Learning with Master Bruce Frantzis

[Robin]

I've been having some issues recently attending online teachings with Bruce Frantzis. I posted about this on the Energyarts members' forum, and there was a certain amount of constructive dialogue, but the topic was not encouraged and commenting was turned off. I received a couple of very supportive private messages, as well as a particularly aggressive one condemning my expression of frustration.

 

The stimulus for my original message, which I will paste below, is that I have chronic fatigue and attending teachings even online has an energetic cost associated with it. To then have the teaching involve numerous "statements of accomplishment" which don't appear to add value is frustrating for me. The specific example of Bruce telling us that his family were cardinals in the Greek church for 1000 years is a case in point. For one thing I'm not interested in learning more about Christianity, and for another family history is no guarantee of credentials.

 

Another point is that in my opinion (as someone with many years experience as an educator myself), if someone chooses to teach, it is because they want to do so, and for this, students are required. So from my perspective, students are just as important to the event of teaching as the teacher, and worthy of the same respect and consideration. For me this perspective offers a counterpoint to the notion that since a teacher is generously sharing of their wisdom, we should therefore be "more than grateful." Of course gratitude is appropriate, but in proportion and not to then justify behaviors which trigger discomfort in others (with reasonable account taken of our own responsibility for our reactions to stimuli).

 

The original post I made is below. I'm curious to hear if other people have had similar reactions to Bruce's teaching, and if so how they have worked with the tension between their appreciation of the quality of the teachings and any difficulties they have experienced in their relationship with the teacher.

 

If anyone is thinking of suggesting I simply find another teacher and move on, believe me I have already thought of that. The issue is that I have invested many years learning Bruce's material and it is deeply ingrained in my body. It is not so simple to just forget it all and look elsewhere, and I don't necessarily want to, although I'm aware that having unresolved friction with one's teacher can negatively impact practice. 

 

Personally I think this issue ties into some important questions about learning energy arts in general, and is worth exploring for those who find it interesting to do so. I also think there is probably a difference between whether we are discussing health and martial arts practices vs the deeper work of meditation.

 

Looking forward to your respectful comments, and if my original post, shown below, appears disrespectful I apologise. It was written whilst experiencing some exasperation.

 

I feel like I've hit a wall learning from Bruce. I just find him too annoying. It seems like the greater part of what he has to say is about how amazing he is or how full his life has been or how crap most other stuff is compared to what he teaches. If I have to hear one more time about how well he knows Christianity because his family were big shots in the Church for 1000 years I might just scream!

I've learned a great deal from Bruce over the years and I'm grateful for it all. For now though I think I need to learn his stuff only from his instructors and if I need spiritual input to get it from teachers I find less abrasive.

As a parallel with Tibetan Buddhism, it may turn out that Bruce has been my root guru (I've had enough transmission of inner dissolving over the years to make this at least possible), but I don't think he'll ever be my heart guru, at least in this life.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Robin

[JessOBrien]

Hi Robin,

 

How many teachers did BKF have?
Maybe it's time to follow his example?
Take what you've learned and carry it with you into a new, more joyful journey of learning and discovery.

Clearly you've reached the end of what he can teach you.

Time to move on.

Best wishes,

JEss O

 

[Robin]

19 minutes ago, JessOBrien said:

Hi Robin,

 

How many teachers did BKF have?
Maybe it's time to follow his example?
Take what you've learned and carry it with you into a new, more joyful journey of learning and discovery.

Clearly you've reached the end of what he can teach you.

Time to move on.

Best wishes,

JEss O

 

Thanks Jess.O. You are probably right, but there's a couple of "gotchas". One is that no one else, so far as I know, teaches inner dissolving, which is a path I have gone quite a way down with Bruce. There are other meditation teachers I respect, but it's quite a thing to give up on something that has become so much part of my life. Also, there's a bit of unease around having "dissed" my teacher. I don't think it's a huge deal, but I do understand the sentiment of not "biting the hand that feeds you." Mind you, you'd think from some of the messages I've received that I'd committed some kind of sacrilege just daring to suggest that sunshine doesn't always shine out of Bruce's ass! I think for a while I need to emphasize the practices I've learned from other teachers over the years, but at the same time I've got quite a good groove going with Bruce's stuff, much of which I got via his instructors.... Hopefully clarity will emerge soon... 

[awaken]

佛陀可能也經歷過類似的事情，所以他離開了他的兩位老師，自己坐在路邊，從頭開始練起。

 

我自己也離開過多位老師，最後走出一條自己的路。

 

離開老師並不可恥，提升才是重點，你一個人的提升，同時也會影響其他人。

 

在道家也是一樣，老子莊子並未從頭到尾跟著老師不放。

 

The Buddha may have been through something similar, so he left his two teachers, sat by the roadside, and started from scratch.

I have left many teachers myself, and finally found my own way.

It is not shameful to leave the teacher. Improvement is the key point. Your improvement alone will also affect other people.

The same is true in Taoism, Laozi and Zhuangzi did not follow the teacher from beginning to end.

[doc benway]

Hi Robin,

One aspect of the spiritual path that I've encountered and continue to work with is the relationship with the teacher. 

At different points on our path that relationship changes and grows and we experience different things internally, related to that change. It is important to recognize this and bring it into the very path itself, it is an important part of our personal growth and development. Another factor is that a good teacher grooms the student to be an independent practitioner, we slowly attach more to the teachings and practice and less to the person.

 

If you see tangible benefits from the practices and they feel like a good fit, probably worth continuing on the path you're on and face the demons associated with your unmet expectations and the imperfections of your human teacher. The teacher is also the practice, the view, and the lineage, not to mention the Way and Nature of things, however you frame that in your personal paradigm. If the practices are not giving you tangible benefits and does not feel like a good fit, time to move on and stop wasting precious energy and time, we only have so much opportunity in this short life.

 

Peace and blessings on your journey.

[Robin]

2 hours ago, steve said:

If you see tangible benefits from the practices and they feel like a good fit, probably worth continuing on the path you're on and face the demons associated with your unmet expectations and the imperfections of your human teacher.

I do feel many tangible benefits, but if there is a sour taste, either from my own lack of acceptance or some real or imaginary fault on the part of the teacher, it does effect the experience of practice for me, at least temporarily. I've been round this before though so it may resolve in time. It can be a a good opportunity to shift focus to teachings I've received from other sources...

[Sloppy Zhang]

At the risk of being too blunt, you made a similar post on this in 2015:

In that post, you state:

Quote

  Finally, in my recent research into alternative spiritual paths and teachers, I came across an article about Zen meditation in which the author wrote that to consider that someone is your teacher, you must see them in person a least once a year and they must KNOW YOUR NAME! Perhaps the crux of my whole experience here is that I predict a low probability that Bruce could remember my name unprompted, in spite of the time, effort and money I have put into learning from him. Of course one could argue that he has given me a great gift by sharing the teachings, and is in no way beholden to me, but regardless, there’s something about the totality as my experience which “doesn’t feel quite right.”

 

So, my question is: in the 6-7 years since you created that post, do you have a better relationship with Bruce? Does Bruce know your name unprompted? Have you grown in your practice? Have you met another teacher?

 

You felt like something "doesn't feel quite right" in December 2015 and here you are again in 2022. Has Bruce changed? Have you changed? What's different today than 6-7 years ago?

 

Rather than getting into the specifics of any one teacher or any one system, I would take a step back and ask if you are stuck in the same pattern, and what that pattern is, and take it from there.

[saxgentleman67]

Hi Robin. I responded to your post on the EA Forum. It is very easy to get banned on there for saying anything bad about Bruce.

 

Bruce has some great knowledge. And I have enjoyed watching his material for a long time but never fully delved into all his stuff. I have always believed that it's much better to have a good in person teacher than one strictly on video. I have had that for several years before departing on my own.

 

Bruce has good marketing and lots of self-praise and a few teachers/students who sing his praises. Outside of his little circle though, not so much. 

 

I have felt for a long time that he has an issue with ego. The best teachers in internal arts are egoless. Bruce has some issues that interfere with what he has  learned IMO. And the lineage and transmissions from his teachers is limited by his own issues.

 

I study Bruce for his ideas NOT for practicing his stuff. As a supplement to my own understanding of what I am doing.

 

You seem to be looking for answers outside yourself for what to do. Look inward. And be willing to fully let go of  .

 

I don't know what you are looking for. That's the first thing to figure out. Know this though. You do NOT need to go to a martial artist or kung fu this or that to for great health and spirituality. I have found a few different things lately that are either meditation or qigong that are great. Also, you do not need a particular system or lineage or expert teacher.

 

I don't know what you are looking for. I started in martial taiji and quickly got tired of that because of the emphasis on power. About a year about I got into Emei Qigong, which seems really simple but is profound. Much more focused o health and spiritual enlightenment.

[Robin]

6 hours ago, steve said:

The teacher is also the practice, the view, and the lineage, not to mention the Way and Nature of things, however you frame that in your personal paradigm.

I'm not sure. I think this is a very Tibetan approach, and that maybe some people's attempts, whether conscious or unconscious, to fit what Bruce is doing into that model can cause confusion and potential difficulties. Myself included.

[Robin]

3 hours ago, Sloppy Zhang said:

You felt like something "doesn't feel quite right" in December 2015 and here you are again in 2022. Has Bruce changed? Have you changed? What's different today than 6-7 years ago?

Hi Sloppy Zhang. Your observation is very accurate and I'm surprised/impressed.

 

To answer the quoted section specifically. I've developed a chronic illness over the last year which has made me hit the chi gung big time. Having mainly learned Bruce's system, that was the natural place to go, and I joined the Tao Space Live program. While there I saw that Bruce was teaching using sound/vibration for meditation which is a subject I've been fascinated in for years, so it reconnected me with that interest. I found the lessons a bit disappointing though, as they seemed fragmented and contained much of the familiar old triggers for me in terms of how my personality responds to Bruce's. Then during his first Tao Te Ching teaching recently, he was giving his background and someone commended that this was "just the same old rap", and something stirred in me. It was taking a lot of my limited energy to attend to teaching, even though it was online, and I just had a moment of clarity about how frustrating the whole situation was. 

 

Yes I had been there before, but it's like a marriage where there are some good things. I keep coming back because I value the material, but there is often a sour taste that comes with it. So I'll either learn to live with the sour taste or stop coming back at some point. I don't think there is necessarily a right or wrong way to approach the situation.

 

Thanks for your reflection.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Robin

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, Robin said:

I found the lessons a bit disappointing though, as they seemed fragmented and contained much of the familiar old triggers for me in terms of how my personality responds to Bruce's.

Couldn't you view this as an opportunity to explore what is it that "triggers" you? Instead of walking away from the situation, mostly which is contained within one's own mind, it might be the perfect and opportune thing to explore that which seems to be getting "rubbed the wrong way" and causing such reactions. 

 

Here's a personal anecdote that may or may not be useful for you, but I'll share it nonetheless.

When I initially started working with my teacher, there was something I wasn't able to pinpoint clearly that used to raise a very strong reaction in my mind, egoically.

 

Personality-wise, my teacher is gentle, unassuming, easy-going -- child-like in the way he views the world (with a sense of wonderment and joy). But in spite of these clearly non-egotistical characteristics of his, my ego was being triggered.

 

He had thankfully forewarned me that "I might feel weird" as he sends transmissions. Luckily, after a few incidences of this ego-flaring happening, I recognized what was happening (as you are doing in this case). It was my internal energy (jing) that was reacting to his transmission, as initially I had not yet fully 'syncopated' with him. Upon recognizing that, I learned to relax into the feeling and it soon turned into what I would call life-altering, "DNA-changing" transformations. In the system I practice, there is a very strong emphasis on transmission, where the teacher, once they reach a certain level radiate energetically/spritually. If someone doesn't understand that/recognize or even accept that, it triggers their ego and they leave. Many have left. Those who stayed reaped the benefits in martial arts, energetics, and spirituality. 

[Robin]

20 minutes ago, dwai said:

Couldn't you view this as an opportunity to explore what is it that "triggers" you? Instead of walking away from the situation, mostly which is contained within one's own mind, it might be the perfect and opportune thing to explore that which seems to be getting "rubbed the wrong way" and causing such reactions. 

Hi Dwai,

 

I don't know. There could well be value in what you suggest.

Another take though is that I'm getting old and hopefully a little wise, am more aware of the alternatives and less willing to put up with things that jar me for the sake of gaining knowledge that may or may not be as unusually valuable as I've allowed myself to be led to believe.

[saxgentleman67]

41 minutes ago, Robin said:

Hi Dwai,

Another take though is that I'm getting old and hopefully a little wise, am more aware of the alternatives and less willing to put up with things that jar me for the sake of gaining knowledge that may or may not be as unusually valuable as I've allowed myself to be led to believe.

I would suggest that your higher self already knows what to do. Perhaps you were unaware before or had resistance because you had so much time/effort invested with Bruce. If you've been at this for many years you should have a sense of what the next step should be. Let it unfold however it does.

 

When I left my teacher I found another. Then the opportunity came to lead a class. Then the class fell apart. Then I found a different system that was much more in alignment with my personal goals. I believe that if you really pay attention you will find out where to go next.

 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Robin said:

I'm not sure. I think this is a very Tibetan approach, and that maybe some people's attempts, whether conscious or unconscious, to fit what Bruce is doing into that model can cause confusion and potential difficulties. Myself included.

 

Also very Chinese, I’ve experienced it in martial and Daoist master-disciple-lineage relationships. It is the manner in which Bruce was trained and can be expected to influence his approach. 

[RobB]

I studied EA stuff for a bit, mainly via Brian Cooper, Bruce's senior student in the UK at the time. I went to a couple of seminars where Bruce taught. He's a character. When stories came up Brian would shrug and say 'Bruce is Bruce'. I've heard this from others as well. I also had some contact with a swedish guy who organised some seminars for Bruce and came away very dissatisfied with some behaviours he encountered. I was quite invested in the EA curriculum - had strong dissolving experiences and had just started teaching local classes in Wu short form. Then another teacher moved into my town and I met up with him out of curiosity. Never went back to EA. When it's time to change, it's time to change.  

[thelerner]

I forget who said it, maybe Michael McAllister of InfiniteSmile podcasts.   That dis-illusionment w/ your teacher was part of the game.  A widespread phenomena.  He experienced it from both sides.  I think his advice was if the teaching is worthwhile, move through it, suck it up, you'll develop a mechanism to get past it.  In time you'll get back into the groove. 

 

[awaken]

以我一個東方人的角度來看，你的猶豫讓我有點訝異

因為在我印象中，西方人似乎對老師並沒有那麼的忠誠

但是你對你的老師的忠誠，似乎超過了東方人對老師的忠誠

From my oriental point of view, your hesitation surprises me a bit

Because in my impression, Westerners don't seem to be so loyal to teachers

But your loyalty to your teacher seems to exceed the loyalty of the Orientals to the teacher

 

 

[Robin]

9 hours ago, RobB said:

I studied EA stuff for a bit, mainly via Brian Cooper, Bruce's senior student in the UK at the time.

Hi Rob,

 

That's where it started with me too - Wu Style Tai Chi at the Natural Health Centre in Brighton with Brian a long long time ago...

 

Thanks for your input.

[Eduardo]

I have never trusted Qigong or Tai Chi masters who are unable to cure baldness.

 

Edit: My point is about the kidney energy, a true Qigong master keeps their energy systems in balance, especially the precious fundamental energy.

I have met many bald masters with great power and amazing chi expression at a distance but they damage their prenatal energy and become depleted.

The hair system is closely related to the energy of the kidney, which must be kept well reserved and cared for.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Eduardo
Clarification

[Vajra Fist]

3 hours ago, Eduardo said:

I have never trusted Qigong or Tai Chi masters who are unable to cure baldness.

 

Baldness is largely genetic. A better barometer is whether they display humility or kindness.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[silent thunder]

chains of iron

chains of gold

 

all chain hold

[liminal_luke]

The ideal, I suppose, would be to find a teacher who knows something worth learning and how to teach it -- and is also an exemplary and nonannoying human being.  Perhaps it's worth holding out for this ideal.  In my experience, many otherwise great teachers also invoke annoyance. There was the SunDo teacher who instructed his retreat students to bear crawl / duck walk around a mile long loop while he watched on with binoculars. He referred to the event as "special training" -- not the description I would of used.  Many teachers prefer that their students abandon everything they've learned previously and practice only what they teach. Traditionalists will no doubt call me out saying that the do-one-thing approach is correct, but it's always seemed weird to me.  If I want to learn how to make stir-fry noodles, do I have to promise never to eat a taco?  I recently signed up for an online stock trading course taught by a professor at a military college.  The guy is a great trading coach but enough with all the Army metaphors. Steady the rifle, breathe out, squeeze the trigger.  Ugh!

 

Are these teachers truly annoying or am I just easily annoyed?  This is a question worth pondering, preferably while comfortably ensconced in a cushy armchair at a therapist's office.  I'll spare you the details of my process and simply say that if a teacher is good I generally try to learn and set aside my qualms about their (alledged) personality flaws.  This is what works for me.  YMMV 

Edited April 28, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Robin]

17 hours ago, silent thunder said:

chains of iron

chains of gold

 

all chain hold

I'm curious to know how you see this applying to my situation. I can maybe guess, but would enjoy a little elaboration.

[saxgentleman67]

19 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

The ideal, I suppose, would be to find a teacher who knows something worth learning and how to teach it -- and is also an exemplary and nonannoying human being.  Perhaps it's worth holding out for this ideal.    YMMV 

Annoying is a dramatic downplay of what I have seen. I have studied with several different teachers live and via zoom. I have never ever found anyone close to the abrasiveness of Bruce Frantzis. Many others say the same thing too. He is very much a self-appointed master of the West. You never ever hear any credible 3rd party speak highly of him. It's only his students, which I find suspicious.

[Robin]

1 hour ago, saxgentleman67 said:

. You never ever hear any credible 3rd party speak highly of him. It's only his students, which I find suspicious.

One thing which makes the situation difficult to get a true read on is that 3rd parties often aren't aware of what it is that keeps his students loyal, up to whatever point they are. From my perspective this is to do with the genuine high quality of the material. Bruce makes a big deal about how good it is, which is unnecessary as it speaks for itself. There is an impressive depth of detail in the physical mechanics alone, such as the precise alignments, the use of the kwa (which is absent from many other Tai Chi instructors' knowledge from what I've seen), joint pulsing and tissue stretching to name a few. It comes at a cost though....

Edited April 29, 2022 by Robin