Learning with Master Bruce Frantzis

[Dainin]

I took one two day in-person workshop with him and that was enough for me. It was on a short 5 or 6 movement form. He spent almost the entire first day on the first movement only, going into overwhelming, endless detail about it, then rushing through the rest of the form on the second day. Lots of self-aggrandizement and treating attendees in a demeaning manner. He brought a couple of guys who did Japanese martial arts up front to demonstrate that he could hurt them using pressure points. There were also some women hanging around up front gazing at him like cult members. He had one of them strip down to her underwear to make some anatomical point (he did this with a guy also). I doubt that his Chinese teacher would have done that. The whole vibe was pretty weird.

He also appeared to be over 300 pounds at the time, and had trouble walking. He said that he had been in 5 or 6 car accidents in the past few years. I give him credit for losing a lot of weight since then and being able to move better. I did take a few series of classes from one of his students later on, and fortunately that person had none of the same characteristics and was a better teacher than his master. 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Dainin

[saxgentleman67]

Yes, the material is fantastic. The teacher not so much. They are two entirely different things though. IMHO a person tends to start to pick up unwanted energies from their teacher. That is one reason why I left my first long term tai chi teacher. I found him to have some beliefs that were contrary to my own. 

 

How much time did you spend with Bruce in person? I have spent none. I love the knowledge and insights he gives. I hate his teaching style, his ego, and his personality. For me, he often comes across with great negativity and very little love in his heart He often seems to be really out of balance. I think that's why his negative traits become overly emphasized. For me that is a clear cut deal breaker for having him as a teacher. I know plenty of people whose focus is purely martial and they are willing to overlook almost anything if they think the teacher has great skill and can help them get great skill. Personally, I think that is a mistake in the long run. 

 

I'm curious though...if you really like the system and have put in a lot of time in it...why not study more with someone like Paul Cavel...who has the knowledge without all the issues.

[RobB]

10 hours ago, Dainin said:

I took one two day in-person workshop with him and that was enough for me. It was on a short 5 or 6 movement form. He spent almost the entire first day on the first movement only <snip>

 

Ha! Sounds exactly like a Dragon & Tiger Chi Gung seminar I went to years ago!

[Robin]

21 hours ago, Dainin said:

. He spent almost the entire first day on the first movement only, going into overwhelming, endless detail about it, then rushing through the rest of the form on the second day.

I can relate to the other issues you expressed, but this one not so much. It seems like a sound teaching method to me - get some core principles working in a first movement, then they can be transferred to the other movements. Learning more than a minimum amount of movement while learning the core principles could dilute both aspects, IMO.

[Robin]

14 hours ago, saxgentleman67 said:

I'm curious though...if you really like the system and have put in a lot of time in it...why not study more with someone like Paul Cavel...who has the knowledge without all the issues.

Hi saxgentleman67. I have and I do. He's great, and agreed, you don't get what really looks like the unnecessary baggage, from my current perspective.

There's a couple of things though. One is that for meditation, the buck stops with Bruce - there's no one as "senior" to ask or get help from if things get weird, which they can. So even though Paul is a great teacher, I'm not currently convinced that I want to continue down this particular meditation path.

 

As for health practices, I've learned a lot both from Bruce and his senior instructors. Generally I've been fine with practicing these and found them very helpful. But there is something about how a dissonance with the founder of the system can colour the experience of the practice. It certainly makes me more open to practicing stuff I've learned from other systems when I'm having one of my "triggered by Bruce" periods... Maybe eventually I will gravitate mostly towards other sources, or I'll get over my triggeredness. It seems like a silly situation. I imagine a lot of teachers have a smaller proportion of learners who find their teaching style and personality significantly challenging.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Robin

[saxgentleman67]

Make sense. I do think the "triggered" issues could certainly be overcome. The main thing is that you are still getting what you want from the teachings, getting help when needed.

 

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

1 hour ago, Robin said:

There's a couple of things though. One is that for meditation, the buck stops with Bruce - there's no one as "senior" to ask or get help from if things get weird, which they can. So even though Paul is a great teacher, I'm not currently convinced that I want to continue down this particular meditation path.

 

You say this, but given your earlier points it doesn't sound like you have a strong relationship with Bruce. Have things gotten "weird" for you, and has Bruce been able to help you?

 

2 hours ago, Robin said:

It seems like a silly situation.

 

It might be worth expanding on this.

[Robin]

20 minutes ago, Sloppy Zhang said:

 

You say this, but given your earlier points it doesn't sound like you have a strong relationship with Bruce. Have things gotten "weird" for you, and has Bruce been able to help you?

 

 

It might be worth expanding on this.

I'm not quite seeing any contradiction. Things have not got weird, but I know with deep mediation work they can. Another teacher I have guarantees she will respond to all emails, and strongly encourages you to write if things do in fact get weird.To be fair her following is probably smaller, as she's all about (Tibetan) mediation. My sense is that Bruce may or may not help if needed, and he can be very unapproachable in my experience. Sometimes warm and welcoming, sometimes seemingly downright hostile.

[Robin]

25 minutes ago, Sloppy Zhang said:

It might be worth expanding on this.

I mean it doesn't really make sense and seems quite unnecessary. Sharing loads of life-enhancing material but coming across provocative and abrasive (in my perception), and alienating lots of one's students. That's what I mean by silly. Doesn't have to be like that and no perceivable benefit with apparent cost.

[Sloppy Zhang]

6 minutes ago, Robin said:

I'm not quite seeing any contradiction. Things have not got weird, but I know with deep mediation work they can. Another teacher I have guarantees she will respond to all emails, and strongly encourages you to write if things do in fact get weird.To be fair her following is probably smaller, as she's all about (Tibetan) mediation. My sense is that Bruce may or may not help if needed, and he can be very unapproachable in my experience. Sometimes warm and welcoming, sometimes seemingly downright hostile.

 

What are you looking for - the teachings, or the relationship with the teacher?

[Awen]

If its a deep practice (with a health focus) that you want and with no ego issues then look into https://authenticneigong.com 

[Robin]

1 hour ago, saxgentleman67 said:

Make sense. I do think the "triggered" issues could certainly be overcome. The main thing is that you are still getting what you want from the teachings, getting help when needed.

 

 

While I certainly can overcome the "triggeredness", the question for me is whether I want to, as it may be entirely reasonable. It seems some people are OK with taking what serves them and ignoring the rest, which is fine, but for some, including me, it's not quite that simple. I guess for me there is something about harmony within the totality of my experience. I don't mean in a naive way, expecting no issues ever to arise, but a sense that overall there is harmony and balance.

[Robin]

3 minutes ago, Sloppy Zhang said:

 

What are you looking for - the teachings, or the relationship with the teacher?

I don't think they can necessarily be separated,  and I'm not confident they should be, entirely.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Robin

[Sloppy Zhang]

5 minutes ago, Robin said:

While I certainly can overcome the "triggeredness", the question for me is whether I want to, as it may be entirely reasonable. It seems some people are OK with taking what serves them and ignoring the rest, which is fine, but for some, including me, it's not quite that simple. I guess for me there is something about harmony within the totality of my experience. I don't mean in a naive way, expecting no issues ever to arise, but a sense that overall there is harmony and balance.

 

4 minutes ago, Robin said:

I don't think they can necessarily be separated,  and I'm not confident they should be, entirely.

 

So in theory I agree with you, and theoretically your spiritual teacher should be one with whom you have a strong teacher/student relationship, that the spiritual practice they transmit is perfectly aligned to optimize your body, mind, and spirit, and gives you the tools to address any situation you encounter on this journey called life.

 

Unfortunately life does not always align to our theoretically perfect ideals. And the desire to find "perfect" may get in the way of "good enough".

 

So I think you need to first come to the realization that you won't find perfect, or rather, in the time it takes you stressing over finding a teacher that fits you "perfectly", you could have practiced to a point where you could handle any imperfections.

 

So then the question becomes - what is good enough for now, and what do you care more about so you can prioritize where you spend your time?

 

Do Bruce's practices help you heal and improve? Then you should continue doing them.

 

Is another teacher more available? Then maybe you should build a relationship with that teacher and see where that takes you.

 

I understand the "take a little bit from multiple teachers" is a very modern approach, and there have been many, many debates about cross training and mixing and matching. I myself have struggled with it a lot personally.

 

But the fact of the matter is, we live in a modern world. You don't always have a teacher/student master/disciple relationship like the old days. So if you're hitting a wall, and you find something that helps, do the thing that helps, and that helps you move forward.

[saxgentleman67]

I don't know if this has already been said, but I think you are over-analyzing this. It would be easy to spend a long time continuing to do this. Hopefully you see the folly of that.

 

Use the heart to guide your decision. Forgot the logical reasons why or why not.

 

Meditation is perhaps the highest level of these arts. Either you are moving closer to what you are looking for...or further away....if you are honest and pay attention I think you'll know what to do pretty quickly.

[saxgentleman67]

6 hours ago, Awen said:

If its a deep practice (with a health focus) that you want and with no ego issues then look into https://authenticneigong.com 

 

A lot of the reason that someone like Bruce that is truly authentic with strong lineage is so popular with many, is because of all the sites like the one above that you suggest.

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, saxgentleman67 said:

 

A lot of the reason that someone like Bruce that is truly authentic with strong lineage is so popular with many, is because of all the sites like the one above that you suggest.

 

What do you mean?

[Robin]

While I do appreciate the advice some people have shared, I think it's important to remember that no one from the outside can know all the variables at play. I think it would be even more helpful to hear about others' experience of similar situations, key moments and deciding factors, and how they resolved them.

 

I know of several people who moved on from Bruce after many years, and some who stayed in spite of difficulties. I imagine for all of them the process was not simple or clear cut, but that there were twists and turns before clarity was reached. Hearing about these would be helpful so I can compare and contrast and hopefully get some insight into my own unique situation.

 

With hindsight, I expect the path forward will have been obvious, but until then, not so much. I hear what some people have said about over thinking and/or listening to my higher self who might already know the answer. This is certainly worth considering, but clarity cannot always be forced, and I may have to sit with the confusion a little longer until it emerges. In the meantime other people's insights are valuable to hear about.

[Sloppy Zhang]

33 minutes ago, Robin said:

I think it would be even more helpful to hear about others' experience of similar situations, key moments and deciding factors, and how they resolved them.

 

34 minutes ago, Robin said:

Hearing about these would be helpful so I can compare and contrast and hopefully get some insight into my own unique situation.

 

34 minutes ago, Robin said:

I may have to sit with the confusion a little longer until it emerges. In the meantime other people's insights are valuable to hear about.

 

Question - what would you need to hear that would change your mind one way or the other?

 

If someone tells you a fantastic story about how Bruce helped them, would that re-contextualize your experience? Would you disregard the feelings you've expressed so far, or just learn to deal with them? What information would you need to receive to change how you are feeling?

 

If someone told you they also felt frustrated and found a new teacher and became happier, would that validate the feelings you are experiencing? Would you move forward with the teacher who told you to email them any time? Would you stop practicing what Bruce teaches, or would you keep what you've done so far but study with a different meditation teacher?

 

What exactly are you hoping to gain with this thread? What exactly are you hoping to gain from the advice of others? There are any number of current and former students you can reach out to and ask these questions. But I think it would be good to define what you are hoping to achieve here.

[Robin]

9 minutes ago, Sloppy Zhang said:

What exactly are you hoping to gain with this thread? What exactly are you hoping to gain from the advice of others? There are any number of current and former students you can reach out to and ask these questions. But I think it would be good to define what you are hoping to achieve here.

I think I've been quite clear about this. I want clarity around what to practice and who to learn from moving forward, and to help me achieve this I'm interested in other peoples' experience. I'm not going to just imitate the answer I like best, but different perspectives can help to inform the totality of my process. I'm not looking for someone to give me the answer. There is no obligation to contribute, but personally I don't find questioning the premise of my request very helpful.

In terms of reaching out to other students of Bruce's, that is partly what I am doing here. I shared a link on the Energy Arts forum to this thread. Some people have contacted me personally as a result.

[Sloppy Zhang]

5 minutes ago, Robin said:

but personally I don't find questioning the premise of my request very helpful.

 

Well then I'll stop

 

But I've seen many, many threads about this here over the years. Some are about Bruce, and some are for other systems and other teachers. As several others have said, everyone encounters this question at one point or another.

 

Personally, I think understanding the premise of the request is THE thing you need to reflect on. Because otherwise, what's the point?

 

I hope you get some good advice from other practitioners and I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Robin]

14 minutes ago, Sloppy Zhang said:

Personally, I think understanding the premise of the request is THE thing you need to reflect on. Because otherwise, what's the point?

Thank you for sharing this. I will give it some thought.

[Vajra Fist]

On 30/04/2022 at 5:11 AM, saxgentleman67 said:

Yes, the material is fantastic. The teacher not so much. They are two entirely different things though.

 

We had an interesting discussion a while back here about whether you can separate the teachings from the teacher. 

 

I'm of the belief that you have to look at a teacher as the sum product of what they teach. The way they are, their conduct and personality, is the lifetime result of practicing this art.

 

It's not like you take guitar lessons from a virtuoso, who is a bit of an arsehole to people around him. You might learn a lot, but what you learn doesn't mould you as a person into resembling your teacher. Your musical skill is a technical accomplishment, but doesn't affect who you are at a fundamental level.

 

These arts different, in that they are life shaping. A lifetime of meditation practice should ideally result in equanimity, kindness and generosity, as the natural external reflection of an inner attainment.

 

If someone displays the opposite traits, then something is wrong - either with the method itself, or the level of practice they've put in. Maybe they've just not attained a fundamental realisation yet. Even in that case, they're most likely not in a position to effectively guide you, as you say, when things get weird.

[Robin]

I found this article to be pertinent and interesting: https://earthbalance-taichi.com/2020/02/the-anti-guru/

[Creation]

Since you mentioned the quality of instruction on subtle points, I did Frantzis' online programs for years and got a lot out of them, but I now study from Damo Mitchell's online program and haven't looked back.