Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[doc benway]

19 hours ago, Bindi said:

Using the terms in this article,
 

Thich Nhat Hanh: The Four Layers of Consciousness

 

 the root of the problem is that manas operates in store consciousness and creates a sense of self there. The sense of self can be intellectually negated at the level of working mind consciousness, but it’s not easy to negate the sense of self in the background store consciousness because it is so clingy (see below). 

Non-dual realization has nothing to do with intellectually negating the sense of self at the level of mind consciousness. 

That is what happens when people read and think about non-duality but it is not non-dual realization.

The realization itself is a spontaneous and unpredictable occurrence, often referred to by traditionalists as a blessing or a grace.

 

19 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’m guessing it is the manas consciousness that nondualists claim is so easy to extinguish. 

I've never heard anyone claim that manas consciousness is easy to extinguish.

 

19 hours ago, Bindi said:

I don’t believe the average nondualist has uprooted their sense of self/ego on the level of store consciousness, more likely their manas is actually strengthened (smug) in the belief that they have achieved so simply and directly what is almost impossible. 

Your conclusion is contradicted by the article you reference. 

Non-dual realization has a profound and irreversible effect on store consciousness and manas consciousness.

As per the article, the store consciousness registers, processes, and stores everything we experience, not to mention that of our ancestors, and there is little in life that affects one as profoundly and irreversibly as non-dual realization.

Manas consciousness, what links our sense of self to store consciousness, is precisely what the realization seems to alter, otherwise there would be no claim of non-dual realization. 

The effects on mind consciousness are variable and transient due to its flexible and responsive nature.

It is true that manas consciousness and the store consciousness are not eradicated, that would be equivalent to Buddha, complete and permanent liberation of all karmic traces. I haven't heard anyone claim that, at least no one I thought had genuine non-dual realization. 

The sense of self persists beyond non-dual realization, and yet it is no longer felt as the true and sole nature of what we are, it is informed by a deeper, more certain, and more pervasive knowledge of self that has nothing to do with thought, feeling, or concept. 

 

 

[silent thunder]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

what is being pointed to is beyond words anyway

This.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

The often heard drumbeats that pound on and on about "illusion" (with its attached negative connotation) are a rather deafening affront to me...  The words I'd use instead would be along the lines of evolving, temporary or in flux being that all Kosha's arise from and are connected (as derivative's) to Brahman and which also "return" to Brahman. So if folks go along with that then where does so called illusion begin or end if and when  absolute connections to the Real are recognized?!   Btw. and it may be a stretch (and not all that applicable of a correlation),  but there is a Buddhist saying that is close to, "samsara properly understood is Nirvana) 

The term "illusion" is a poor translation of "mithya" in the Vedantic parlance. Mithya means "unreal", but it is only so when juxtaposed against the ever-existent Brahman. So when the Sage exhorts "Brahma satyam jagat mityha, jeeva brahmaiva napara", he means, "when juxtaposed against the changeless Brahman, the world of name-form-utility is ephemeral, and your true nature, o little being, is none other than that Brahman itself". 

 

An example given is that of the snake and rope. The rope appears to be a snake due to ignorance, but upon investigation, it turns out to be nothing apart from the rope. Similarly, the world, seems to be this thing that seems to exist separate from Consciousness, but upon investigation, turns out to be nothing apart from Brahman/Consciousness. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by dwai

[stirling]

21 hours ago, Bindi said:

I don’t believe the average nondualist has uprooted their sense of self/ego on the level of store consciousness, more likely their manas is actually strengthened (smug) in the belief that they have achieved so simply and directly what is almost impossible.

 

Of course they haven't. The average "non-dualist" (and anyone else you can imagine) still sees from the perspective of being a person, so of course you are right. Non-dual insight would only be an aspiration. No amount of reading or knowledge of teachings is useful unless there is insight. 

 

What we are angling for in all non-dual traditions, though it gets defined in different ways, is the dissolution of the "self" (or realization of the "Self"). It isn't difficult or impossible to achieve at all. It is the pervasive quality of all things. It is simply a perspective shift. It doesn't happen because of complex rituals or practices. What makes you imagine it is impossible? 

 

For some "beings" there is a moment where they see with complete depth the delusion of being a "person" and the path to the complete dissolution of "self" begins. In the 4 path model (using this only as a scaffold, not THE "truth") this is "Stream Entry", or the birth of the "Sotapanna".  In the Zen traditions the path to dissolution is said to take approximately 10 years. Somewhere in the intervening period there is the last portion of the gradual deepening where the "enlightened self" is seen through and THAT delusion drops away as well (Fully awakened or "Arahant"). After this no sense of self is generated  and so coincidentally no karma is generated, since the delusion of a sense of self is dropped and there is no delusion of "self" to generate karma for. 

 

This doesn't mean that such a "person" might not appear grumpy or smug to you. If you meet enough enlightened teachers in any discipline you find they are as diverse a population as any other.

[Mark Foote]

Quote

 

Steve wrote:

 

... Buddha, complete and permanent liberation of all karmic traces.

 

 

 

That makes it sound like something that happens in a living buddha, but I think of it more in terms of what happens at death.  On passing, the buddha/arahant somehow escapes the whole of existence, whereas the "never returner" only escapes sentient form.  If I understand correctly.

Send in the clowns.  Gautama left his wife and son.  He encouraged others to extreme aceticism, for awhile.  There's a sermon where he expressed clearly misogynistic views.  When asked by Ananda the fate of an alcoholic who had left the order and passed, Gautama described the alcoholic as a never-returner, which made little sense to Ananda (meanwhile, when asked by Ananda the fate of many others who had passed, Gautama told Ananda that he should judge for himself based on the kind of life they had led).

A man who had transcended his karma?  You could say, well, he attained the cessation of (volition in) perception and sensation at the moment of his death and therefore transcended the cause-and-effect of volitive action, but the account of his death states that he had just passed out of the fourth of the "material" meditative states when he died, not the fourth of the immaterial states (how the sage knew that, another mysterious ability, but that's what was said).

Most folks here seem to assume that a person is either enlightened, or they're not--am I right?  No degrees of enlightenment, no falling back.  I guess that was one of the questions at the second conclave of monks, after Gautama's death--could an arahant fall back.  I believe they agreed the answer was no.  But then, they couldn't agree on whether or not an arahant could have a wet dream!

I've come to believe that it's a lot like the movies.  A certain number of frames a second, and there's an illusion of continuity on the screen.  I believe the elements of mindfulness have a rhythm, and most of the teachers we have and have had in the modern era are masters of that rhythm.  That doesn't say that these teachers have mastered the cessation of (volition in) feeling and perceiving, the experience associated with Gautama's enlightenment.

I assume the cessation of (volition in) action of the body (and in particular, the cessation of habit/volition in inhalation and exhalation) is likely to be the cessation Gautama referred to in the fifteenth of his elements of mindfulness.  I would say that once the stretch associated with the mind that moves is established, once the mind that moves establishes an overall stretch, it's possible to drop into the cessation of action of the body on a regular basis.

Gautama said the sixteen elements of his mindfulness were his way of living, particularly in the rainy season.   Sounds like the rhythm is easier to experience in sitting.  

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Mark Foote

[doc benway]

4 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

That makes it sound like something that happens in a living buddha, but I think of it more in terms of what happens at death.  On passing, the buddha/arahant somehow escapes the whole of existence, whereas the "never returner" only escapes sentient form.  If I understand correctly.

 

Even the distinction between life and death becomes a bit fuzzy when trying to speak of non-duality and Buddha-nature. The body of light, the liberation of all traces in the dzogchen traditions, is generally said to occur at death but there are some stories of it occurring in life.

[Mark Foote]

Quote

I assume the cessation of (volition in) action of the body (and in particular, the cessation of habit/volition in inhalation and exhalation) is likely to be the cessation Gautama referred to in the fifteenth of his elements of mindfulness.  I would say that once the stretch associated with the mind that moves is established, once the mind that moves establishes an overall stretch, it's possible to drop into the cessation of action of the body on a regular basis.
 

I should maybe have added, "And everybody does, it's just that not everybody recognizes it as such."
 

[Geof Nanto]

On 03/05/2022 at 11:37 PM, Apech said:

Hello,

 

I've read quite a bit of this thread but not all of it - so if I repeat some point already made then sorry for that.

 

I think that systems, practices, religions - whatever you like to call them - vary in their approach and can be dualistic, monist, non-dual etc. in the way they express what the 'work' is.  I would not discount any valid system because it presents as dualistic or non-dualistic etc. as long as it develops a consistent set of praxes which lead the practitioner toward first; stages of realisation and clarity and then to immortality.  I think they necessarily occur in this order because it is about first seeing the 'truth' and then embodying the 'truth'.  Although the work in some systems may be more explicitly aligned toward the second goal even in the early stages - while others almost ignore it until later.  This can be confusing as it can mistakenly draw people into the view that the second stage is thought invalid.

 

Specifically I think one thing that is often lost is that 'non-dual' is not the same as 'monist'.  To put it simply if there is 'me' and 'IT' - then monism says there is only 'IT' and 'me' must be dissolved into 'IT'.  However this can often be a presentational issue - as when entering into this system one is taught more subtle teachings which deal with this apparent negation of self.  Dualism can say that both 'me' and 'IT' can coexist eternally side by side.  While 'non-dual' says that the essence of 'me' and the essence of 'IT' are not different, while 'me' is not the same as 'IT'.  This is a little hard to grasp as it is based in a non-conceptual awareness of what happens when the awareness in 'me' encounters the awareness in 'IT' and recognises itself in the other.

 

What must not happen is the extinction of 'me' in 'IT' as this is called the second death, and to be avoided if the spiritual alchemical work is to be complete.  So monism is essentially faulty but can be allowed for as mentioned above.  Avoiding the second death is not in the negation of self but more the completion of self - in other words the joining of parts, the purification, the circulation of energy and the integration of a whole being, the work for which is done at the subtle energy body level.

 

Just my thoughts of course.

 

Worth repeating. I know from reading your input on this forum over many years that you’re just as messed up as the rest of us. But your insight into the essence of cultivation and, in particular, your ability to express it in words is excellent.  Thank you.  And thank you to everyone else whose thoughtful input makes this forum a meaningful place for me to develop and clarify my own insights. For this, opposition is equally as important, if not more important, than agreement.  

 

I just received a new William Blake book and on browsing it this line of his stood out: “Opposition is true Friendship”.  As is my want I did a quick web search and the first article I found on it had this passage: 

 

In his Marriage of Heaven and Hell (1793), William Blake says that “Opposition is true Friendship” and insists that attempts to reconcile difference are likely to “destroy existence”. The diversity of life is diminished when one person tries to convert another to their truth. Whole ways of life disappear when one group imposes their system on others. What Blake sees is that difference is good. He’d have felt at home among the many Native Americans who insist that difference is an invitation rather than a barrier to relationship. René Descartes asserted: “I think therefore I am.” Animists insist: “We greet therefore we are.”
 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, steve said:

Non-dual realization has nothing to do with intellectually negating the sense of self at the level of mind consciousness. 

That is what happens when people read and think about non-duality but it is not non-dual realization.

The realization itself is a spontaneous and unpredictable occurrence, often referred to by traditionalists as a blessing or a grace.

 

I've never heard anyone claim that manas consciousness is easy to extinguish.

 

Your conclusion is contradicted by the article you reference. 

Non-dual realization has a profound and irreversible effect on store consciousness and manas consciousness.

As per the article, the store consciousness registers, processes, and stores everything we experience, not to mention that of our ancestors, and there is little in life that affects one as profoundly and irreversibly as non-dual realization.

Manas consciousness, what links our sense of self to store consciousness, is precisely what the realization seems to alter, otherwise there would be no claim of non-dual realization. 
 

 

I used these terms manas and store consciousness because I think the author captured the interplay between manas and store consciousness so well. I had a dream of a grape vine growing entwined on a pergola structure, it was so entwined that at its trunk it was almost impossible to tell what was vine trunk and what was pergola post. On top of the structure the branches had grown around the beams, and the tendrils had also wound themselves around the beams. I propose that this is the state that manas and store consciousness are in, echoing the article I referenced. 
 

What to do about this state differed in my dream though. Where Thich Nhat Hanh states “When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed,” in my dream instead I began separating the vine from the structure, starting at the tendrils, unwinding them, then unwinding the branches, and after some time coming to the trunk which had grown around the post to the point that it was was indistinguishable from it. I couldn’t unwind it as it was hard wood, not pliable like the tendrils and branches, so instead I held the trunk and the post above where they were enjoined and worked at pulling them apart. They did come apart but the whole structure started to topple over so I pushed it up again, and then this happened again, the structure started to topple and I pushed it up again, and then it started to topple a third time, and this time I just walked away. When I looked back the overgrown heavy old vine had disappeared along with the structure, but in its place a new young vine had been planted with no structure around it, and I marvelled as I realised that the vine had never needed the structure in the first place. 
 

This is why I said earlier that both manas and store consciousness have to be extinguished at the same time. But my dream is more relevant to the concept of the koshas, where even anandamaya kosha whose description is remarkably similar to the description of nonduality experience, needs to be disidentified from. Anadamaya kosha in my dream would be the structure, and my ‘self’ would be the vine. Once anandamaya kosha is disidentified from, my ‘self’ is seen as the newly planted vine free of all structures that are identified with.
 

So I have a diametrically opposite view it seems, for I don’t want to get rid of my self, I want to get rid of my attachment to anandamaya  kosha (and all previous koshas, body, emotional and mental identification) leaving my self free of all restricting consciousness states. 

 

Quote

The effects on mind consciousness are variable and transient due to its flexible and responsive nature.

It is true that manas consciousness and the store consciousness are not eradicated, that would be equivalent to Buddha, complete and permanent liberation of all karmic traces. I haven't heard anyone claim that, at least no one I thought had genuine non-dual realization. 

The sense of self persists beyond non-dual realization, and yet it is no longer felt as the true and sole nature of what we are, it is informed by a deeper, more certain, and more pervasive knowledge of self that has nothing to do with thought, feeling, or concept. 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Bindi

[Lairg]

32 minutes ago, Bindi said:

in its place a new young vine had been planted with no structure around it, and I marvelled as I realised that the vine had never needed the structure in the first place. 

 

Nice dream

 

I have been looking a fellow I know reasonably well.  He is about 70 and suffering from dementia.   He knows the name of his wife and looks for her but does not recognize her as his wife. 

 

I have observed him over a few years and have seen that his manas (mental energy) should be attached to his brain by a yellow layer that looks like a honeycomb structure.

 

The problem is that the connecting layer has been knocked loose - including by his years as a professional soccer player, hitting the ball with his head.

 

He often looks for people that are not here, but when I look for them I can see them on parallel timelines.  So I think that his manas extends far beyond this 3D timeline.  

 

As it happens his identical twin brother has the same problem and he was not a soccer player.   From what I have seen they are being called to work elsewhere in the solar system and I have been told not to interfere.

 

Such is life!

Edited May 4, 2022 by Lairg

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I used these terms manas and store consciousness because I think the author captured the interplay between manas and store consciousness so well. I had a dream of a grape vine growing entwined on a pergola structure, it was so entwined that at its trunk it was almost impossible to tell what was vine trunk and what was pergola post. On top of the structure the branches had grown around the beams, and the tendrils had also wound themselves around the beams. I propose that this is the state that manas and store consciousness are in, echoing the article I referenced. 
 

What to do about this state differed in my dream though. Where Thich Nhat Hanh states “When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed,” in my dream instead I began separating the vine from the structure, starting at the tendrils, unwinding them, then unwinding the branches, and after some time coming to the trunk which had grown around the post to the point that it was was indistinguishable from it. I couldn’t unwind it as it was hard wood, not pliable like the tendrils and branches, so instead I held the trunk and the post above where they were enjoined and worked at pulling them apart. They did come apart but the whole structure started to topple over so I pushed it up again, and then this happened again, the structure started to topple and I pushed it up again, and then it started to topple a third time, and this time I just walked away.

This feels very dzogchen

 

Quote

 

When I looked back the overgrown heavy old vine had disappeared along with the structure, but in its place a new young vine had been planted with no structure around it, and I marvelled as I realised that the vine had never needed the structure in the first place. 

self-originated and primordially pure

 

Quote

This is why I said earlier that both manas and store consciousness have to be extinguished at the same time. But my dream is more relevant to the concept of the koshas, where even anandamaya kosha whose description is remarkably similar to the description of nonduality experience, needs to be disidentified from. Anadamaya kosha in my dream would be the structure, and my ‘self’ would be the vine. Once anandamya kosha is disidentified from, my ‘self’ is seen as the newly planted vine free of all structures. 

When you find that self I would love to hear more detail!

 

Quote

So I have a diametrically opposite view it seems, for I don’t want to get rid of my self, I want to get rid of my attachment to anandamaya  kosha (and all previous koshas, body, emotional and mental identification) leaving my self free of all restricting consciousness states. 

Not at all diametrically opposed.

I have no interest in getting rid of my self (can someone can help me understand precisely what that is ffs?) and I couldn’t if I wanted to… that’s just another thought. 

 

I am a wonderful and necessary part of me and yet there is far more to me than anything I could ever define or verbalize and this  broader perspective simply puts me in my proper place.

 

I resonate with that last part, it seems very much an expression of emptiness….  or meditation. Those states don’t necessarily disappear but I can be free. This part just takes, for me, some precise instruction and devoted practice. That was what I was describing in what you quoted from me earlier… full circle!

 

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, steve said:

I have no interest in getting rid of my self (can someone can help me understand precisely what that is ffs?) and I couldn’t if I wanted to

 

I was talking with a woman yesterday and had her push her light body out of the galaxy - no problem

 

Then out of the universe, no problem.  Then out of the cluster of universes and then out of the cluster of clusters where she came to a halt.  She could not go further - and she said when she reached that place:  I am home!      She kept her eyes closed for another 5 minutes while she questioned the Entity that encompasses the cluster of clusters of clusters of universes.

 

Thus it is that many in human form are looking up to higher planes when the real self is looking downwards into this universe

Edited May 5, 2022 by Lairg

[old3bob]

On 5/3/2022 at 4:18 PM, Bindi said:

Using the terms in this article,
 

Thich Nhat Hanh: The Four Layers of Consciousness

 

 the root of the problem is that manas operates in store consciousness and creates a sense of self there. The sense of self can be intellectually negated at the level of working mind consciousness, but it’s not easy to negate the sense of self in the background store consciousness because it is so clingy (see below). I’m guessing it is the manas consciousness that nondualists claim is so easy to extinguish. 

 

I don’t believe the average nondualist has uprooted their sense of self/ego on the level of store consciousness, more likely their manas is actually strengthened (smug) in the belief that they have achieved so simply and directly what is almost impossible. 

 

 

Umm, why be much concerned about  defining "the average non-dualist" (or others like saints, gurus, masters, yogis, lamas, gods, etc.) with limitations whoever they  may be unless we are somehow involved with them as a friend or student, or have concerns about how they are affecting people around us and the welfare of the public?  (for instance being destructive to life in general like in some cults) 

Edited May 5, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

Umm, why be much concerned about  defining "the average non-dualist" (or others like saints, gurus, masters, yogis, lamas, gods, etc.) with limitations whoever they  may be unless we are somehow involved with them as a friend or student, or have concerns about how they are affecting people around us and the welfare of the public?  (for instance being destructive to life in general like in some cults) 

Most nondualists on this forum promote their ideas as the only and ultimate truth, and they are generally very quick to negate views other than their own as inferior, limited or just plain wrong. Sometimes I get tired of the nondual supremacy that operates here, and  sometimes I feel like pushing back. 

[awaken]

56 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Most nondualists on this forum promote their ideas as the only and ultimate truth, and they are generally very quick to negate views other than their own as inferior, limited or just plain wrong. Sometimes I get tired of the nondual supremacy that operates here, and  sometimes I feel like pushing back. 

 

本來就不是真理

那是進階的修練法

你確實應該後退

好好閉關修練

 

It's not the truth

That's an advanced training method

you really should push back

Close up and practice

 

如果你有本事練出烏肝和兔髓

你就會理解我的苦心

 

If you have the ability to practice black liver and rabbit marrow

You will understand my good intentions

 

[Apech]

13 hours ago, steve said:

This feels very dzogchen

 

self-originated and primordially pure

 

When you find that self I would love to hear more detail!

 

Not at all diametrically opposed.

I have no interest in getting rid of my self (can someone can help me understand precisely what that is ffs?) and I couldn’t if I wanted to… that’s just another thought. 

 

I am a wonderful and necessary part of me and yet there is far more to me than anything I could ever define or verbalize and this  broader perspective simply puts me in my proper place.

 

I resonate with that last part, it seems very much an expression of emptiness….  or meditation. Those states don’t necessarily disappear but I can be free. This part just takes, for me, some precise instruction and devoted practice. That was what I was describing in what you quoted from me earlier… full circle!

 

 

I think we'll be the judge of that

[Apech]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

Most nondualists on this forum promote their ideas as the only and ultimate truth, and they are generally very quick to negate views other than their own as inferior, limited or just plain wrong. Sometimes I get tired of the nondual supremacy that operates here, and  sometimes I feel like pushing back. 

 

Any posited non-dual supremacy would in actuality be a duality.

[awaken]

修煉中的無我不是擺脫自我

這完全是一種誤解

修煉中的無我是一種意識狀態的演化

自我暫時止息

並非捨棄自我

 

Selflessness in cultivation is not getting rid of self

It's a complete misunderstanding

Selflessness in Cultivation is the Evolution of a State of Consciousness

self cessation temporary

not giving up self

Edited May 5, 2022 by awaken

[awaken]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Any posited non-dual supremacy would in actuality be a duality.

 

非二元對立本來就不是思想哲學

你硬要往思想哲學去靠攏

就破綻百出

 

Non-dual opposition is not a philosophy  at all

You insist on moving closer to ideology and philosophy

it would be full of flaws

[Apech]

45 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

非二元對立本來就不是思想哲學

你硬要往思想哲學去靠攏

就破綻百出

 

Non-dual opposition is not a philosophy  at all

You insist on moving closer to ideology and philosophy

it would be full of flaws

 

'supremacy'

[stirling]

Thank you for your post, Mark.  

 

That makes it sound like something that happens in a living buddha, but I think of it more in terms of what happens at death.  On passing, the buddha/arahant somehow escapes the whole of existence, whereas the "never returner" only escapes sentient form.  If I understand correctly.

 

The story goes that it happened to the Sid, right?

 

Definitely at the Arhat stage the "karma" no longer belongs to the "self". There is "ancient twisted karma" that remains, and it is said to be the residue of previous lifetimes... but ARE there previous lifetimes? Are life and death real, and if so WHAT is birthed or is dying? What do life and death mean in the context of an enlightened being? Does anything arise and pass away? Life/Death/Arising/Passing/Dependent Origination ... these are relative teachings, right?

 

Awakening is understanding that there IS an awareness that is permanent that can be seen at any time, and that this is what "everything" has always been. Identification as a person existing in a time and space world of subject/object relationships is the nightmare we live in  - a mirage of our own moment to moment contrivance.

 

 If reality is non-dual what is there to exist in two separate states?

 

Quote

I assume the cessation of (volition in) action of the body (and in particular, the cessation of habit/volition in inhalation and exhalation) is likely to be the cessation Gautama referred to in the fifteenth of his elements of mindfulness.  I would say that once the stretch associated with the mind that moves is established, once the mind that moves establishes an overall stretch, it's possible to drop into the cessation of action of the body on a regular basis.

 

So, do you mean the cessation of "doership"? It seems to me that probably the cessation of "self" would be the deeper (but related) cessation?

[old3bob]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

Most nondualists on this forum promote their ideas as the only and ultimate truth, and they are generally very quick to negate views other than their own as inferior, limited or just plain wrong. Sometimes I get tired of the nondual supremacy that operates here, and  sometimes I feel like pushing back. 

 

I can relate to that although not so much to well meaning non-dualists or anyone else for that matter who stays within the laws for the common good.  Btw, there is a Taoist saying I kind of remembered and looked up to be sure about before quoting it,  "if you do not strive with others , you will be free of blame"   (TTC, at the end of Chapter 8)

 

(trying to force a stand or a way on others will backfire,  the Spirit does not do that so why should we?  While self defense and rightful self assertion is well within the laws for the common good,  both for individuals and groups  )

Edited May 5, 2022 by old3bob

[stirling]

17 hours ago, Bindi said:

What to do about this state differed in my dream though. Where Thich Nhat Hanh states “When we meditate, we practice looking deeply in order to bring light and clarity into our way of seeing things. When the vision of no-self is obtained, our delusion is removed,” in my dream instead I began separating the vine from the structure, starting at the tendrils, unwinding them, then unwinding the branches, and after some time coming to the trunk which had grown around the post to the point that it was was indistinguishable from it. I couldn’t unwind it as it was hard wood, not pliable like the tendrils and branches, so instead I held the trunk and the post above where they were enjoined and worked at pulling them apart. They did come apart but the whole structure started to topple over so I pushed it up again, and then this happened again, the structure started to topple and I pushed it up again, and then it started to topple a third time, and this time I just walked away. When I looked back the overgrown heavy old vine had disappeared along with the structure, but in its place a new young vine had been planted with no structure around it, and I marvelled as I realised that the vine had never needed the structure in the first place.

 

I would call that a "dharma" dream. There is plenty of teaching in there, I agree.

 

Taking apart the structure of reality is what Hanh is talking about. Separating the parts we create from what is underlying. Trying to hold it up as delusion disintegrates. Surrendering to the fear of letting it all just fall apart. Seeing that structure IS the space - form is emptiness and emptiness form. Finally, complete surrender to reality as it and the realization that what you thought you were continues to manifest with our without you. 

 

Meditation in open awareness without an object is absolutely about establishing a perspective where the ways we build what we think of as "reality" can be examined from a lack of attachment to what or how they present. Repeated exposure to resting in the "natural state" makes the structure fall away. This sort of meditation exists in all non-dual traditions in one way or another. 

 

A question for you: What do you think your "self" is? What would happen if you lost it? This is not a trick question intended to "trap" you.

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Any posited non-dual supremacy would in actuality be a duality.

 

Is it that the "non-dualist" perspective is actually "supremacist", or is it perceived that way due to attachment to "dualist" perspectives?

Non-dual is where duality dissolves. It is natural for the ego to resist things that threaten it. It is also common to consider "Non-dual" realization as some fancy, over-the-top new thing one has to develop/grow/acquire.

 

But the fact is, it is most common and ordinary - so much so, that most don't recognize it. 

21 minutes ago, stirling said:

Awakening is understanding that there IS an awareness that is permanent that can be seen at any time, and that this is what "everything" has always been. Identification as a person existing in a time and space world of subject/object relationships is the nightmare we live in  - a mirage of our own moment to moment contrivance.

 

There is a story in the Upanishads to express this in 'dualistic' terms, often shared by Swami Sarvapriyananda --

 

There was once was a prince of a powerful kingdom in India. When he was in his early twenties, he discovered a portrait of a young girl in the cellar of his palace. The portrait was titled "Princess of Kashi", and dated to a date that corresponded with his own age. The girl was very beautiful, and his mind took to flights of fancy, and thought "If she was so beautiful back then, how lovely must she be now?"

And with that, he fell deeply and madly in love with this girl.

 

Weeks passed, and he started moping around the palace -- his mother, the Queen was concerned and asked the prime minister to inquire as to what had happened to turn the usually cheerful, dynamic prince into a moping, depressed individual. The Minister found the opportunity to catch the prince in one of his reveries, and asked him, "Sire! What bothers you? You seem so depressed and sad!"

 

The Prince told him about how he was head-over-heels in love with the Princess of Kashi, and that he wouldn't find happiness in his life until he made her his wife. The wise Minister was a part of the royal court since before the prince was born, so he knew a lot about the goings on. He asked the prince, "where did you see/hear about this princess?"

 

To that the prince replied, "I found her portrait in the Cellar, with some old stuff stored there."

The minister accompanied the prince to see that portrait. Upon seeing it, he told the prince, "O Prince, you should sit down for what I'm about to tell you."

The prince was puzzled, but sat down. The minister then told him, "O Prince..when you were 4 years old, there was a royal play staged in the court. Her Majesty the queen asked that you be dressed as the princess of Kashi, because they weren't able to find a suitable child from the nobility who could play the part. So, you played the role of the Princess of Kashi in that play. To commemorate that, the royal artist was commissioned to create your portrait as that Princess of Kashi. Now, seventeen years later, the one you have fallen in love with, is none other than you, yourself O Lord!"

 

What do you think happened to the Prince and his depression/desperate love for the princess? The princess was never really there...only a result of the prince's ignorance about the reality of that portrait. Once he realized the true nature of the "princess of kashi", what do you think happened to all that angst and passion?

 

[Michael Sternbach]

The way I look at cultivation, it aims both at the Universal and the Individual. This may sound like a form of dualism, but it really isn't. For the All resides in each of Its creations, from atoms to galaxies, at their very centre - and always in Its Entirety! (Otherwise it could hardly be called the All, could it? .) - In Indra's Net, every pearl mirrors all others. 

 

Atman is Brahman, say the Hindus. God is a circle that has its centre everywhere and its circumference nowhere, says Nicholas of Cusa. The great mystics of all times and places essentially shared the same experience. 

 

Cultivation is naught but putting metaphysical theory into practice. A sound form of practice doesn't require Individuality to be dissolved in Infinite Spirit - not permanently, at any rate! It does expand the conscious self's awareness, thereby awakening it to its Divine nature, which emanates from its very core. For every movement outwards, there is an equal and opposite movement inwards.

 

Paradoxically, the more the practitioner embraces the Universal Spirit, the more complete an Individual he/she therefore becomes. For, in truth, the two are not-two.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Michael Sternbach