Acting on your true will

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Giles said:

  Hide contents

 

 

 

 

I am sure you meant to say: "Someone's a troll on the Internet."

[Zhongyongdaoist]

On 4/13/2022 at 3:35 PM, Nungali said:

On 4/12/2022 at 3:37 PM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Want to know what the original context of "Do what you will" was?

 

Here you go:

 

 

Check it out at:

 

Christianity

 

So much for Aiwass and other nonsense.

 

ZYD

 

 

 

Well, its a long tradition  that winds its way through many manifestations  and NOT original to Crowley .  But going back to the topic at hand ,  ie, the concept   ( forgetting  Crowley for a moment  .... if that is possible for a moment ) what do you think about my comparisons to the concept of Khvarenah  ? (Emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

I had already looked up your posts on Khvarenah and read some when you asked this, but I have been to busy to squeeze in a reply.  In general I find them an interesting and potentially useful addition to the discourse on the subject.  If I can make more time, I may reply in more detail.

 

ZYD

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I am sure you meant to say: "Someone's a troll on the Internet."

 

I think he meant to say ;

 

I am a troll on the internet that has already been banned from daobums but I snuck back in under another name  (although I can be tracked to the same address  )

 

What these types 'forget' is that they can be identified as their behaviour has not changed      .... you would think they could mask it a bit .

[Giles]

Spoiler

23 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I am sure you meant to say: "Someone's a troll on the Internet."

 

I considered that possibility but I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, Giles said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I considered that possibility but I decided to give you the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

Hilarious!

 

If you have nothing more to offer than twisted facts thrown in, I will follow my True Will and stop replying to you!

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Hilarious!

 

If you have nothing more to offer than twisted facts thrown in, I will follow my True Will and stop replying to you!

 

 

Often when people try to mask their identity , they cant help slipping a mistake in or doing something stupid due to lack of imagination , like inventing a name that was like their last one , or a name that starts with the same letter as their old name  ...

 

Eh, Mr. G .  .

 

 

[Nungali]

Anyway , to press on with our subject  (amidst jeers, catcalls, the outraged ,  and ' those upset due to past disciplinary actions  ' ) I will venture to ask a question that was stimulated by the above interaction .

 

How would we know or identify what our True Will is  ?

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Often when people try to mask their identity , they cant help slipping a mistake in or doing something stupid due to lack of imagination , like inventing a name that was like their last one , or a name that starts with the same letter as their old name  ...

 

Eh, Mr. G .  .

 

 

 

I don't really care who this dude is, actually. 

 

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

Anyway , to press on with our subject  (amidst jeers, catcalls, the outraged ,  and ' those upset due to past disciplinary actions  ' ) I will venture to ask a question that was stimulated by the above interaction .

 

How would we know or identify what our True Will is  ?

 

Brilliant question!

 

Have a go at answering it, please...

[Nungali]

Well, there is a whole range of indications . These can start with the observation of children , we need to be careful here as its a fine line between  allowing any expression they seem to be attracted to, or have  come 'pre-loaded' with and protecting them against bad, wrong and dangerous decisions .   Natural abilities and  proclivities can be some indication . One has to allow full expression of the individual child and not see them as an sort of property or copy of yourself .   Of course , parental judgements can hamper or assist :

 

In my case , I remember once as a young lad  ( and already being asked 'what are you going to be when you grow up  ? ' ... a little confusing as I thought I would be myself , then I realised they meant , 'what are you going to do with your life' , bu later realised that was wrong too , they meant what job or profession would I do  .... even as a kid I was ' your job defines   who you are ? ' )  I saw a man doing a job, watched him a while and then declared to my parents ' thats what I want to be when I grow up '  .   They asked what, and since we where still in the location ( a shopping centre )  where I was watching I took them to show them .  They where horrified !

 

It was in a department store  window , and a window dresser was making a little scenario ; back drop, some items , dried flowers , some models in clothing , a bit of  furniture .... he would stand back ... no , the arrange things differently , yes .  Then match colours , I realised some things he did seemed ... not right , then when he re arranged  - right .    Like someone working on a life sized diorama .  But he was 'very gay ' ( now that I think back , but I didnt even know about that at the time  .... this is early 60s in a very straight catholic family  .... I didnt even ever a conversation with either parent about ANY type of sex ! )  .... parents where shocked  and led me away ; no no no YOU dont want to do that   ( MY God ! Little Nungers wants to be a homo ! ) .  Later they booked me in with a professional 'vocational guidance councillor ' , I got interviewed, did a test and it came back that I would make a 'good '  shop assistant .  

 

In later life I realised why that was an attraction . Several other things   I felt the same way about .  I kept chopping and changing interests  .... but at a latter stage in life  I realised they where actually all facets of one thing !  At a certain stage of 'initiation and realisation' , they all  came together .... it was like watching a reverse slow motion film of something shattering  ... all those different things fitting into place and creating ' what it was ' .     And , of course , part of that involved   creating an harmonious space , with everything  within it  vibrating to the same frequency  ( ie,  specific 'temples' for working specific energies )  , 'life sized dioramas' . 

 

( I have written about this process in the form of a short story , by developing a kids story - to introduce them to the idea - based on an old Sufi story  ..... with updates  )

 

Happiness enters into it, but I dont mean ordinary happiness , I mean an abiding , long term deeply satisfying happiness  . Some people have things ( hobbies, sports, careers , professions )  that they absolutely LOVE doing   ( love and will again )   more than anything else , some can do it all day  and they might be brilliant at it . Imagine having something you feel like that about ,  as your job ... and getting paid to do it as well , when you would be prepared TO PAY  to do it anyway  .... some people have found that .

 

To me that's an indication that 'you are doing what you came here for'  .... mere  physical pleasures cant  give abiding 'happiness, sustenance and satisfaction like that can .

 

Then there is that 'Daoist aspect'  ..... doing things or going down pathways  that dont assist one finding their True Will is like swimming up stream to cross the river  . And the reverse applies ; especially when we see manifestations of many things happening 'effortlessly' to assist a person in   that direction ; 'luck' is on their side , " How on earth did you pull that off !? "   or as my solicitor said to me once ; " What the hell is going on here , every time a trap is set for you, or they  ( Government prosecutor)  ...

[Nungali]

 (... having trouble with computer and internet ... loosing text .... I will post in small blocks )

 

.... push you in the river , you manage to hit every hidden stepping stone , stumble to the other side and fall on a silk cushion with a cocktail in your hand  ! " 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

Another type of Daoist aspect is , in the raising of children , to be relaxed and let things sort themselves out as they do ... an indication of a path might only be for one set of experience relevant  to the whole (as in my case ) In raising children ;"  do not build a pool for a goat nor a pen for a shark"  .  Be  aware of any indication they show that might be an interest, a curiosity or a development , support it and nurture it , be on guard not to  FORCE them in ANY direction .  Let it unfold naturally .

 

We could also look backwards in our life for indications  of any current confirmations as to the path we are on  eg .  I partook of an unusual 'off shoot' rite  ( let's say )  , it was VERY good , and potent , the Master of the Lodge was excellent !   But, as it is in western occultism  ( and in Ancient Egyptian symbolism , which I just commented on earlier here today ) their regalia can seem a real strange concoction of clumped together symbolism .  We ended up having a conversation , much like this one , and he laughed and showed me a photo of himself , VERY young , looking a little confused , on a stage with other kids  all dressed up, and him dressed in a costume like the one he was wearing in lodge  !    WTF  is that ?  It was a school play ,  he was stuck into a particular role ,  they didnt have the exact costume so they had concocted that out of what they had .   - This might seem a strange 'indication '   but I have seen it many times ; the really good nurse that played all day long in her toy nurses uniform as a kid , etc .

 

Some might say the influence of things programmed them into a career  ; giving the kid a nurses uniform or me seeing the window dresser influenced influenced us become a nurse ; a  (let's call it a )  'set designer '  (as part of my 'skill set' ) .

 

But ....   I saw and was interested in all sorts of things .... I dont remember much about all of them  and I never  became a jackhammer guy (used to LOVE watching them ) , and so on .  The woman that was a nurse had other clothes and 'dress ups ' , but none appealed to her so much .

 

There are a whole lot of reasons  why we might loose awareness of  our True Will , I wont go into that now .  But some had it worked out at an early age ....

[Nungali]

I taught at the local Steiner  school for a while - year 10  ( great kids !  , I knew most of them outside of school anyway )

 

I introduced some of these ideas with them  ( to save them from 'vocational 'guidance' and careers of shop assistants )  ; " You kids, each one of you, is unique and individual and  have a potential genius to express in your special field . "  I explained a bit, they got curious , some started talking about what they wanted to do and where they wanted to go .   But one kid didnt like the whole thing , he protested that he already knew and was already doing it , and he would after schooling shift into that as his career , along with continued study in that field .  It was to be a gardener ,  supplying bio-dynamic produce . He had already started , his father had been doing it and he had loved it from an early age  ... a few of the above indications where present  , but most of all , he was sure in himself this was his life's path .

 

And who are we to say  not ! An important aspect is to NOT interfere with other wills , if you did , it would be a 'magical declaration' or 'spell' that you dont believe others  have the right to express their wills, so then, neither do you .

 

Anyway, thats just some thoughts off the top of my head , and its probably already too much for most to bother reading  . 

 

OR I could finish with a quote from Crowley   

 

" Now that my lecture is finished , I open the floor to questions about what you where preoccupied  thinking about, or reacting to,  instead of what I was actually saying  " 

 

Spoiler

... and the first question from the audience was ;

 

Q . " What about Jesus ... you didn't say nothing about Jesus ! "

 

A .  " I hold the poor fellow wholly innocent of any religion that was foisted upon him posthumously ."

 

[Giles]

Spoiler

21 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

I will follow my True Will and stop replying to you!

 

👍🏻

 

11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

I don't really care who this dude is, actually. 

 

💔

 

Quote

Brilliant question!

Have a go at answering it, please...

 

🤣

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Thanks for your elaborate comments, Nungers. I read them with interest. 

 

Based on what you shared and my personal experience, perhaps we can try and establish - one piece at a time - some general principles now.

 

First of all, it should be clear that your True Will pertains to something you LIKE to do. And as it comes to you easy and you have passion for it, you will most likely be successful with it.

 

I read somewhere that the three prerequisites of (economic) success are passion, talent, and experience - in this particular order. That makes good sense. For instance, you could be talented all you want, if you have no real passion for your subject, you won't have the impetus that it probably takes to achieve something noteworthy.

 

It goes without saying that economic success isn't all that matters, though. For some of us it's more important than for others, which has to do with our general circumstances and not least what else we want to do in their life - if it's my True Will to found a private space travel agency, no doubt I am going to need a bunch of money for that. 

 

But it's safe to say that, one way or another, most of us need to have some degree of economic success in order to support ourselves and perhaps our family and pets.

 

You mentioned the kind of activity  one likes so much that one were actually ready to pay for doing it. Surely that would be a strong indicator for it to be in line with one's True Will (especially in case of an Australian! ). Obviously, a lot of people are indeed investing substantial amounts into some activity they enjoy doing (such as a costly hobby) without ever getting a cent out of it in return. They may in fact be doing some rather unattractive work just in order to sustain that thing they truly like. That seems less than ideal, though.

 

Basically, following your True Will - which is your true vocation - you wouldn't need to be concerned about supporting yourself. Just doing what you came here to do, you should be taken care of by Divine Providence. Whether this manifests itself as a direct result of your favourite activity or in some other way. For that to happen, I suppose that your activity should benefit others/the whole in some way, though. If all you do is sitting at home and playing video games, that's probably not going to cut it!

 

Chuang-tzu, Chapter 12:

 

Quote

Conversation between Yuan Feng and Chun Mang: 

 

"May I ask about the man of Virtue?"

 

"The man of Virtue rests without thought, moves without plan. He has no use for right and wrong, beautiful and ugly. To share profit with all things within the four seas is his happiness; to look after their needs is his peace. Sad-faced, he's like a little child who has lost his mother. Bewildered, he's like a traveler who has lost his way. He has more than enough wealth and goods, but he doesn't know where they come from. He gets all he needs to eat and drink, but he doesn't know how he gets it. This is called the manner of the man of Virtue."

Edited April 17, 2022 by Michael Sternbach

[helpfuldemon]

There is no mystery in the message of Thelema, it is about doing your Will.  The only mystery is the method in finding it, with rituals and mystical processes, all of which are stupid and neurotic, and a distraction, but; they make up a system that gives you something to do.  Much of the work that these esoteric systems put you through is rubbish.

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Thanks for your elaborate comments, Nungers. I read them with interest. 

 

Based on what you shared and my personal experience, perhaps we can try and establish - one piece at a time - some general principles now.

 

Sounds good .   Putting two heads together better than banging one against the wall

 

Quote

 

First of all, it should be clear that your True Will pertains to something you LIKE to do. And as it comes to you easy and you have passion for it, you will most likely be successful with it.

 

I read somewhere that the three prerequisites of (economic) success are passion, talent, and experience - in this particular order. That makes good sense. For instance, you could be talented all you want, if you have no real passion for your subject, you won't have the impetus that it probably takes to achieve something noteworthy.

 

It goes without saying that economic success isn't all that matters, though. For some of us it's more important than for others, which has to do with our general circumstances and not least what else we want to do in their life - if it's my True Will to found a private space travel agency, no doubt I am going to need a bunch of money for that. 

 

But it's safe to say that, one way or another, most of us need to have some degree of economic success in order to support ourselves and perhaps our family and pets.

 

You mentioned the kind of activity  one likes so much that one were actually ready to pay for doing it. Surely that would be a strong indicator for it to be in line with one's True Will (especially in case of an Australian! ). Obviously, a lot of people are indeed investing substantial amounts into some activity they enjoy doing (such as a costly hobby) without ever getting a cent out of it in return. They may in fact be doing some rather unattractive work just in order to sustain that thing they truly like. That seems less than ideal, though.

 

Indeed , and at times I have been in that situation , but as you know , the money earned in that situation can be channelled  into 'what we will' .  But certainly less than ideal .

 

 

Quote

 

Basically, following your True Will - which is your true vocation - you wouldn't need to be concerned about supporting yourself.

 

I am STILL learning that .

 

I think, once 'the ball gets rolling' it gains momentum  and other things start magically manifesting to assist one  ..... or we could say 'dreams start coming true at an increasing rate '   I have experienced this .   Just one single example :

 

( Oh, and I should add , no matter how much of an idiot I am , it doesnt seem to impact on this process !  )

 

During our hell court case , more than 2 years long , although it  we trounced them , like in any long and gruelling fight , there are times when  you feel pressure , stress , need a break ....  Also it was not that clear then , my mind was saying ' What if we DO loose ? EVERYONE ( for some God damn reason ! ) seemed to be turning against us , even some of the many people we helped over the years - except for two  and saying we are going to loose  , even 'friends' , soliciters , etc .

 

What if I loose my beautiful abode - what will I do then , where will I live , I have no money ... I will be cast out, destitute , an old street person with health problems   

 

But then .... what the hell am I doing !     MY life has never been like that .... things have always 'manifested ' in some strange and unusual way for me .  Stop being an idiot Nungers !   You know 'Big Mum' ( as my indigenous teacher calls her ) is looking out for you .  So I get back to my old self and think ... so what if I loose it all, thats happened more than once and I ended up better off . I know everyone says they are no rentals and they are crazily high amounts .... but I think I just look online and see what IS available  ....

 

...  a 'Lodge'  /   defunct 'bed and breakfast ' .... up on the mountain ..... at THAT price ?  Must be mistake .  So me and friend go to check it out . WOW !    Amazing place , I peek through a window " Thats MY room  right there. "   We ring up .... Oh, MANY people are on the queue for that , but we somehow get to visit the owner , we  click, they decide to bump us in ahead of any others .   I wont detail how good it was as the main thing is ;  one day I drove PAST it , all other times I would drive out, one way to the local town , or drive out , the other way, to see some friends .  But this day I went from town to friends , drove past the house and .... wait a minute !  Drive back and do it again .

 

Then it hit me !  This is the place I drove past on my visit to the area before I moved here 30 years ago and I noticed it, stopped and admired it and thought 'What a fantastic place ... and it just resonates with me, like I belong here . Oh what I would give to be able to live in a place like that .... even temporarily , but that seems impossible .    I was living in my 'dream house'

 

And that isnt the only thing like that , that happened , there has been  many of them . Some times , to a seemingly trivial and material level :  the motorcycle ( old retro version )  ,  I realised after I bought it  ,  is exactly the same sort of motorcycle I dreamed about having as a teen  ... I forgot all about that ,  but now somehow I have one .   ( and the reason for that is , I never really needed money before, but I sure thought it might be handy and fun to have some !    )  At the beginning of our court case , they also threatened to take everything I had  ...  but after investigation they realised I had nothing  personally owned  ( worth anything to them ) so I was declared a 'man of straw' - a legal term which means  basically 'forget it, he's a bum, not worth the trouble of shaking him upside down, only a few cents will fall out  )  .  The after the case and we won, and after the appeal and we won .. and after it was all finished and settled    THEN I got, totally out the blue a multi hundred thousand dollar inheritance .       - that now, they cant touch ! 

 

Who is working this all out  ? ! 

 

 

 

 

Quote

Just doing what you came here to do, you should be taken care of by Divine Providence. Whether this manifests itself as a direct result of your favourite activity or in some other way.

 

Many have wondered why 'someone like me ' , never responsible , planning, or saving , ended up where I am .

 

 

Quote

For that to happen, I suppose that your activity should benefit others/the whole in some way, though. If all you do is sitting at home and playing video games, that's probably not going to cut it!

 

And also interesting  is that I did all this stuff , not for any 'karmic reward ' ... it just happened , or I was drawn towards it for other reasons ; things like  working with refugee relocation, nursing the elderly , cooking nurturing and feeding people ,  one could even say being a tarot reader all those years , or time spent as a masseur  . I was never interested in  charging for it though .

 

And that leads me to another factor ;  past life 'accoutrement ' , what we bring with us , I am supposing some experience (or karma ) along these lines already ..... I think it might be a bit hard to get to this stage of realisation  or 'fluking'  ( )   in one life time .   What I mean by this is ... if someone is a BRILLIANT carpenter , they might have carpentry experience before this life  ?

 

 

 

Quote

 

Chuang-tzu, Chapter 12:

 

 

hang on a minute  !   That sounds like what is happening to me !

 

Surely I am not man of virtue !    

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

There is no mystery in the message of Thelema, it is about doing your Will.  The only mystery is the method in finding it, with rituals and mystical processes, all of which are stupid and neurotic, and a distraction, but; they make up a system that gives you something to do.  Much of the work that these esoteric systems put you through is rubbish.

 

Yes, it will appear that way if you approach this stuff  the wrong way without proper instruction and guidance  and get the supplementary material practices and 'realisations'  that come with it .

 

or one may , as Crowley warned :  " otherwise he will be the slave of illusion, and the prey of madness. "

 

The same applies to many other traditions   eg Tibetan Buddhism ... and also apparently  Christianity .

[helpfuldemon]

The illusions are the "magick" practices that they do.  

[Michael Sternbach]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Sounds good .   Putting two heads together better than banging one against the wall

 

Or than banging our heads together! Let's save that for archaeology topics... 😅

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Indeed , and at times I have been in that situation , but as you know , the money earned in that situation can be channelled  into 'what we will' .  But certainly less than ideal .

 

 

 

I am STILL learning that .

 

I think, once 'the ball gets rolling' it gains momentum  and other things start magically manifesting to assist one  ..... or we could say 'dreams start coming true at an increasing rate '   I have experienced this .  

 

Not only you! It's as though one 'energy release' releases another.

 

And some of a master magician's wonderous manifestations may simply be the result of him/her being fully attuned to their True Will, so whatever 'magick' is supposed to happen happens pretty much by itself.

 

Note that 'effortless action' is one of the central tenets of Daoism.

 

By the same token, if you ever feel you struggle too hard, it's a sure indication that you are not following the 'sacred path'.

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Just one single example :

 

( Oh, and I should add , no matter how much of an idiot I am , it doesnt seem to impact on this process !  )

 

During our hell court case , more than 2 years long , although it  we trounced them , like in any long and gruelling fight , there are times when  you feel pressure , stress , need a break ....  Also it was not that clear then , my mind was saying ' What if we DO loose ? EVERYONE ( for some God damn reason ! ) seemed to be turning against us , even some of the many people we helped over the years - except for two  and saying we are going to loose  , even 'friends' , soliciters , etc .

 

What if I loose my beautiful abode - what will I do then , where will I live , I have no money ... I will be cast out, destitute , an old street person with health problems   

 

But then .... what the hell am I doing !     MY life has never been like that .... things have always 'manifested ' in some strange and unusual way for me .  Stop being an idiot Nungers !   You know 'Big Mum' ( as my indigenous teacher calls her ) is looking out for you .  So I get back to my old self and think ... so what if I loose it all, thats happened more than once and I ended up better off .

 

Nicely said. This is about having Faith - an important aspect especially when things don't look so good temporarily.

 

It seems like following your True Will doesn't necessarily keep you out of all trubs, however, it does make you come out on top!

 

Until then, it's wise to relax and just enjoy the ride...

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

I know everyone says they are no rentals and they are crazily high amounts .... but I think I just look online and see what IS available  ....

 

...  a 'Lodge'  /   defunct 'bed and breakfast ' .... up on the mountain ..... at THAT price ?  Must be mistake .  So me and friend go to check it out . WOW !    Amazing place , I peek through a window " Thats MY room  right there. "   We ring up .... Oh, MANY people are on the queue for that , but we somehow get to visit the owner , we  click, they decide to bump us in ahead of any others .   I wont detail how good it was as the main thing is ;  one day I drove PAST it , all other times I would drive out, one way to the local town , or drive out , the other way, to see some friends .  But this day I went from town to friends , drove past the house and .... wait a minute !  Drive back and do it again .

 

Then it hit me !  This is the place I drove past on my visit to the area before I moved here 30 years ago and I noticed it, stopped and admired it and thought 'What a fantastic place ... and it just resonates with me, like I belong here . Oh what I would give to be able to live in a place like that .... even temporarily , but that seems impossible .    I was living in my 'dream house'

 

That's awesome.

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

And that isnt the only thing like that , that happened , there has been  many of them . Some times , to a seemingly trivial and material level :  the motorcycle ( old retro version )  ,  I realised after I bought it  ,  is exactly the same sort of motorcycle I dreamed about having as a teen  ... I forgot all about that ,  but now somehow I have one .

 

Isn't it amazing how our visions and dreams tend to come true by themselves when the time is ripe? Even though it can take decades sometimes...

 

Which raises the question: Did we unconsciously create those things by ourselves? Or rather, did we foresee what was always meant to happen anyway by an act of precognition? In many cases, it's not easy to differentiate between the two. Maybe what we are generally dealing with is more of a mixture of both: a vision of a potential future reinforced by our 'affirmation'.

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

   ( and the reason for that is , I never really needed money before, but I sure thought it might be handy and fun to have some !    )  At the beginning of our court case , they also threatened to take everything I had  ...  but after investigation they realised I had nothing  personally owned  ( worth anything to them ) so I was declared a 'man of straw' - a legal term which means  basically 'forget it, he's a bum, not worth the trouble of shaking him upside down, only a few cents will fall out  )  .  The after the case and we won, and after the appeal and we won .. and after it was all finished and settled    THEN I got, totally out the blue a multi hundred thousand dollar inheritance .       - that now, they cant touch ! 

 

Who is working this all out  ? ! 

 

Good question!

 

Your as well as my own experiences suggest that on this kind of path one is actually in resonance with the Divine Will. Even though the latter indeed seems to coincide with one's own True Will, the sensation one gets is often one of following the way rather than leading it oneself.

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

Many have wondered why 'someone like me ' , never responsible , planning, or saving , ended up where I am .

 

 

 

And also interesting  is that I did all this stuff , not for any 'karmic reward ' ... it just happened , or I was drawn towards it for other reasons ; things like  working with refugee relocation, nursing the elderly , cooking nurturing and feeding people ,  one could even say being a tarot reader all those years , or time spent as a masseur  . I was never interested in  charging for it though .

 

There is definitely an altruistic side to grumpy old Nungers!

 

There's an old saying: "The smile you send out returns to you." This is certainly true.

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

And that leads me to another factor ;  past life 'accoutrement ' , what we bring with us , I am supposing some experience (or karma ) along these lines already ..... I think it might be a bit hard to get to this stage of realisation  or 'fluking'  ( )   in one life time .   What I mean by this is ... if someone is a BRILLIANT carpenter , they might have carpentry experience before this life  ?

 

I agree, and that might explain why among the three key factors of success I mentioned above, talent outweighs experience. 

 

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

hang on a minute  !   That sounds like what is happening to me !

 

Surely I am not man of virtue !    

 

Perhaps Heaven, the Dao, or whatever term you like to use here, has a different definition of 'virtue' than your orthodox Protestant neighbour...

 

For that matter (and with the reservation that I am not a sinologist familiar with Chuang-tzu's text in its original version), what's typically translated as 'virtue' from the Chinese classics often doesn't refer to something of a moral nature, but rather means 'power' - which BTW is in keeping with the original meaning of 'virtue', as in a medicinal plant's virtue to soothe your throat etc. So Chuang-tzu's 'man of virtue' might in fact designate someone endowed with 'magical' power, i.e., chi, mojo, The Force, and so forth.

 

 

[Zhongyongdaoist]

On 4/13/2022 at 4:53 PM, Nungali said:

On 4/13/2022 at 11:03 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

It's not my mistake to conflate them, it is your mistake to think that I intended to do so.  All I did was provide the originating context, about which Crowley, being raised in the fundamentalist Christian sect, the Plymouth Brethren, probably knew nothing, however, he was quite familiar with Rabelais from whom he, oh sorry, I forgot, Aiwass,  "borrowed" quite a bit, including the very term thelema.  I am quite familiar with Crowley and his writings, as I made clear nine years ago here:

 

 

When and at what age did you buy your copy of Magick in Theory and Practice, oh all wise one?  I have read, about, studied and practiced magic for decades, and I don't care to waste further time with you, so as far as I am concerned we are done here.  As far as Crowley goes, there is not much reason, except possibly historical, to pay attention to him.  I have posted about him and my reasons for thinking so in various places on Dao Bums over the years and anyone who wishes can find them with a search or two.  It should be noted that part of my criticism of Crowley is also a criticism of what I call neo-magic, magic as practiced based on the Nineteenth Century revival of magic.  My posts in Eliphas Levi, whom Crowley loved to consider his previous incarnation, dealt with the magical revival and my criticism of it to a certain extent.  As a final note just in case someone makes the mistake of thinking that because I emphasis Magick in Theory and Practice above, that it is is all that I read of Crosley's work, which it was not, however, during the early Sixties it was practically all that was readily available.  I did read a great deal more of Crowley as it appeared through the later Sixties and early Seventies.  Humorously, among other things, I was probably the only thirteen year old in the U.S. to get a copy of The Equinox of the Gods for Christmas in 1963, but that is another story, and I don't have time for that now.

 

ZYD

 

 

as I said , its a long tradition that winds through good and bad  ... you didnt even mention

 

Sir Francis Dashwood and 'The Good Nuns and Knights of 'St Francis '  Rabelais

 

yes, Rabelais  ... and others , in ONE  focus .... and right back to  whatever religions influenced early Zoroastrianism .

 

By the way  ..... who gives a 13 yo that as  Christmas present !       My earliest was around 16 when a copy of The Book of Lies fell out the library shelf  into my hands when I was rummaging through other books near it  - try starting with that ! (Emphaisis mine, ZYD)

 

I was looking up some past posts of mine when I came across this:

 

By the way  ..... who gives a 13 yo that as  Christmas present !       My earliest was around 16 when a copy of The Book of Lies fell out the library shelf  into my hands when I was rummaging through other books near it  - try starting with that !

 

Why Santa Claus, who else?  In this case, it was really Mrs. Claus, AKA, Mom.  She was a very loving mother who would do almost anything for her genius son.  As it was she worked in a book store and since I could not find some of the books that I was interested in, in the bookstore which I mentioned, I started looking up book titles in Books in Print and she was very happy to comply, I was also probably the only thirteen year old who got the Greater Key of Solomon, and the first book of the Lesser Key, AKA Goetia, Dion Fortune's Psychic Self Defense, maybe some other books by Fortune and probably some books by W. E. Butler.  At this late date I can't remember all of the details.  I had wanted The Equinox of the Gods , hoping that it would be the Equinox to which Crowley was always referring in Magick in Theory and Practice.  Needless to say I was very disappointed.  I stopped buying books in early '64 because I didn't see much that I could do with them at thirteen.  I will leave out interim details, but I do remember buying the Book of Lies and Liber Aleph at another bookstore probably sometime in late '66 or early '67.  I really liked the The Book of Lies, though I am rather embarrassed to admit that it took me a second reading to understand the meaning of the "Gnostic Sigil" in Mandarin-Meals.  I should add that no one in my family had any interest in magic or such matters, the closest that anyone came to occultism was my dear Scottish Grandmother's interest in Astrology.

 

I could elaborate on all of the above, but I have other, better, things to do, but I hope that this long delayed reply is helpful.

 

ZYD

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

 

I was looking up some past posts of mine when I came across this:

 

By the way  ..... who gives a 13 yo that as  Christmas present !       My earliest was around 16 when a copy of The Book of Lies fell out the library shelf  into my hands when I was rummaging through other books near it  - try starting with that !

 

Why Santa Claus, who else?  In this case, it was really Mrs. Claus, AKA, Mom.  She was a very loving mother who would do almost anything for her genius son.  As it was she worked in a book store and since I could not find some of the books that I was interested in, in the bookstore which I mentioned, I started looking up book titles in Books in Print and she was very happy to comply, I was also probably the only thirteen year old who got the Greater Key of Solomon, and the first book of the Lesser Key, AKA Goetia, Dion Fortune's Psychic Self Defense, maybe some other books by Fortune and probably some books by W. E. Butler.  At this late date I can't remember all of the details.  I had wanted The Equinox of the Gods , hoping that it would be the Equinox to which Crowley was always referring in Magick in Theory and Practice.  Needless to say I was very disappointed.  I stopped buying books in early '64 because I didn't see much that I could do with them at thirteen.  I will leave out interim details, but I do remember buying the Book of Lies and Liber Aleph at another bookstore probably sometime in late '66 or early '67.  I really liked the The Book of Lies, though I am rather embarrassed to admit that it took me a second reading to understand the meaning of the "Gnostic Sigil" in Mandarin-Meals.  I should add that no one in my family had any interest in magic or such matters, the closest that anyone came to occultism was my dear Scottish Grandmother's interest in Astrology.

 

I could elaborate on all of the above, but I have other, better, things to do, but I hope that this long delayed reply is helpful.

 

ZYD

 

No , it isnt helpful .

 

Why ?

 

 

because this was your previous post here ;

 

" I had already looked up your posts on Khvarenah and read some when you asked this, but I have been to busy to squeeze in a reply.  In general I find them an interesting and potentially useful addition to the discourse on the subject.  If I can make more time, I may reply in more detail. "

 

I know this is an issue for you;  having time to  post here , as for a few years, pretty much every post you 'bow out' that way . Thats fair enough .

 

But why use your valuable time to rehash this  above ? Especially when you where 'additionally discourse' on such an important subject as the (perhaps) original source of this in Zoroastrianism .  Why comment off topic, when you said you where going to comment on topic and then go off as you have ; " better things to do " .

 

Why waste your valuable time on rehashing and old discourse of contention , here within this subject, when the subject at hand might benefit from your valuable input  ?

 

I dont get it .