Acting on your true will

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I think a few of us here now realise that ruling armies, having palaces and teams of dancing girls are not really the supreme aim of life . 

 

They're not?! 

 

Now you spoiled it for me! Did you have to say that, mate?! 

[Michael Sternbach]

SO Thelema teaches us to follow our 'true will'.

 

Whereas Daoism and Zen advise to act spontaneously, in accordance with one's true nature (wu wei and mui, respectively). Which is understood to be an 'innocent' kind of action, even when it entails dismantling an adversary in a martial arts context.

 

Are those two concepts really different from each other?

Edited April 14, 2022 by Michael Sternbach

[Lairg]

So an innocent will?

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Surely you have a Bible tucked away somewhere, if not they are on line, thus a possible benefit from your own reading.

 

Oh ... hot potato too hot for you, so you toss it back ? Okay  I will answer ... he didnt find anything -  ALL IS VANITY .

 

Do you think I have not studied Solomon or the Bible ?   I was YOU  who bought him up , but a pertinent question on it causes you to bail out ???  ... but , whatever  ... I will go on with the sub topic YOU started , but  dont want to follow up on

 

Solomon was a bit of a 'psychonaut ' in this respect ;  " Solomon tried many other "research experiments" in the laboratory of life in his quest to find meaning and solve the vanity issue. "

 

His conclusion ;  "  I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and indeed, all is vanity and grasping for the wind. ' - ie. he made this statement  AFTER   he had  " seen all the works that are done under the sun."

 

First , any in depth reading needs  further background and extra sources to comprehend what is meant ; ie the time and place , what people believed in and knew back then .   Have a look into what Jews back then thought about the afterlife  !  Not much at all , they didnt have the rewards of heaven and eternal life  (  like Christ taught ) ... and we wonder why Solomon thought all this was vanity ! The 'Jewish afterlife' is very 'gloomy'  if existent at all !  They didnt have  concepts like the Zoroastrians did  ; the crossing of the Chinvat Bridge , meeting your own 'Daena' and entering the 'House of Song' . . .   reincarnating or even going off to live with ancestors in 'happy Hunting Ground ' .

 

" You may wonder, "Why didn't Solomon look forward to heaven?" The answer is that in those days there was no widespread knowledge of the afterlife among the Jews. God had revealed Himself to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and had given them laws to keep and promises of blessings in this life to those who did. But references to the afterlife in the Old Testament are few, scattered, and veiled. There were no plain references to heaven. For this reason many of the Jews believed that this life was all there was. Serve God and receive your blessings now, but don't expect anything beyond that. Or, as Solomon would put it, "a live dog is better than a dead lion."

 

https://www.spiritofgrace.org/articles/nl_2013/various/00_vanity_of_vanities.html

 

( Just to show I am not 'making stuff up again '  )
 

 

The only hint of a conclusion,  ' the least of vanities' ,  he offers is ;

 

" There is nothing better for a person than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment^[c] in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God, ²⁵ for apart from him^[d] who can eat or who can have enjoyment? ²⁶ For to the one who pleases him God has given wisdom and knowledge and joy, but to the sinner he has given the business of gathering and collecting, only to give to one who pleases God. This also is vanity and a striving after wind."

 

The best thing a person can do is eat and drink and find enjoyment from his toil , please God and he will give you  wisdom Knowledge and joy . 

 

I would add to that , the greatest enjoyment one can have , is doing the work they most love  (often an indication of the True Will - note its connection with 'love' ) , feeling you have accomplished a good days work , in this area  - sit back, have a beer  ( or wine or  cup of chai , what ever )  and feel joy in the ending of a hard days work , well done .  I dont scoff at gaining wisdom knowledge and joy either  ... actually, that seems like a 'side effect ' of doing the previous .

 

How are you going to 'please God ' ? For the Jews, it was mostly via fear and obedience  .... I think we may have moved on a bit since then ?  ( for some )   Perhaps it is by fulfilling the actual reason we incarnated in this life in the first place ?

 

... and in a way, it relates to Daoism ; a person not following  their True Will  is  ' wading upstream '  ,   ie. when following 'you way' things can 'unfold' and 'manifest '  rather 'magically' .

 

Conversely , one who has been 'enmeshed' in paths ' not on their evolutionary path' , and is trying to 'get back on track' may experience 'certain difficulties' during the 'refining  and elimination' part of the  process .

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

a sexually predatory pervert and drug addicted scammer is not my cup of tea.  Apparently he is for some which is of their choice regardless of any other rationalizations for drinking such a  cup of tea. 

 

Do you understand what a 'straw man argument ' is ?

 

A lot of your posts seen  like running pot shots , straw man comments , and then you flee from further discourse on any point you made , to then pile more of the same on top .

 

I did expect a bit deeper converse from you on the actual  subject  here  , but if you need to continue trying to blur the REAL subject here  with your  smear brush .... whatever .

 

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

In some traditions, being possessed by a god is highly desirable.  If no god will take you, you may have to settle for possession by a lesser entity

 

Interesting .... but its   out of my experience though ... I have never suffered such a rejection from either God nor ' lesser entities ' .

 

( Ya know, some people dont even think they are possessed by anything !  HA!  ... I imagine that ! )

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Whoa! Learning a bunch of new words here... It's much like trying to find your linguistic path through the Dune universe!

 

So in Zoroastrianism the 'greater world' or faravahar is somehow linked to one's 'united' ancestors and/or guardian angel?

 

And at the same time it seems to refer to the ruler's 'kingship in grace'... (That one actually quite resonates with me, especially since you said I was being graceful. :D)

 

Anyhow... Could you flesh all of that out for me a little more, please?

 

One association coming to mind here is Nietzsche's 'Superman', from his favorite of his own books which he may not by chance have titled Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

 

 

 

I am actually much more familiar with the ancient Egyptians' terminology than with the Persians'. And now I wonder if the concept of the True Will might have its equivalent in that system as well. (Waiting for the cat to chime in.)

 

 Nungers attempts to be graceful :

 

Oh? You must have missed the link I made to the  further explanations  I made about this . its back in post ....

 

.... ah crap, I aint gonna look that up     (  Nungers has returned from his 'Sterny possession " )  ....

 

JUST AS I THOUGHT ... you guys arent looking at my explanatory links are YA!

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

I hate to say it ... HERE  , but with these strange new terms and language  ..... thats  one reason why Crowley simplified the terms to things like 'True Will '    and  'Holy Guardian Angel ' .  

 

Just be thankful I am transliterating it for you -   otherwise  it would be in Avestan  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

I am actually much more familiar with the ancient Egyptians' terminology than with the Persians'. And now I wonder if the concept of the True Will might have its equivalent in that system as well. (Waiting for the cat to chime in.)

 

I will leave that bit to 

 

 

But in many 'primitive' societies  this concept is a given ... 'pre ordained' virtually .   It works via ancestry, totems, etc .

 

Eg, in traditional Mayan society ; one could, by analysis  of your name , understand you ancestry,  'totemic' associations, natal astrology , and reason and purpose / role in your society .    An atrophied fossil of this still exists within our surnames  like ;  Mason , Carpenter ,     Greatrex  ( a topographic surname, which was given to a person who resided near a physical feature such as a hill, stream, or in this case a ridge. ) .

 

You might remember my story abut the Aboriginal guy I was talking to around fire one night  that was mystified by wetsreners asking him what the purpose of life was and saying they did not know what they where  for  .   He also commented that , working under that handicap , no wonder   ; " Whitefellah so fucked up ! "

 

 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Oh well, that kind of thing can happen to the best of us...

 

 

Sterny .... stop takin them blue pills !

 

( of course,  do keep taking them if your Psychiatrist prescribed them for you     )

 

PS ... they just cereal powder   , courtesy of props dept  .   ... wait , I knew some of those guys , they might have slipped some mescalin in for a 'joke'  .      

 

Spoiler

Context :

 

I worked on Matrix films , I seen what 'pranks' some of the props guys pulled ! 

 

 and further context ;

 

one time on location ,   'someone ' - NO not me - slipped some 'space mushrooms' growing in a near by field into the mess tent tea and coffee urn .

 

That was  an 'interesting ' day    

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

They're not?! 

 

Now you spoiled it for me! Did you have to say that, mate?! 

 

Dont be vain .

 

 

( actually , the meaning of Solomon's Biblical  term 'vanity ' , is more like our term 'useless' or 'pointless'  . )

 

- anyway, its only relevant to a Jew a few thousand years back .   I mean ... if it is your True Will' to be a dancing girl  , who am I to pas judgment    

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

SO Thelema teaches us to follow our 'true will'.

 

Whereas Daoism and Zen advise to act spontaneously, in accordance with one's true nature (wu wei and mui, respectively). Which is understood to be an 'innocent' kind of action, even when it entails dismantling an adversary in a martial arts context.

 

Are those two concepts really different from each other?

 

I'd say , only slightly and perhaps due to cultural clothing .   But I would agree that the results of following either , one will deal with much less ' Universal opposition ' . 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Do you understand what a 'straw man argument ' is ?

 

A lot of your posts seen  like running pot shots , straw man comments , and then you flee from further discourse on any point you made , to then pile more of the same on top .

 

I did expect a bit deeper converse from you on the actual  subject  here  , but if you need to continue trying to blur the REAL subject here  with your  smear brush .... whatever .

 

Some enjoy their own ramblings and projections above all else,  "whatever" and blocked.  

[Giles]

Spoiler

6 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

SO Thelema teaches us to follow our 'true will'.

 

Whereas Daoism and Zen advise to act spontaneously, in accordance with one's true nature (wu wei and mui, respectively). Which is understood to be an 'innocent' kind of action, even when it entails dismantling an adversary in a martial arts context.

 

Are those two concepts really different from each other?

 

Yes, they're very different. 

 

 

[Giles]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Do you understand what a 'straw man argument ' is ?

 

A lot of your posts seen  like running pot shots , straw man comments , and then you flee from further discourse on any point you made , to then pile more of the same on top .

 

I did expect a bit deeper converse from you on the actual  subject  here  , but if you need to continue trying to blur the REAL subject here  with your  smear brush .... whatever .

 

 

[Giles]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

JUST AS I THOUGHT ... you guys arent looking at my explanatory links are YA!

 

[Giles]

Spoiler

16 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

It's not my mistake to conflate them, it is your mistake to think that I intended to do so.

 

 

I'm very glad to hear that your conflation was unintentional.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Dont be vain .

 

 

( actually , the meaning of Solomon's Biblical  term 'vanity ' , is more like our term 'useless' or 'pointless'  . )

 

- anyway, its only relevant to a Jew a few thousand years back .   I mean ... if it is your True Will' to be a dancing girl  , who am I to pas judgment    

 

Better desist, or I might be tempted to evoke those belly dancers from your past that brought you to the limits of your manlihood! 

[Michael Sternbach]

10 hours ago, Giles said:

  Hide contents

 

Yes, they're very different. 

 

 

 

Actually, no. Crowley's 'Do What Thou Wilt' and Daoism's wu wei are approaches to the same principle, if from somewhat different perspectives.

 

Crowley's precept may focus on the 'will' aspect more (a matter of cultural emphasis perhaps, as Nungers suggested), but the call to follow one's true nature is very much the same in both cases.

 

Let's not forget that Daoism had a definite influence on Crowley's thinking in general (he actually even published a new translation of the DDJ).

 

The following excerpt from a letter he wrote to his 'sister', reproduced in chapter LXVII of Magick without Tears, may serve to illustrate the affinity:

The Mountaineer

Consciousness is a symptom of disease.

All that moves well moves without will.

All skilfullness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.

Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand, thousand, and it becomes easy; a thousand, thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee.  Not until then is that which is done well done.

Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground.

Or in The Book of the Law.  You know the passage well enough.

Conclusion: this discussion has for ever abolished the use of the word faith to imply conscious belief of any sort.

At least, if there should ever be an element of awareness, it is of the nature of a sudden leap into daylight of the quintessence of a mass of subconsciously selected and ordered experience.

Then what, if you please, did Paul mean when he wrote “Faith is the substance of things hoped-for, the evidence of things unseen.”  Oh, spot the Lady!

Love is the law, love under will.

 

Crowley is talking pure Daoism in the above, for those that are ready to see it. While at the same time hinting at the concordance between the referenced principle and teachings of the Book of the Law.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Michael Sternbach

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, old3bob said:

Some enjoy their own ramblings and projections above all else,  "whatever" and blocked.  

 

I see, you cant answer  any of my rational questions, you make all sorts of diversionary and undermining comments in insinuations , you will not engage sensibly in the actual topic here  ... and now you accuse me of projections and are going to block me .

 

Thats probably the best course of action for you  , since you seemed to have jumped in the pool WAY BEYOND your depth .

 

And I will add  ' good riddance'  !   At least we will not have you trying to divert the topic here any more  ... and I will also add , it is a topic of high spiritual importance to us all   ... so its REALLY curious why some want to divert our subject matter .

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Giles said:

 

 

Nah, you got that totally wrong .

 

I am not putting up sources to  support my biases . I was putting up a link to my own writings to explain further about the  Khavaranah .

 

But carry on with your erroneous assumptions  ....   its got   common here nowadays . .. I wouldn't want to stop a trend 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Better desist, or I might be tempted to evoke those belly dancers from your past that brought you to the limits of your manlihood! 

 

What !   You suggest my 'manlihood'  has a limit !

 

How dare you Sir !

 

 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Actually, no. Crowley's 'Do What Thou Wilt' and Daoism's wu wei are approaches to the same principle, if from somewhat different perspectives.

 

Crowley's precept may focus on the 'will' aspect more (a matter of cultural emphasis perhaps, as Nungers suggested), but the call to follow one's true nature is very much the same in both cases.

 

Let's not forget that Daoism had a definite influence on Crowley's thinking in general (he actually even published a new translation of the DDJ).

 

The following excerpt from a letter he wrote to his 'sister', reproduced in chapter LXVII of Magick without Tears, may serve to illustrate the affinity:

The Mountaineer

Consciousness is a symptom of disease.

All that moves well moves without will.

All skilfullness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.

Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand, thousand, and it becomes easy; a thousand, thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee.  Not until then is that which is done well done.

Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground.

Or in The Book of the Law.  You know the passage well enough.

Conclusion: this discussion has for ever abolished the use of the word faith to imply conscious belief of any sort.

At least, if there should ever be an element of awareness, it is of the nature of a sudden leap into daylight of the quintessence of a mass of subconsciously selected and ordered experience.

Then what, if you please, did Paul mean when he wrote “Faith is the substance of things hoped-for, the evidence of things unseen.”  Oh, spot the Lady!

Love is the law, love under will.

 

Crowley is talking pure Daoism in the above, for those that are ready to see it. While at the same time hinting at the concordance between the referenced principle and teachings of the Book of the Law.

 

Thats actually an extract he wrote in The Book Of Lies , the book I mentioned earlier that was my teenage introduction to the author .     And that is crystal clear ( compared to some other  chapters ) .

 

I particularly like it as , back then I was a long distance runner .   I woud get int an altered state , unaware of my body , just 'looking out the windows of my eyes', actually, no  body sensations at all ... and I would marvel at the 'view outside'   as my body, of its own accord , jumped logs,  hop-frogged between boulders , lept over gaps .... a bit like watching a film .

 

Then one time, when camping , a fair way from a fresh water source , I elected to be the 'morning runner'  going to get water . Most of the run was along rocks by the surf - same thing . How on earth am I leaping and running  from rock to rock,  negotiating rock pools, and all that , while keeping balance  and not  'casting my eyes upon the ground ' ?    reading that passage made me realise it wasnt just me  .... it was a 'process'  we can develop .

 

I suppose  some can relate to the process with art, music or  specifically drumming ; one time after a voodoo session someone was amazed at my drumming ; " I never knew you could drum like that ! "

 

Me;  " No ... but that wasn't actually 'me' drumming ."

 

But those days are far behind ... except for a  surprise resurgence a few years back, when I did it with the twins  , one on each hip !  No chance now though . 

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Thats actually an extract he wrote in The Book Of Lies , the book I mentioned earlier that was my teenage introduction to the author . 

 

Yes, it's originally from The Book of Lies, quoted by uncle Al himself in a letter which was later included in Magick without Tears. Got it?

 

The Book of Lies was also one of the very first of his books read by yours truly, when I was technically  a teenager still, and soon after I had been introduced to the Book of Thoth along with its corresponding Tarot deck (which is still my go-to deck, even though I own many others meanwhile). I then familiarized myself with The Book of Lies, more or less at the same time I also got to know The Book of the Law and Liber 777.

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

   And that is crystal clear ( compared to some other  chapters ) .

 

Huh? Which chapters did you find difficult to understand? 

 

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

I particularly like it as , back then I was a long distance runner .   I woud get int an altered state , unaware of my body , just 'looking out the windows of my eyes', actually, no  body sensations at all ... and I would marvel at the 'view outside'   as my body, of its own accord , jumped logs,  hop-frogged between boulders , lept over gaps .... a bit like watching a film .

 

Then one time, when camping , a fair way from a fresh water source , I elected to be the 'morning runner'  going to get water . Most of the run was along rocks by the surf - same thing . How on earth am I leaping and running  from rock to rock,  negotiating rock pools, and all that , while keeping balance  and not  'casting my eyes upon the ground ' ?    reading that passage made me realise it wasnt just me  .... it was a 'process'  we can develop .

 

I suppose  some can relate to the process with art, music or  specifically drumming ; one time after a voodoo session someone was amazed at my drumming ; " I never knew you could drum like that ! "

 

Me;  " No ... but that wasn't actually 'me' drumming ."

 

But those days are far behind ... except for a  surprise resurgence a few years back, when I did it with the twins  , one on each hip !  No chance now though . 

 

For me, the tie-in was especially with the martial arts I was practising at the time. But sure enough, the same principle applies to any kind of activity performed in the spirit of Zen/Dao, and whether or not it would be labelled as such.

 

Referring back to my previous quote of a quote of a quote, what I find particularly noteworthy is this:

 

All that moves well moves without will.

All skilfullness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.

 

Seemingly at odds with the general "Do What Thou Wilt" philosophy referenced in the same context perhaps, a statement such as this one should make clear that what Crowley proposed was something way more subtle and deeper than some kind of willful ego inflation (hence the qualifier 'true will'!). Consequently, uncle Al  wasn't exactly pleased when some of his students misinterpreted him in the latter sense.

 

As I said before, by no means did I intend this discussion to be limited to the Thelemic concept, though! Be free to reflect on the implications and explications of following one's will with reference to any tradition here, or to none at all.

 

Let's try and get practical! 

 

Please consider these questions:

• How do you make a significant decision in your life? How do you determine whether something is actually "right" for you?
• Do you welcome a new challenge despite the obstacles it may present you with and keep your eye on its potential rewards? Or do you tend to avoid it unless circumstances force you to dedicate yourself?
• How does one or the other  affect your outer and inner life experience subsequently?
• How do you deal with the necessity of letting go what's familiar and dear to you? What does it take to make you move out of your comfort zone?
• How much safety do you require for yourself and others involved before you are ready to make a move? Are you trying to plan ahead of time in minute detail? Or do you prefer to make up stuff on the fly?

I would love to hear about your personal experiences!

 

Michael 

[Giles]

Spoiler

11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Actually, no. Crowley's 'Do What Thou Wilt' and Daoism's wu wei are approaches to the same principle, if from somewhat different perspectives.

 

Crowley's precept may focus on the 'will' aspect more (a matter of cultural emphasis perhaps, as Nungers suggested), but the call to follow one's true nature is very much the same in both cases.

 

Let's not forget that Daoism had a definite influence on Crowley's thinking in general (he actually even published a new translation of the DDJ).

 

The following excerpt from a letter he wrote to his 'sister', reproduced in chapter LXVII of Magick without Tears, may serve to illustrate the affinity:

The Mountaineer

Consciousness is a symptom of disease.

All that moves well moves without will.

All skilfullness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.

Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand, thousand, and it becomes easy; a thousand, thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee.  Not until then is that which is done well done.

Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground.

Or in The Book of the Law.  You know the passage well enough.

Conclusion: this discussion has for ever abolished the use of the word faith to imply conscious belief of any sort.

At least, if there should ever be an element of awareness, it is of the nature of a sudden leap into daylight of the quintessence of a mass of subconsciously selected and ordered experience.

Then what, if you please, did Paul mean when he wrote “Faith is the substance of things hoped-for, the evidence of things unseen.”  Oh, spot the Lady!

Love is the law, love under will.

 

Crowley is talking pure Daoism in the above, for those that are ready to see it. While at the same time hinting at the concordance between the referenced principle and teachings of the Book of the Law.