealed by a 'prophet' an Aboriginal artist in ancient times that made an ' art object' and called to representatives of all tribes and clans to meet so he could explain it to them   ( at the 'Round Table ' - Australia's 'Stonehengs' - that still exists in situ !

 

Aerial view of the stone table at Dududu.ngarri. Top of aerial image is north with a stone arrangement approximately fifty metres across. The Kimberley hosts known as Kamali were tribes with nomadic bird names and remain represented by seventeen named stones encircling the table. All the visiting tribes from the ‘sunrise’ regions to the east, from northern coast to central desert, form two long lines of jallala — signal stones. Stones arranged in circles andpositioned west of the table represent coastal tribes and southern tribes. )

 

. 

 

A system that enabled people to live in a new , better and fairer way with each other , it was adopted Australia wide . Academics marvel at this (now revealed) rare example and note it is the only case of its type ( a radical re organising of a society ) that came about by the vision, leadership and efforts of,  not a 'war lord' , but an artist.

 

Anyway, my point is , the men that revealed it are also experts in several languages , expert naturalists, translators, published educators ,   hold vast amounts of information in their heads  and are  advisors to such institutions as the Australian Museum  and various archaeological institutions , they are highly recognised in academia ;

 

' Paddy '   and     ' David '  ;

 

 

' Two naked guys in loincloths ' .

 

http://www.ifrao.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/31-1-Doring.pdf

 

a lesson in not being fooled or making judgements on appearances.

 

I claim the same applies back in time  -  ancient peoples ( even without 'civilisation' )  may hold very advanced and very helpful teachings to us , that might be a LOT simpler than we imagine  (as we have accrued these teachings with all sorts of accretions , many unproductive)  .

Edited April 8, 2022 by Nungali

[doc benway]

@Nungali

Are you familiar with the book Bø and Bön by Dmitry Ermakov? Very well researched and documented. The Bönpos I have studied with acknowledge the type of connections you describe though it is not an area I know much about.

https://www.boandbon.com/

[Nungali]

 

No , but  .... Bingo ! Thanks. Looks like I will be ordering another book !

 

 

https://www.boandbon.com/bon-and-indo-iranians/

 

Number  2 seems far too late  , 4 much too early , forget 3 ,  1 seems from standard  old school history ( pre discovery of BMAC - 1970s) .

 

[Apech]

@Nungali fantastic stuff!  great research.

 

I don't know much about it but this part of the world seems to be significant time and time again.  I wondered vaguely if there was any connection to Oddiyana - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oddiyana - and also I recall from somewhere a tradition that Garab Dorje came from somewhere west of Tibet but I can't find any reference on google.

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

@Nungali fantastic stuff!  great research.

 

I don't know much about it but this part of the world seems to be significant time and time again.  I wondered vaguely if there was any connection to Oddiyana - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oddiyana - and also I recall from somewhere a tradition that Garab Dorje came from somewhere west of Tibet but I can't find any reference on google.

 

Thanks . I 've started to get some good feedback here .

 

Your link mentions and I keep running into the word  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyul

 

I was looking into them at the beginning of this research, some years back .   If one looks at a map or photo ( from altitude ) of Pamirs or western Tibet it seems fantastic that people could live there , let alone an advanced society / civilisation . This is where Beyul comes into it . The Avestas describe them as beautiful, fertile, clear clan air and  pure waters , the original concept ( I believe) of Para-diz -  later, the  Classical Persian garden design - 'paradise'  .

 

In scriptural tradition they range from anywhere from a physical settlement to a pure state of mind , or a combination; a  beautiful 'hidden' valley, with a settlement , that only the pure of mind can find / enter .  The 'pure of mind' or 'the enlightened' could mean a lot of things, but I reminded of this story ; a friend of mine was in Nepal ( I think it was ), she went trekking by herself , didnt stay where and when she could have - to early , and decided to press on to the next village , she got lost, a snowstorm came in and night started to fall . She realised she was done for unless she came up with some smart solution. She did, and although it was rather  amusing , it was the right one . She stayed put and .....

" Heeeelp !  ......   HEEEELP !  ......    "  Eventually this  small man ( like a dwark, she said ) turned up out of nowhere, took her by the hand  and in the dark, led her along the trail , she said it was precipitous , once or twice, her foot slipped off the edge but as it did, a  strong yank on her arm  bought her  back up .  Eventually she got to safety . She said her feet could barely keep up with him .

- perhaps its not so much the pure of heart , but 'local skills' ?

 

Anyway ; Bayuls .... in the Avestas , they are said to contain beautiful pastures  and fertile fields ;

 

Yak grazing in the Fergana Valley adjacent to the Pamirs

 

Yurt in the Pamir meadows

 

  Amu Darya (Oxus) River  - Wakhan Valley & farms.

 

 

- A word on climate change ;  Some of the earlier dates ( too early IMO) attributed to these centres, going on stories about climate changing , relate them to the ice age , far too early for early Bronze Age / Chalcolithic.  But looking at climate indicators , there have been several 'mini-ice ages ' and warm periods .   The great cold and deep snow warned about in the Avestas could have been one of these mini cycles . At the outset of the Jamshedi era, the weather in  Airyana Vaeja was fair and equitable. However, a thousand two hundred years after the start of the Jamshedi era, there was a sudden climate chill and a drastic cooling .

 

[Pollen and tree ring analysis indicates the Chang Tang plateau in Northern Tibet had a far more liveable environment than it has today - one that supported a primordial civilization - until the climate become colder and drier starting around 1500 BCE, a climate change that caused the population to migrate out of the northern plateau. ]

 

It seems logical that people effected by cold climate change would move down valleys into lowlands , in this area to the west, the rivers run down into deserts and alluvial fan oasis - The Oxus is the biggest, it's 'Oasis' being the (once ) huge Aral Sea and the delta there, yet another ancient culture. However there is a whole chain of oasis / river fans running along the south edge of these deserts, west, all the way to the Zargros Mts in Iran .  This settlement  probably developed after the Pamir ones  and this is where BMAC culture developed .

 

Some artefacts ;

 

Ceremonial axe head - the two headed 'vulture man' is a common motif .

 

'Bactrian' Camel.

 

 

 

'Minatures'  !  ( Yes, that is a finger behind them ) .

[doc benway]

Another book you may want to check out -

A Step Away From Paradise by Thomas Shor.

A story of a 20th century terton and his search for a beyul.

[Nungali]

On 11/04/2022 at 9:09 PM, steve said:

Another book you may want to check out -

A Step Away From Paradise by Thomas Shor.

A story of a 20th century terton and his search for a beyul.

 

 

Maybe after  the Bo Bon one - its very good  and comprehensive and seems to address exactly the  'migratory philosophy' I have been hunting .

 

This 'existence of Buddhism before the Buddha ' is rather interesting .

 

I will post more after I have read more .

 

[doc benway]

Looking forward to it.

There is also other material -

Samten Karmay’s The Arrow and the Spindle

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu’s wonderful 3 volume series The Light of Kailash: A History of Zhang Zhung and Tibet.

 

Bø and Bön is the most closely related study to what I think you are after, however.

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, steve said:

Looking forward to it.

There is also other material -

Samten Karmay’s The Arrow and the Spindle

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu’s wonderful 3 volume series The Light of Kailash: A History of Zhang Zhung and Tibet.

 

Bø and Bön is the most closely related study to what I think you are after, however.

 

 

 

It certainly seems that way after reading some and looking at contents ;  he talks about  'Indo European Bo '  , sort of, any type of Siberian shamanism  that travelled down into Central Asia and outwards , but also Central Asian Bo , a specific type that went into Pamirs and seems a type of 'Pre-Buddhist' Buddhism . It is the  ' good principles of Buddhism and early Zoroastrianism '   thread that I am tracking back . 

 

Its all a bit detailed though and  secondary to the main aim and conclusions (of this study) that I hope to extract from the 'historical interest '  - after the  research is done .