Cobie Posted April 27, 2022 (edited) Paul Goldin “… just think of the degree of cultural chauvinism necessary for someone to suppose that he or she can translate the Daode jing without knowing Chinese. (... Chinese people don't try to translate Shakespeare without knowing English.) The only way would be if you had convinced yourself that you already know what the text says. ...” (Paul Golding) Paul Goldin's book ‘After Confucius: Studies in Early Chinese Philosophy’, is available for download on the Jstor site https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1wn0qtj.12 Edited March 6, 2023 by Cobie 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted April 27, 2022 Imagine the audacity to assume no one can connect to the source of their own being, except through an arcane ancient language barrier. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted April 27, 2022 (edited) @silent thunder I don’t see the connection? Edited May 14, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
treebuffalo Posted April 28, 2022 I make my own translations because it helps me understand it better. And I share those translations because I want to know what other people think about the subject. The Tao has nothing to do with Chinese. Chinese (and not even Chinese- ancient seal script), is just the finger pointing to something. Why not look at what we're pointing to and not the finger? 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
silent thunder Posted April 28, 2022 18 hours ago, Cobie said: @silent thunder I don’t see the connection? That's ok mate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eduardo Posted April 28, 2022 (edited) . Edited February 7 by Eduardo Delete Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted April 29, 2022 (edited) 嚴復 Yán Fù’s three facets of translation: 信 xìn - true to the meaning 達 dá - easy to understand 雅 yǎ - preserves the style of the original ~~~ Re 雅 also see https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53632-ch-3-a-totalitarian-dark-place/?do=findComment&comment=983161 Edited May 23, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wandelaar Posted May 3, 2022 Taoism as a world view and a way of life isn't (or at least shouldn't be) an exclusively Chinese affair. And that's why silent thunder has a point saying: On 4/27/2022 at 11:18 PM, silent thunder said: Imagine the audacity to assume no one can connect to the source of their own being, except through an arcane ancient language barrier. But Golding is also correct as regards the ancient Chinese text called the Tao Te Ching. One simply cannot read a text if one doesn't know the language. On the other hand it is possible to arrive at an understanding of life and the world that is quite similar to that expressed in the Tao Te Ching by studying nature, history, and society and by practicing some form of meditation. Tao as the foundation of the world isn't an exclusively Chinese phenomenon as we are all part of the same world. However the Tao Te Ching is also a cultural product of ancient China and as such a historically accurate translation cannot be made by someone without a solid knowledge of ancient Chinese language and culture. That's why Golding has a point. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 3, 2022 (edited) On 03/05/2022 at 11:18 PM, wandelaar said: … One simply cannot read a text if one doesn't know the language. … That’s all the OP says. Edited May 14, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
awaken Posted May 4, 2022 (edited) On 2022/4/28 at 11:57 PM, treebuffalo said: I make my own translations because it helps me understand it better. And I share those translations because I want to know what other people think about the subject. The Tao has nothing to do with Chinese. Chinese (and not even Chinese- ancient seal script), is just the finger pointing to something. Why not look at what we're pointing to and not the finger? 你可以跟我合作 我的中文非常好 但是我的英文不太好 you can work with me My Chinese is very good But my English is not very good 不過我會希望你翻譯的是老子帛書 這本比較接近原始的老子 現在的老子道德經是有被改過的 But I would like you to translate Lao Tzu's silk book This book is closer to the original Lao Tzu The current Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching has been revised Edited May 4, 2022 by awaken Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 4, 2022 (edited) On 04/05/2022 at 4:14 AM, awaken said: … Lao Tzu's silk book … is closer to the original Lao Tzu The current Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching has been revised That’s what I think too. : ) Edited May 14, 2022 by Cobie 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 6, 2022 On 04/05/2022 at 4:14 AM, awaken said: The current Lao Tzu Tao Te Ching has been revised I agree. Which bit of the DDJ would illustrate best this revising of the text? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) . Edited November 30, 2023 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
awaken Posted May 13, 2022 On 2022/5/7 at 1:54 AM, Cobie said: I agree. Which bit of the DDJ would illustrate best this revising of the text? 我還沒有讀那麼仔細 不過以我目前粗略的了解 最大的修改是道的部分和德的部分完全反過來 也就是經典的排列順序被改過 在中國的經典 通常比較核心的價值觀 會放在最前面 比較次要的會放在後面 原來帛書把德放在前面 被現代版改成德在後面 我認為這有一種價值觀被改變了 原來是先有德後有道 但是卻被改成先有道後有德 I haven't read that carefully But with my current rough understanding The biggest modification is that the part of Tao and the part of De are completely reversed That is, the classic sorting order has been changed. classic in china Usually compare core values will be on the front The less important ones will be placed later It turns out that the silk books put virtue first Changed by the modern version to De in the back I think there is a value that was changed It turns out that De comes first But it was changed to have Dao first and then De 就我個人的教學來說 沒有德的人是看不見道的 所以帛書版的老子是符合一個道家老師遇到學生的教學順序 但是現代版的老子卻改成不是以人為本 而是以宇宙論為本 這樣價值觀就受到很大的改變了 As far as my personal teaching is concerned Those without virtue cannot see the Tao Therefore, the Lao Tzu in the silk version is in line with the teaching sequence of a Taoist teacher who meets his students. But the modern version of Lao Tzu has been changed to not be people-oriented , but to be cosmology-oriented. The values have been greatly changed 從一種以人為出發的內省態度，被修改為一種脫離人的宇宙論 From an introspective attitude based on human beings, modified to a cosmology out of human 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
awaken Posted May 13, 2022 (edited) https://www.juduo.cc/club/1732198.html 我從這篇文章還找到一個重大的價值竄改 而馬王堆帛書，有很多地方和現存的通行本不一樣，比如說，通行本的經典名句“致虛極，守靜篤”，在帛書版中是這樣的：致虛，極也，守靜，表也，二者的區別是很大的，顯然帛書版的修為境界更勝一籌，為什麼這麼說？ 因為“守靜”，只是表層功夫，致虛，則心無所住，心無掛礙，自由通透，以達無極。 我認為這一點非常重要，因為搬運法推崇靜，而在老子道德經卻公然反對『靜』 認為『靜』是『表』 有一本造假的太上老君清靜經，並非老子所寫，卻掛上老子的名義 而這段文字的帛書版，卻狠狠的打臉了太上老君清靜經的核心價值 說明了守『靜』是表面功夫 I also found a major value tampering from this article The Mawangdui silk script is different from the existing popular books in many ways. For example, the classic sentence of the popular books "to the extreme of emptiness, keep quiet and earnest", in the silk version is like this: to create the emptiness, to be extreme, to guard Jing, Biao Ye, the difference between the two is very big, obviously the cultivation realm of the silk version is better, why do you say that? Because "keep quiet" is only superficial effort, and if it is empty, then the mind has nowhere to dwell, no hindrance in the mind, freedom and transparency, in order to reach the limitless. I think this is very important, because the moving method respects stillness, while in Laozi Daodejing it is openly opposed to "stillness" Think "keeping quiet" is "surface" There is a fake Taishang Laojun Qingjing Jing, not written by Lao Tzu, but in the name of Lao Tzu However, the silk version of this text severely slapped the core value of Taishang Laojun Qingjingjing. It shows that keeping "quiet" is a superficial effort Commitment to emptiness is infinite Edited May 13, 2022 by awaken Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 14, 2022 (edited) On 14/05/2022 at 1:16 AM, awaken said: core values will be on the front … the silk books put virtue first … Those without virtue cannot see the Tao … Lao Tzu has been changed to not be people-oriented, but to be cosmology-oriented. … an introspective attitude based on human beings, modified to a cosmology out of human Exactly, I totally agree with everything you say here. Yes, 德 ‘virtue’ is the ‘core value’ and comes first. Indeed, the DDJ is people-oriented, not cosmology-oriented. That’s exactly what I noticed too when I started reading the DDJ a bit from the transcripts. Thank you for your reply. : ) Edited June 4, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 14, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, awaken said: … The Mawangdui silk script is different from the existing popular books in many ways. … Yes, that’s what I noticed too. Edited May 14, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
awaken Posted May 14, 2022 22 minutes ago, Cobie said: Exactly, I totally agree with everything you say here. Yes, 德 ‘virtue’ is the ‘core value’ and comes first. Indeed, the DDJ is people-oriented, not cosmology-oriented. That’s exactly what I noticed too when I started reading the DDJ a bit from the transcripts. Well that was refreshing. I had been saying similar things on the OD forum but only ever got derision. Thank you for your reply. : ) 你是一個真實的學者 我在非二元篇的主題也看到同樣的情況 這裡有一群人，喜歡把以人為本的修煉哲學，轉換成宇宙論 結果卻是牛頭不對馬嘴 還能自得其樂，誇誇而談 you are a truth scholar I see the same thing in the non-duality topic There is a group of people here who like to convert the people-oriented cultivation philosophy into cosmology The result is that the bull's head is not the horse's mouth still have fun and talk about it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 14, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, awaken said: 你是一個真實的學者 … 哪裡哪裡 … thank you. Edited May 14, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 14, 2022 (edited) On 14/05/2022 at 1:16 AM, awaken said: … virtue … 德道 經 - The Way of Virtue Scripture. Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 14, 2022 (edited) 經 - sacred texts Daoist scriptures (jing 經) are sacred texts written in classical Chinese. Moreover, there are various Daoist views about the origin, nature and meaning of such texts. Many jing [scriptures (jing 經)] are considered to be revealed or inspired. From https://media.bloomsbury.com/rep/files/9781441168733_commonmisconceptions_daoisttradition.pdf Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 14, 2022 (edited) PWT Popular misconceptions concerning Daoism are numerous and increasingly influential in the modern world. … they may best be understood as part of a new religious movement called “Popular Western Taoism” (PWT) … Popular publications like The Tao of Pooh (Benjamin Hoff) as well as Change Your Thoughts and Living the Wisdom of the Tao (Wayne Dyer) … Such works have no place in a serious inquiry into and an accurate under- standing of the Daoism. They are part of popular Western culture, New Age spirituality, as well as self-help and pop psychology. They are part of … a new form of alternative spirituality best understood as “Popular Western Taoism” (PWT) … That movement has little to no connection with the religious tradition which is Daoism. From https://media.bloomsbury.com/rep/files/9781441168733_commonmisconceptions_daoisttradition.pdf Edited May 14, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 14, 2022 (edited) Translations of the Tao-te-ching by … popularisers … are not, in fact, translations. For example, Mitchell and LeGuin do not know classical Chinese. From https://media.bloomsbury.com/rep/files/9781441168733_commonmisconceptions_daoisttradition.pdf Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 15, 2022 (edited) … such popular Western cultural productions are popular exactly because they expunge all of the culturally specific and religious dimensions of the text. From https://media.bloomsbury.com/rep/files/9781441168733_commonmisconceptions_daoisttradition.pdf Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted May 15, 2022 (edited) Changing the text instead of enduring the agonies of changing your own conviction. (Paul R Goldin)* Reminiscent of 虛 亓 心 in Ch 3: xu1 qi2 xin1 - clear thoughts and emotions / humility ~~~ * After Confucius P131 Re Ursula Le Guine https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/31688/625891.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y ~~~ Also see https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53703-now-again/?do=findComment&comment=984113 Edited January 15, 2023 by Cobie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
