Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Is it that the "non-dualist" perspective is actually "supremacist", or is it perceived that way due to attachment to "dualist" perspectives?

Non-dual is where duality dissolves. It is natural for the ego to resist things that threaten it. It is also common to consider "Non-dual" realization as some fancy, over-the-top new thing one has to develop/grow/acquire.

 

 

Bindi referred to non-dual supremacists and I was just pointing out that such a position, should someone uphold it, would be dualist, because that person would be putting 'non-dualism' above other things.

 

 

[old3bob]

20 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

( cut back to this one key point)
"But the fact is, it is most common and ordinary - so much so, that most don't recognize it..... "

 

 

The way I'd put it is: absolutely astounding to a mind of complexity that is freed by absolute simplicity and unity for the first time..

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Thank you for your post, Mark.  

 

 

Yer welcome, nice to have some folks to play badminton with.

 

Quote

So, do you mean the cessation of "doership"? It seems to me that probably the cessation of "self" would be the deeper (but related) cessation?
 

There are a lot of cessations mentioned in the sermons, but the whole teaching is about the cessation of "determinate thought" in action, first in speech, then in the body, then in the mind.  The Main Guy further delineated that with regard to the body, cessation of action was the cessation of (determinate thought in) in-breathing and out-breathing, and with regard to the mind cessation of action was the cessation of (determinate thought in) perceiving and feeling.

Some of the other cessations:  cessation of dis-ease in the first concentration.  Thought is applied and sustained in the first concentration, in Gautama's case apparently to the sixteen elements of the mindfulness that made up his way of living.  Cessation of unhappiness in the second concentration, marked by the cessation of thought applied and sustained.  Cessation of ease apart from equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses, in the third concentration.  Cessation of happiness apart from equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses, in the fourth concentration.  Cessation of equanimity with respect to the multiplicity of the senses and the induction of equanimity with respect to the uniformity of the senses, in the first of the further states, "the infinity of ether", that state being the excellence of the heart's release through the extension of the mind of compassion throughout the four quarters of the world, above, below, without limit.

Fun stuff.  But yeah, the attainment of the fourth of the initial states, cessation of action of the body--then no "latent conceits that I am the doer, mine is the doer with regard to this consciousness-informed body."  That I think is the reference in "the witness of cessation, breathing in; the witness of cessation, breathing out" that constitutes the fifteenth of the elements of Gautama's mindfulness.  Not the witness of cessation of (determinate thought) in perceiving and feeling, that is the attainment associated with Gautama's enlightenment, and although he may have been able to touch that any time he wanted, the evidence in his sermons is that he usually moved from the cessation of action of the body to the "survey-sign", which I presume was the way to call up the cessation of action of the body in the course of the sixteen elements.

Gautama took the emphasis off enlightenment in some of the sermons, pointing instead to his way of living, the sixteen elements of his mindfulness.  I tend to think of this as an evolution in his teaching, but there's no way to pinpoint the time line of the teachings, for the most part.  He definitely recommended the sixteen elements after so many of his monks committed suicide, practicing meditation on "the unlovely" aspects of the body (SN V chapter on in-breathing and out-breathing).
 

[liminal_luke]

I've just about had it with the non-dual supremacists.  And to think they tried to stage a coup, taking over the capitol building and everything.

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

I would call that a "dharma" dream. There is plenty of teaching in there, I agree.

 

Taking apart the structure of reality is what Hanh is talking about. Separating the parts we create from what is underlying. Trying to hold it up as delusion disintegrates. Surrendering to the fear of letting it all just fall apart. Seeing that structure IS the space - form is emptiness and emptiness form. Finally, complete surrender to reality as it and the realization that what you thought you were continues to manifest with our without you. 

 

Meditation in open awareness without an object is absolutely about establishing a perspective where the ways we build what we think of as "reality" can be examined from a lack of attachment to what or how they present. Repeated exposure to resting in the "natural state" makes the structure fall away. This sort of meditation exists in all non-dual traditions in one way or another. 

 

The issue for me is that this ‘natural state’ that nondualists describe sounds a lot like anandamaya kosha to me:
 

 

Quote

 

The last of the five koshas is anandamaya kosha—the bliss sheath. Anandamaya encompasses not the feeling of bliss, but rather, the experience of bliss. In contrast to vijnanamaya kosha, you do not witness the bliss sheath, you are the bliss. Bliss can be thought of not as an ecstatic happiness or even joy, but a steady state of being, no matter what circumstance arises.

The state of wholeness, of integration with the moment and with yourself, encompasses the inner sheath of anandamaya. This bliss state is usually experienced in fleeting moments, but can remain for longer periods.

Anandamaya pervades each of the previous outer sheaths, but is only experienced once we are able to peel the illusions of each sheath away to reveal our true nature. Anandamaya can be experienced in those moments when you are wholly immersed in that which you are doing—when you no longer separate yourself from your experience.

Striving to reach anandamaya kosha is a futile attempt, for it is only revealed when we release any form of mind control over it. Anandamaya is not of the mind. It is a deeper experience than that which can be contemplated. Even describing it in words is not completely accurate. The bliss of a child fully immersed in the moment—that is anandamaya.

 

 

The issue is that “anandamaya kosha is still a sheath, a layer that can be peeled back. When anandamaya is peeled away, we reach atman—our very center. Atman is our direct connection with the divine, with the essence of all that is. It is our pure consciousness.” 
 

So I’m basically saying there is something beyond the ‘natural experience of nonduality’.

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

 

A question for you: What do you think your "self" is? What would happen if you lost it? This is not a trick question intended to "trap" you.

 

The problem with ‘self’ is not ‘self’ but self’s identification with consciousness states that are ‘not self’, up to and including anandamaya kosha. My ‘self’ would be equivalent to atman, permanently free from the restrictions of identification of myself as body, mind, emotions or anandamaya kosha. What that would be like is impossible and pointless for me to guess at, but as has been mentioned earlier it’s likely to be hard to describe. 
 

The idea of losing atman is on a whole different level, I don’t think it can even be contemplated until one has actually arrived at that point in the first place. Equally whether atman experiences itself in a dual or nondual way is impossible to guess at, and actually unnecessary to know anyway, the only thing that ever needs to be known is how to disentangle atman from identification with the koshas, everything beyond that will be as it is. 

[stirling]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I've just about had it with the non-dual supremacists.  And to think they tried to stage a coup, taking over the capitol building and everything.

 

Maybe they think they are just a bunch of fun-lovin' criminals just out for a good time, but I honestly think they are destroying our orderly society with their increasingly unreasonable demands. 

[Mark Foote]

21 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Maybe they think they are just a bunch of fun-lovin' criminals just out for a good time...

 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

35 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I've just about had it with the non-dual supremacists.  And to think they tried to stage a coup, taking over the capitol building and everything.

Well they have rather successfully staged a coup, and are now ensconced as the dominant ‘Eastern’ and New Age spiritual paradigm. Hordes of smug nondual awakened bastards coming to a store near you. 

[doc benway]

55 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I've just about had it with the non-dual supremacists.  And to think they tried to stage a coup, taking over the capitol building and everything.

 

I’m so empty…

….I tried to get a non-dual supremacy tattoo but couldn’t, nothing for the ink to stain!

💪🏼

 

And I know who BOTH my parents are…

😝

 

 

[old3bob]

8 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I’m so empty…

….I tried to get tattooed but couldn’t, nothing for the ink to stain!

💪🏼

 

just ask that they use invisible ink for a normally invisible vehicle...

[dwai]

I’m awake

you’re awake

stop pretending

drop defending 

tattoos and ink

gone in a blink

and the rainbow bloke

disappears in a puff of smoke

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by dwai
Correcting crimes against rhyme-anity

[doc benway]

You’re so awake… I heard you got arrested for resisting a rest!

🤓

[natural]

2 minutes ago, steve said:

You’re so awake… I heard you got arrested for resisting a rest!

🤓

 

2 minutes ago, steve said:

You’re so awake… I heard you got arrested for resisting a rest!

🤓

 

No, I was napping what the heck is going down?

[stirling]

46 minutes ago, Bindi said:

The issue is that “anandamaya kosha is still a sheath, a layer that can be peeled back. When anandamaya is peeled away, we reach atman—our very center. Atman is our direct connection with the divine, with the essence of all that is. It is our pure consciousness.” 

So I’m basically saying there is something beyond the ‘natural experience of nonduality’.

 

It's an interesting idea, but how would you know? The Arhat (for example) sees through the contrivance of any separate self as witness. So would "anyone" in alignment with the Dao. In your proposed system only Brahma/Atman could claim such a thing, as far as I can tell.

 

Quote

The problem with ‘self’ is not ‘self’ but self’s identification with consciousness states that are ‘not self’, up to and including anandamaya kosha. My ‘self’ would be equivalent to atman, permanently free from the restrictions of identification of myself as body, mind, emotions or anandamaya kosha. What that would be like is impossible and pointless for me to guess at, but as has been mentioned earlier it’s likely to be hard to describe. 

Non-dual realization once stabilized is complete disidentification. It is not exactly blissful, though there is an equanimity which could be described as pleasant, if you were labelling it.

 

Quote

The idea of losing atman is on a whole different level, I don’t think it can even be contemplated until one has actually arrived at that point in the first place. Equally whether atman experiences itself in a dual or nondual way is impossible to guess at, and actually unnecessary to know anyway, the only thing that ever needs to be known is how to disentangle atman from identification with the koshas, everything beyond that will be as it is. 

 

Same difference. Difficulty in contemplating it is perhaps THE hallmark of non-dual understanding. Atman IS Brahman, IMHO. Atman/Brahman IS non-dual. Non-dual understanding is actually seeing through concepts like koshas, and the philosophical distinctions of ALL supposed systems and practices. 

 

I guess we just disagree, which is utterly fine. I sincerely hope there is a moment of realization for you in the future where all of your thoughts on these matters are permanently settled and made irrelevant. 

 

Deep bows.

[liminal_luke]

A Washington D.C. citizen oversight committee has issued a report criticizing what they called an inept and abjectly unprepared police force. A union spokesman responded pointing out the difficulty of keeping the peace in an increasingly awakened society.  As one rookie put it, you try handcuffing someone without a discrete body.  In a special training session, officers were provided with butterfly nets in order to apprehend criminal followers of Chuang Tzu.

Edited May 5, 2022 by liminal_luke

[doc benway]

How many non-dualists does it take to screw in a light bulb?

 

 

 

Not two!

 

🥁

[Mark Foote]

I like Gautama's teachings, because he casts the cessation of volition in action as the first link in the chain leading to the cessation of suffering:

 

But if we neither will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, there is no becoming of an object for the persistance of consciousness. The object being absent, there comes to be no station of consciousness. Consciousness not being stationed and growing, no rebirth of renewed existence takes place in the future, and herefrom birth, decay-and-death, grief, lamenting, suffering, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire mass of ill.

 

(SN II 65, Pali Text Society SN Vol II pg 45)

 

 

He offered that "birth, decay-and-death, grief... this entire mass of ill" was actually just grasping after self in the five groups (material form, feeling, the mind, habitual tendencies, and consciousness):

 

Birth is anguish, old age and decay, sickness, death, sorrow, grief, woe, lamentation, and despair are ill. Not to get what one desires is ill. In short, the five groups based on grasping are ill.
 

(AN I 176, Pali Text Society Vol I pg 160)

Of course, that's only one of many renditions of the chain that he offered, but it's the one that's relevant to me.

The station of consciousness, that's the opposite of the mind that moves.  The mind that moves feels like:

 

 

Again, a (person), putting away ease… enters and abides in the fourth musing; seated, (one) suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind. … just as a (person) might sit with (their) head swathed in a clean cloth; even so (one) sits suffusing (their) body with purity…

 

(AN III 25-28, Pali Text Society Vol. III pg 18-19)

 

 

The mind that moves is pure because it's non-dual.  You got duality, you got a stationary mind (you suffer).  The mind that moves can be experienced just before falling asleep.  Koun Franz also describes letting the mind move, as an experiment (“No Struggle [Zazen Yojinki, Part 6]”, by Koun Franz, from the “Nyoho Zen” site
https://nyoho.com/2018/09/15/no-struggle-zazen-yojinki-part-6/).

 

 It's subtle, like whether or not it was an insurrection at the capitol...

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Mark Foote

[silent thunder]

I'm so non-dual... my pants only got one leg.

[dwai]

One Ring to school them all

One Ring to no-mind them

One Ring to unite them all

And in the emptiness rewind them 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

It's an interesting idea, but how would you know? The Arhat (for example) sees through the contrivance of any separate self as witness. So would "anyone" in alignment with the Dao. In your proposed system only Brahma/Atman could claim such a thing, as far as I can tell.

 

Non-dual realization once stabilized is complete disidentification. It is not exactly blissful, though there is an equanimity which could be described as pleasant, if you were labelling it.

 

 

Complete disidentification? What about The Scam of Nonduality. Emotional dysfunction persists beyond nondual awakening. So you either have to categorise the emotionally dysfunctional nondual awakened as not really having had a nondual awakening, or acknowledge that nondual awakening in general is only part of an equation. Awakening to atman is an ultimate solution because all koshas including the emotional kosha level are transcended, the entire limited consciousness structure collapses. If emotional or mental dysfunction remain at all then I can say the whole kosha structure remains operational because it has to collapse in its entirety to be truly overcome. 

In my understanding of the kosha system emotional and mental health would have been dealt with at an earlier stage, equivalent to disentangling the tendrils and branches of the vine from the structure first.
 

Equally, without disentangling the tendrils and the branches first, perception of what is vine and what is wood at the the trunk of the vine is impossible.  

If the above is the state of store consciousness and manas, how can they be easily separated? Or does the Arhat simply ignore it as illusion? Or is it the case that if no one is there to see it then it effectively doesn’t exist, even though emotional dysfunction patently still exists? 

 

Quote

 

Same difference. Difficulty in contemplating it is perhaps THE hallmark of non-dual understanding. Atman IS Brahman, IMHO. Atman/Brahman IS non-dual. Non-dual understanding is actually seeing through concepts like koshas, and the philosophical distinctions of ALL supposed systems and practices. 

 

I guess we just disagree, which is utterly fine. I sincerely hope there is a moment of realization for you in the future where all of your thoughts on these matters are permanently settled and made irrelevant. 

 

Deep bows.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Bindi

[stirling]

35 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Emotional dysfunction persists beyond nondual awakening. So you either have to categorise the emotionally dysfunctional nondual awakened as not really having had a nondual awakening, or acknowledge that nondual awakening in general is only part of an equation. Awakening to atman is an ultimate solution because all koshas including the emotional kosha level are transcended, the entire limited consciousness structure collapses. If emotional or mental dysfunction remain at all then I can say the whole kosha structure remains operational because it has to collapse in its entirety to be truly overcome.

 

I'm sorry but I don't accept your either/or. It is a false dichotomy, and neither are true. 

 

Here is the bad news: Understanding the nature of reality doesn't whisk you away to a fairyland. This IS reality and always has been. There are wars, plagues, and assholes that do unconscionable things. There is also still the "character" you play with the life, job, responsibilities and people you know - as well as (at least to begin with) the kind of person you were. Whether or not you are emotionally dysfunctional has NOTHING to do with non dual understanding. Being able to see how things actually are doesn't suddenly make you a saint. It takes time for the cherished/curated/contrived person you have been to wind down. Usually those who gain this insight will practice with a teacher for as much as 10 years after. This is where the 4 path model could be helpful:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_awakening

 

Awakening is "Stream Entry". Each "stage" after roughly corresponds to insight deepening and "self" continuing to fall away. Eventually there is the complete insight into no-self. Having said this - this is JUST a model, like your model of the koshas. ALL models are conceptual constructs that do not represent any kind of reality.

 

Quote

“The awakened mind is turned upside down and does not accord even with the Buddha-wisdom.” - Hui Hai

 

All such models and stories DO collapse upon realization of non-duality. This whole idea that you are a person who is in charge of your destiny, or that which practice you choose is in your hands, is nonsense. Projecting yourself or objects into the future and thinking what you imagine might REALLY happen, or imagining that something that happened to you in the past has any absolute reality is nonsense. Imagining that there is me or you to argue is nonsense. Frankly, it is complete madness, but it is how it is. There is just "this", happening "now". 

 

Quote

In my understanding of the kosha system emotional and mental health would have been dealt with at an earlier stage, equivalent to disentangling the tendrils and branches of the vine from the structure first.
 

Equally, without disentangling the tendrils and the branches first, perception of what is vine and what is wood at the the trunk of the vine is impossible.  

If the above is the state of store consciousness and manas, how can they be easily separated? Or does the Arhat simply ignore it as illusion? Or is it the case that if no one is there to see it then it effectively doesn’t exist, even though emotional dysfunction patently still exists? 

 

In a relative sense it absolutely helps to work with the situations in your life, but it matters HOW you do it. 

 

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Two_truths

 

Your belief in the relative world is your real obscuration and mental illness. Clinging to things being a certain way, or aversion to how things actually exist in this moment are the emotional and mental health items you would need to tackle. Once you understand what clinging and aversion are, or possibly have some teaching about how to identify them if it is not obvious, it becomes easier to work on letting go of them as they arise. This is "growing up" practice. It would ideally be taught with an eye toward generating compassion for other beings, to soften the cherishing of the "self". This is the best way to avoid becoming an enlightened asshole. 

 

An Arhat has a moment after awakening and a few years of such continued practice where the last "tendril" is pushed out of the way, and a complete and permanent shift in perspective dawns. After this shift it is understood that the "character" was always a fiction, as well as the "play" that arises with it in our perspective. It is seen and understood that the entire field of experience is a plane of phenomena arising and passing in this moment, which includes the sensations, thoughts, and feelings that would previously have been attributed to a "self".

 

To answer your question, there aren't any appearances in consciousness that have "perfect behavior". An Arhat would likely tell you that actions arise with the conditions of a moment. A terrorist blows up a busy marketplace full of women and children - he and his group consider their actions to be noble and just. Others are horrified. Who is right exactly? "Emotional dysfunction" just IS, like war and taxes and anything else you experience. Enlightenment won't mean that your father didn't beat you, but it won't have the same impact on you when you understand that this moment is the only one that has ever existed. This won't stop crying at the memory either, but like all thoughts and feelings it simply appears and disappears with the rest of the phenomenal world.

[old3bob]

.skip

Edited May 6, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

I'm sorry but I don't accept your either/or. It is a false dichotomy, and neither are true. 

 

Here is the bad news: Understanding the nature of reality doesn't whisk you away to a fairyland. This IS reality and always has been. There are wars, plagues, and assholes that do unconscionable things. There is also still the "character" you play with the life, job, responsibilities and people you know - as well as (at least to begin with) the kind of person you were. Whether or not you are emotionally dysfunctional has NOTHING to do with non dual understanding.
 

 

Agreed, emotional dysfunction, abusiveness, temper, addiction, all have nothing to do with nondual understanding as it is presented by nondualists.

 

Quote

Being able to see how things actually are doesn't suddenly make you a saint. It takes time for the cherished/curated/contrived person you have been to wind down. Usually those who gain this insight will practice with a teacher for as much as 10 years after. This is where the 4 path model could be helpful:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_awakening

 

Awakening is "Stream Entry". Each "stage" after roughly corresponds to insight deepening and "self" continuing to fall away. Eventually there is the complete insight into no-self. Having said this - this is JUST a model, like your model of the koshas. ALL models are conceptual constructs that do not represent any kind of reality.

 

 

All such models and stories DO collapse upon realization of non-duality.
 

 

 

If all stories collapse upon realisation of nonduality, what are the further ten years for? They all collapse, but it takes ten years to let go of all the collapsed stories? 

 

Quote

This whole idea that you are a person who is in charge of your destiny, or that which practice you choose is in your hands, is nonsense. Projecting yourself or objects into the future and thinking what you imagine might REALLY happen, or imagining that something that happened to you in the past has any absolute reality is nonsense. Imagining that there is me or you to argue is nonsense. Frankly, it is complete madness, but it is how it is. There is just "this", happening "now". 

 

 

In a relative sense it absolutely helps to work with the situations in your life, but it matters HOW you do it. 

 

https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Two_truths

 

Your belief in the relative world is your real obscuration and mental illness. Clinging to things being a certain way, or aversion to how things actually exist in this moment are the emotional and mental health items you would need to tackle. Once you understand what clinging and aversion are, or possibly have some teaching about how to identify them if it is not obvious, it becomes easier to work on letting go of them as they arise. This is "growing up" practice. It would ideally be taught with an eye toward generating compassion for other beings, to soften the cherishing of the "self". This is the best way to avoid becoming an enlightened asshole. 

 

 

As a nondualist how can you choose anything let alone whether you’d like to become an enlightened asshole or an enlightened saint, when as you say above the “whole idea that you are a person who is in charge of your destiny, or that which practice you choose is in your hands, is nonsense. Projecting yourself or objects into the future and thinking what you imagine might REALLY happen, or imagining that something that happened to you in the past has any absolute reality is nonsense.“ You can choose or you can’t choose, you can’t have your cake and eat it. 

 

Quote

 

An Arhat has a moment after awakening and a few years of such continued practice where the last "tendril" is pushed out of the way, and a complete and permanent shift in perspective dawns. After this shift it is understood that the "character" was always a fiction, as well as the "play" that arises with it in our perspective. It is seen and understood that the entire field of experience is a plane of phenomena arising and passing in this moment, which includes the sensations, thoughts, and feelings that would previously have been attributed to a "self".

 

To answer your question, there aren't any appearances in consciousness that have "perfect behavior". An Arhat would likely tell you that actions arise with the conditions of a moment. A terrorist blows up a busy marketplace full of women and children - he and his group consider their actions to be noble and just. Others are horrified. Who is right exactly?
 

 

If your practice hasn’t led you to recognising which action is right between these two, then I don’t think it is a healthy practice for humanity as a whole. My practice has a maxim: “When I think I think of others”. The closer I am to living this maxim the closer I am to my end point. I have no interest in philosophical justification for abuse. 

 

Quote

"Emotional dysfunction" just IS, like war and taxes and anything else you experience. Enlightenment won't mean that your father didn't beat you, but it won't have the same impact on you when you understand that this moment is the only one that has ever existed. This won't stop crying at the memory either, but like all thoughts and feelings it simply appears and disappears with the rest of the phenomenal world.

It would be good to be a nondually awakened Ukrainian at the moment.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Bindi

[old3bob]

Btw, and for some folks  please be aware that (Lord) Brahma the god,  has different meaning from Brahman which is beyond all categories.

[stirling]

11 hours ago, Bindi said:

If all stories collapse upon realisation of nonduality, what are the further ten years for? They all collapse, but it takes ten years to let go of all the collapsed stories?

 

Immediately after realization you are dropped back into duality, but with the knowledge that ultimate reality is non-dual. Over a short period of time being able to see the non-dual becomes an "available perspective" - an ability to lift the curtain and see how things are when attention is directed toward it. It takes some time for the larger remaining obscurations and habituated patters to finally resolve enough for the self-to drop away. Eventually, when the illusion of "self" drops away, the delusion of duality drops away. The non-dual quality of reality is ALWAYS visible in duality.  
 

Quote

 

“Form is emptiness; emptiness is form. Form is not different than emptiness; emptiness is not different than form.” - Buddha, Heart Sutra

 

 

Quote

Things are objects because there is a subject or mind;
and the mind is a subject because there are objects.
Understand the relativity of these two
and the basic reality: the unity of emptiness. - Seng T'san, Tsin Tsin Ming

 

-

 

Quote

As a nondualist how can you choose anything let alone whether you’d like to become an enlightened asshole or an enlightened saint, when as you say above the “whole idea that you are a person who is in charge of your destiny, or that which practice you choose is in your hands, is nonsense. Projecting yourself or objects into the future and thinking what you imagine might REALLY happen, or imagining that something that happened to you in the past has any absolute reality is nonsense.“ You can choose or you can’t choose, you can’t have your cake and eat it. 

 

No-one chooses. Things happen. If there is no-self there is no resistance - there can be in alignment with what wants to happen. Lao Tzu would call it "being in accord with the way". It is commonly referred to as "wu wei". It is being present with what is happening and allowing it to happen - through "you" if it needs to. 

 

Quote

If your practice hasn’t led you to recognising which action is right between these two, then I don’t think it is a healthy practice for humanity as a whole. My practice has a maxim: “When I think I think of others”. The closer I am to living this maxim the closer I am to my end point. I have no interest in philosophical justification for abuse. 

 

You are putting words in my mouth. I am glad you have your maxim. I have many years of practicing "moral" practices and keep the precepts, but these things are just conditioning that doesn't seem to fall away at this point. Still, reality is non-dual. Things are as they are whether you like them or have an opinion on which is "just". Your maxim and the deeper non-dual nature of things coexist, but one of them won't eventually fade from history.

 

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It would be good to be a nondually awakened Ukrainian at the moment.

 

It might be worth examining what makes you so frustrated about what a stranger on the internet posts in answer to your thread on dualism vs. non-dualism. I feel I am answering your posts courteously. Is there some reason we can't be collegial?