Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 The nondualist doesn’t need therapy 

 

No?  I think they often do.  

 

While I don't have extensive experience with nondual traditions, the experience I do have suggests that they're very much about sitting with what is.  Emotions are warmly embraced along with everything else.  The phrase "it's just a story" might sound dismissive but that's just a story.  That said, a person could easily get a different impression reading about nondualism on Dao Bums.  To me, the tenor of these threads often feels super theoretical, abstracted, perhaps a little cold.  Maybe that's just a function of the nature of online discussion.  Perhaps especially of online discussion that's public, not associated with a particular community of engaged practitioners.  In person, the practice feels much warmer, inclusive of the full range of human experience.  

Edited May 12, 2022 by liminal_luke

[dwai]

Self - “Yikes! Some of I have it in for I”

also Self - “What do I mean?”

Self - “Some Of I want to prove that I am not Completely I, or worse, I don’t exist”

Also Self - “So who does and knows these things? Anything?”

Self - “Some of I want to be blobs of light…some of I thinks that I arise together with objects. Some of I want to say I am not One I, but many I” 

Also Self - “I I I….oh I oh I, a very difficult situation indeed. When I explore as to who I am, I find no thing. I think some of I is so used to finding things, that ‘no thing’ is taken as absence. But if some of I spent more I-time, it would be clear that I is not an experience. I is that which makes experience possible. Everything I experience is a modification of I-ness.”

Self - “How can Some of I not recognize this?”

Also Self - “some of I is still pretending to be Not I. I started out as a game of hide and seek…but to make it convincing, really pretended to be not I, and appear as many I. It too is part of the game. It might be tiring to I who has stopped pretending, but I must let I pretend too. That is the show. And the show must go on!”

 

[awaken]

真正的非二元不是假裝無我

而是去面對真正的我對於內在的控制欲

例如想要把氣固定在下腹部的控制欲

想要在整個修煉當中保持意識存在的控制欲

想要追逐某種特定的現象的控制欲

如果看不見這個控制欲，就看不見基於這個控制欲所產生的強加力量或者壓抑力量

 

True non-dual is not pretending to be selfless

but to face the real self-control of me

For example, the desire to control the qi in the lower abdomen

The desire for control to maintain conscious existence throughout the practice

The desire to control a particular phenomenon

If you can't see this desire for control, you can't see the imposing or repressive forces that are based on this desire for control.

[ralis]

How many pages will this thread go on for?  Can't describe or quantify it because there are no answers, just opinions. 

[awaken]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

How many pages will this thread go on for?  Can't describe or quantify it because there are no answers, just opinions. 

 

可以量化的，只是大多數的人選擇忽略而停在自己原本的思想當中

 

It can be quantified, but most people here just choose to ignore and stay in their own thoughts

 

因為非二元屬於心的方向，如果有所領悟，就能在修煉上有所突破

能夠從二禪定進步到第三禪定

能夠從烏肝進步到兔髓

都是有明確的定義的

Because non-dual belongs to the direction of the mind, if you really understand it, you will be able to make breakthroughs in cultivation.

Able to progress from the second jhāna to the third jhāna 

Can progress from black liver to rabbit marrow

are clearly defined

[ralis]

8 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

可以量化的，只是大多數的人選擇忽略而停在自己原本的思想當中

 

It can be quantified, but most people here just choose to ignore and stay in their own thoughts

 

因為非二元屬於心的方向，如果有所領悟，就能在修煉上有所突破

能夠從二禪定進步到第三禪定

能夠從烏肝進步到兔髓

都是有明確的定義的

Because non-dual belongs to the direction of the mind, if you really understand it, you will be able to make breakthroughs in cultivation.

Able to progress from the second jhāna to the third jhāna 

Can progress from black liver to rabbit marrow

are clearly defined

 

Most of this thread is anthropocentric in nature. Humans are not the center of the universe and are nothing special no matter what anyone believes! 

[awaken]

如果把非二元當成宇宙論或者哲學

那還不如去看中國神仙動畫

可能更有趣些

 

 

If one think of non-duality as cosmology or philosophy

It's better to watch Chinese fairy animation

maybe more interesting

 

 

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, awaken said:

如果把非二元當成宇宙論或者哲學

那還不如去看中國神仙動畫

可能更有趣些

 

 

If one think of non-duality as cosmology or philosophy

It's better to watch Chinese fairy animation

maybe more interesting

 

 

 

I would characterize your posts as opinions. The really dangerous illusion is that language can describe the phenomenal world in absolute terms. That is impossible!

[awaken]

11 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

I would characterize your posts as opinions. The really dangerous illusion is that language can describe the phenomenal world in absolute terms. That is impossible!

 

本來非二元就不存在語言和思想的世界中

Originally non-dual does not exist in the world of language and thought

 

非二元是存在於非語言非思想的狀態中

non-dual is existing in a state of non-verbal non-thought

 

對一個從未練到第二階段禪定狀態的人，這個世界是不存在的

For a person who has never reach the second stage of jahna, the world does not exist

Edited May 12, 2022 by awaken

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

What I haven't seen on this thread is a satisfactory explanation of exactly what 'non-dual' means as everyone confuses it with 'oneness' which is much easier to understand.

 

Typically due to the controversial and misunderstood nature of emptiness from a Buddhist POV and nirguna from a Vedanta POV. 

 

A true introduction should take place "from one warm hand to another" via a teacher in an established tradition. However, for public dissection, I did find you a few definitions: 

 

One source: 

 

"...the state must be non-dual, in that the experience is not structured by the duality of object and subject. It is, instead, ‘non-dual wisdom... For practitioners to experience a non-dual state, however, there must be some form of knowing or experiencing that is not structured by subject– object duality. This form of knowing is ‘reflexive awareness’." 

 

Dunne

 

From some academics, but more problematic: 

 

Nondual awareness (NDA) can be defined as a state of consciousness that rests in the background of all conscious experiencing – a background field of awareness that is unified, immutable, and empty of mental content, yet retains a quality of cognizant bliss (Josipovic, 2014). 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6265073/

[ralis]

 

11 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

本來非二元就不存在語言和思想的世界中

Originally non-dual does not exist in the world of language and thought

 

非二元是存在於非語言非思想的狀態中

non-dual is existing in a state of non-verbal non-thought

 

對一個從未練到第二階段禪定狀態的人，這個世界是不存在的

For a person who has never practiced the second stage of jahna, the world does not exist

 

Given that you have it all figured out then why are you posting here?  Perhaps you are attempting to convince yourself by preaching from your pulpit!

Edited May 12, 2022 by ralis

[awaken]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

 

Given that you have it all figured out then why are you posting here? 

 

你可能搞混了什麼東西吧

 

你該不會以為二禪定就成仙了吧？

 

you might be mixing something up

Don't you think that you will become immortal with the second jahna?

我講的都是很基礎的現象
不是什麼高級的現象
可能太多人被氣功大師誤導
把每次的修煉都放在下腹部的氣感
才導致練不到更深的地方
I'm talking about very basic phenomena
not an advanced phenomenon
Maybe too many people are misled by qigong masters
Put every practice on the qi sensation in the lower abdomen
It leads to not being able to practice deeper

[Apech]

31 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Typically due to the controversial and misunderstood nature of emptiness from a Buddhist POV and nirguna from a Vedanta POV. 

 

A true introduction should take place "from one warm hand to another" via a teacher in an established tradition. However, for public dissection, I did find you a few definitions: 

 

One source: 

 

"...the state must be non-dual, in that the experience is not structured by the duality of object and subject. It is, instead, ‘non-dual wisdom... For practitioners to experience a non-dual state, however, there must be some form of knowing or experiencing that is not structured by subject– object duality. This form of knowing is ‘reflexive awareness’." 

 

Dunne

 

From some academics, but more problematic: 

 

Nondual awareness (NDA) can be defined as a state of consciousness that rests in the background of all conscious experiencing – a background field of awareness that is unified, immutable, and empty of mental content, yet retains a quality of cognizant bliss (Josipovic, 2014). 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6265073/

 

Gobbledegook.

[silent thunder]

Strong scent of Zen in this thread, particularly in recent pages.

 

Resonant with some of Shunryu's insights.

 

As soon as you see something,

you already start to intellectualize it.

As soon as you intellectualize something,

it is no longer what you saw.

 

No teaching could be more direct than just to sit down.

 

Things are always changing, so nothing can be yours.

 

When you sit, everything sits with you.

 

and a couple of DT's as well...

 

However insistently the blind may deny the existence of the sun,

they cannot annihilate it.

 

Foolish are they who turn their backs to the light

and argue about the nature of the shadow in front.

 

Life, according to Zen, ought to be lived as a bird flies through the air,

or as a fish swims in the water.

Edited May 12, 2022 by silent thunder

[stirling]

18 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Almost all of us have suffered deeply -- or will soon -- and it can feel good to sit in the presence of someone who can sit with us in quiet acknowledgement of the depth of our suffering.  Someone who can sit with us without getting anxious (so we don't have to caretake them), someone who won't try to make our suffering go away.  So often we "help" others because they make us feel uncomfortable; we help them so that we'll feel better.  The first thing any would-be helper needs to learn is how to quiet this compulsion to help and just sit in openness and acceptance of someone else's experience.  It could be that as you sit together you'll both discover that pain doesn't have to lead to suffering.  Or maybe not.  The powerful thing is not to know, not to need things to be one way or the other, to let life unfold as it will.

 

This is pretty much the instruction for how to work with the suffering of others as a teacher that my teacher has passed on to me. Beautifully put, Luke. 

[doc benway]

 

Quote

If only I could be a nondual Jeffian light blob and stop troubling y’all. 

 

I don’t feel troubled.

I enjoy your challenges and the discussion it stimulates. It’s been a fun thread.

 

The topic of non-duality is always a difficult one to discuss in a public forum. It’s a very tricky and subtle subject and it’s been actively disputed by many high level scholars and practitioners for millennia. You’re in good company. It’s been kept very secretive for most of that time in the Bön and Buddhist communities for this very reason. 

 

Believe me or not, there is something very special to it. If you are not drawn to it, best to follow what calls you as I have no doubt you will. Warning - the complimentary nature of Yin and Yang is non-dual at its very core so I expect you will bump into it again sooner or later. It can’t hurt to keep an open mind.

[silent thunder]

 

 

 The 10,000 things, 5 aggregates, yin yang... many aspects, one unfolding process.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, ralis said:

How many pages will this thread go on for?  Can't describe or quantify it because there are no answers, just opinions. 

 

Hopefully at least as long as the political threads…

[ralis]

10 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Hopefully at least as long as the political threads…

Defining non-dual etc. will take an infinite length of time. An argument of this magnitude will fill every server on the planet, just for starters. 

Edited May 12, 2022 by ralis

[stirling]

18 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Sorry, that makes no sense to me. 

The linked Wikipedia article didn't really clarify what is meant either.

 

When you meditate, and the mind is quiet and empty listen carefully. Does a birds call sound like it comes from your ear, or from out in the forest, or down the street somewhere. 

 

Quote

Are you suggesting that perceived reality is somehow just an illusion?

 

I am saying that your mental model of how you perceive reality is wrong. I would also suggest that reality AS YOU UNDERSTAND IT is has illusory elements that you fill in.

 

Quote

All claims regarding the 'emptiness' of the senses I heard so far struck me as pretty fruitless abstractions.

 

It isn't the philosophical understanding you are after but the experiential understanding. Your experience isn't an abstraction is it?

 

Quote

That would not seem to hold true for all encompassing vision, however. The latter transcends the usual subject/object distinction. Alright, maybe we are about to find some common ground after all.

 

Right. Why should any of your senses get a pass?

 

Quote

The notion of infinity is indeed a loaded one. There is surely more to the concept than just space that goes on forever (or time, in which case we would speak of eternity). It's actually a metaphysical concept, although its properties can be studied in rigorous scientific ways.

 

As a conceptual overlay it is difficult to fathom, but doesn't seem impossible. As an experiential understanding it is much easier to apprehend, though it require the complete remediation of your world view.

 

Quote

 

Anthrosophical mathematicians believe that that kind of study helps expand the mind towards an understanding of transcendence. A truly effective approach in my personal experience.

 

For instance, it's easy to see that, with increasing diameter of a sphere, its curvature decreases. It follows that, if the sphere were expanded to infinity, its curvature would reach zero. In other words, the sphere would become a flat plane.

 

Now if you were located at the centre of that sphere (which you  couldn't help being, anyway, because its centre would be everywhere at all), that flat plane in infinity would surround you in every direction. Mind you, without any corners - it would still be a sphere!

 

Some simple geometric exercises  demonstrate that this infinite sphere does exist. You could not lay a finger on it anywhere. It can not be fully grasped by the finite mind, either, to be sure. But contemplating it does serve to stretch the imagination. 

 

 

Sounds much like many spiritual propositions designed to back the mind into a corner! Could be useful, I imagine. 

 

Quote

The question of setting exact boundaries, alright. Yes, any object exists in a plethora of all pervasive influences, connecting it to countless other objects. And yet it has certain boundaries making it distinct from others (e.g., the Coulomb force in particle physics).

 

Is the Coulomb force something you can touch or apprehend with your own experience, or merely a philosophical construct that does a fine job of explaining a phenomena? Science has a way of treating it's models as realities that isn't healthy... or is unintentionally hilarious. This once recently made me laugh out loud:

 

https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/36726/20220322/dark-matter-evidence-anti-universe-running-backward-through-time-mirrors.htm

 

So... we need to create a conceptual universe in which time runs backwards in order to make the entirely theoretical existence of dark matter work? 

 

Quote

 

I actually once got an inkling of the unimaginable information processing that is constantly happening in our Sun when I was in a contemplative state. That was one of the most exhilarating and joyful experiences I ever had in my life! There was a strange familiarity involved, too, as though it invoked an old memory. Impossible to put it into words, though.

 

This filled me with awe and left me painfully aware of how limited my oh so linear human mind really was in comparison to the consciousness of a star.

 

 

Science as a religious experience! I don't think you are alone in having such experiences. 

 

Quote

I don't look at the individual personality as an illusion. I do consider it an open system of sorts, though, and ultimately interconnected with All That Is.

 

This is the beauty of Dependent Origination. If all things exist dependent on other things for their existence, how many independently existing things ARE there?

 

Quote

I am aware that most Buddhists may disagree with me on this. In fact, already argued about the question as a twenty-year-old lad with a Zen priest in Kyoto's Sosenji, until he gave up and moved on with his lecture. 

 

It is less important what a Zen priest thinks of your theory, and MORE important what your experiential knowledge tells you. Keep looking!

 

Quote

It seems unlikely that we will be able to fully resolve the issue now to everyone's satisfaction.

 

The thinking mind seems to have endless facility to obfuscate what can be seen. It is as it is.

[liminal_luke]

pages on a screen

annoying gobbledegook

heart whispers: this too

 

 

[Sherman Krebbs]

 

8 minutes ago, ralis said:

Defining non-dual etc. will take an infinite length of time.  An argument of this magnitude will fill every server on the planet, just for starters.

 

Weren't there were public debates about this maybe in the Yuan dynasty?  Given that we are still arguing about it, maybe this statement is accurate.  

 

Seems to me, however, that dual and non-dual are really just two sides of the same coin.  

 

 

[Apech]

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

pages on a screen

annoying gobbledegook

heart whispers: this too

 

 

 

is two too many

the hearts clasp is non-jewel

someone robbed my ring.

 

 

 

[natural]

5 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

is two too many

the hearts clasp is non-jewel

someone robbed my ring.

 

 

 

now that's unusual if not weird?

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, natural said:

now that's unusual if not weird?

 

it takes a sophisticated and refined intellect to grasp the meaning of the poetry of the non-dual.