Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[doc benway]

14 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

Laid down, mentally connected with downstairs and then...bam

 

I was in the beautiful summer air, the deepest blue with nice fat white clouds, or was I?

I was that sky

 

but 'I' was not there. The I was folded up real small, so small as to be totally un-interfering.

at the same time there was an awareness of the body which was lying down in a stupor, someone was standing beside it. ( later I heard that someone had gone up to check on me)

 

so there was an awareness of being the sky, being into the sky, and something about the body

 

the one typing this remembers, but somehow was not involved

 

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

I haven’t experienced non-duality but I have experienced ‘non-clinging mind’ for two entire days, thoughts flowing through without any grasping onto them, disentangled from them, and this was a very nice experience. So my sights are set lower, I look forward to this ungrasped thought state being permanent one day. 

 

9 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Space is not empty. I wish that Buddhists or whomever came up with that term would stop using that it. Emptiness is not in my experience whatsoever. 

 

Emptiness points to the absence, or non-interference of self in experience. Bindi and Blue Eyed Snake describe it in their experiences above. It is an important part of my practice. It is empty but clear and vital. Space is not empty, space is a metaphor for the non-grasping and unbounded aspect of the mind’s essence.

[ralis]

37 minutes ago, steve said:

 

 

 

Emptiness points to the absence, or non-interference of self in experience. Bindi and Blue Eyed Snake describe it in their experiences above. It is an important part of my practice. It is empty but clear and vital. Space is not empty, space is a metaphor for the non-grasping and unbounded aspect of the mind’s essence.

 

Emptiness points? In what way does conceptual emptiness point? Pointing is a physical act. Self doesn't interfere in experience? 

 

I asked my partner what she thought of your post. She hung out with the Advaita groups for years and found it to be problematic in that a "self" is desperately trying to prove "no self." Or, to use the mind to discredit the mind. 

 

In all my years taking teachings from Tibetan lama's I heard about no self and emptiness ad nauseam,  and felt as if I was being brain washed! That is why I left the Tibetan Lama Dharma King cult! BTW, I don't include Norbu in that bunch. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by ralis

[silent thunder]

Words often seem like tiny things when trying to convey a sense of experiential processes unfolding through awareness.  Particularly when so many words may have acquired many and subtle variations of meanings.  Not to mention translational challenges. 

 

Seems auspicious to encounter the futility of words, sometimes in that gap of futility this one slips back into experiential presence, this breath now.  Where no words arise or are required.

 

Seems Auspicious to slide into natural presence, to simply be, whether wordless or wordy...   There resonates of late, an abiding sense of dancing through answerlessness and it seems like  home.  Expansive, Clear, Gossamer, Luminous, Thundering Silence, Awareness.  Many tiny words when attempting to describe such... dancing answerlessness.

 

Many words... and so, a few more:

Sonorous Silence.

Answers arise and dissolve.

Answerless Dancing.

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by silent thunder

[ralis]

11 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Words often seem like tiny things when trying to convey a sense of experiential processes unfolding through awareness.  Particularly when so many words may have acquired many and subtle variations of meanings.  Not to mention translational challenges. 

 

Seems auspicious to encounter the futility of words, sometimes in that gap of futility this one slips back into experiential presence, this breath now.  Where no words arise or are required.

 

Seems Auspicious to slide into natural presence, to simply be, whether wordless or wordy...   There resonates of late, an abiding sense of dancing through answerlessness and it seems like  home.  Expansive, Clear, Gossamer, Luminous, Thundering Silence, Awareness.  Many tiny words when attempting to describe such... dancing answerlessness.

 

Many words... and so, a few more:

Sonorous Silence.

Answers arise and dissolve.

Answerless Dancing.

 

Language is believed to be an absolute description of reality. Not so!

[Michael Sternbach]

9 hours ago, dawn90 said:

What is a non-dualist without a poor relationship with their father.

 

Probably at least a duelist.

 

So it comes down to that; really.

 

 

 

I do think you underestimate the complexity of a duelist's relationship with his dad.

 

 

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, ralis said:

 

Emptiness points? In what way does conceptual emptiness point? Pointing is a physical act. Self doesn't interfere in experience? 

 Words point at things, they are not things themselves only labels but there needs to be some shared experience for communication to occur.

 

6 hours ago, ralis said:

 

I asked my partner what she thought of your post. She hung out with the Advaita groups for years and found it to be problematic in that a "self" is desperately trying to prove "no self." Or, to use the mind to discredit the mind. 

I have nothing to prove, nor do I feel any desperation, just sharing my experience.

 

6 hours ago, ralis said:

In all my years taking teachings from Tibetan lama's I heard about no self and emptiness ad nauseam,  and felt as if I was being brain washed! That is why I left the Tibetan Lama Dharma King cult! BTW, I don't include Norbu in that bunch. 

Sounds like it was a good move for you.

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, ralis said:

Language is believed to be an absolute description of reality.

 

By whom?

[blue eyed snake]

On 15-5-2022 at 1:03 PM, schroedingerscat said:

I'd be interested, if there could be found some commonalities of those who entered (non-dual) gnosis. (Day by day seemingly nothing changes, but if you look back, everything is different? Or rather sudden changes or else...)

Did your body change, did you become averse to some, attracted to others? More sensitive, more balanced or the contrary? 

Did you perceive 'energetics' differently than before? Times of many synchronicities and phases where there were none? What patterns are at work there?

 

you're not getting much answers uh...

really I do not feel like I've reached any gnosis, I am just a slithering snake, quietly resting in the bushes.

 

but yes, things changed, several weeks after I was very disbalanced, my whole worldview had toppled over. So much that any psychologist would have popped me some pills as from the outside that may have looked like psychosis. In the long run I've become less reactive. Before the snake was quick to bite and bite hard,  now less so.

 

when I find myself in high emotions I tend turn inwards afterwards and look to the reason that little self is inflamed.

But as I haven't been able to do any formal practice for many years now,  things have watered down.

 

sensitivity grew enormously and there have been some changes to the physical body as well.

 

no idea whether there are patterns, might be. Teacher warned us away from analyzing or 'comparing notes'.

At the time that was a tall order, now it feels like very obvious.

It seems to me that comparing notes can all too easily lead to distorted notions and self-aggrandizing.

 

 

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

20 hours ago, steve said:

 

Quote

 

 

What does that mean, for subject and object to get closer?  I would say that the buddha-nature is the subject and that it is just the egoic self which is attachment to a collection of fear based karmic accumulations is 'lessoned' by realising it is a fiction as a self.

 

When i used that expression, I was referring to my personal experience as a practitioner. 

As the sense of self that is very busy thinking, elaborating, coloring and commenting on my experience slowly releases and rests (getting smaller as blue eyed snake suggests), my experience of whatever is present in that moment, in the senses, in the body, and mind becomes more clear, more immediate, more naked and fresh. I'm trying not to define this so much in conceptual terms but rather staying with the experience of practice. 

 

yes Steve, and that is how I understood it, sort of instant recognition.

 

as I have never talked about the weird things that happened the daily self made up its own language to describe things. Words just do not convey what you talk about when the other ( see how funny this gets) has nothing to relate it too. The word then gets hung up to a totally different concept and conversations get out of hand.

[blue eyed snake]

20 hours ago, steve said:

More on practice and application if "I" doesn't mind...

 

There are several practices that help to bridge the gap between the dual and nondual. I'll mention a few here. 

 

A common tool in dzogchen but also in some Daoist traditions is to turn the light around, to turn awareness back towards itself.

The practitioner as subject becomes aware of the activity of the subject as an object, eg  the activity of thoughts, feelings, attachment to sensory objects and so forth. The subject then turns attention to observe the observer, itself. This results in the extinguishing or collapse of observer and observed as they are not two (non-dual) and cannot maintain self-observation for very long. This collapse allows the immediacy and freshness of the moment to flood in (come very close to our experience) and there is an opportunity to simply rest here in unfabricated presence.

 

Another tool used in dzogchen practice is exhaustion. We can fill and over-stimulate our awareness through a variety of techniques - difficult physical postures, repetitive or outrageous activity (referred to as rushen practices), or reflection on prior experiences, thoughts, feelings, and so forth until we completely exhaust ourselves. In that exhaustion it becomes easier to simply let go, allowing the self to rest and release. Like coming home from a long and tiring day of work, laying down on the couch and completely letting go. This provides another opportunity  for connecting more fully with the unelaborated presence of being without interference. 

 

Yet another tool is turning the subject towards the absence rather than presence of objects of awareness. For example, rather than focus on the  physical sensations and movement of the body, awareness connects to the underlying stillness which is always present within and surrounding the movement. I've never practiced it but I suspect this is similar to what happens in stillness-movement qigong. With prolonged connection to stillness, awareness gradually loosens itself from the confines of the physical body as object of awareness and an expanded sense of self begins to arise. With time we can more easily connect to more pervasive and less restricted sense of self which becomes a powerful refuge and source of previously untapped and unrecognized potential. Similarly we can connect deeply with the silence that hosts sound (inner voices as well as external sounds) and with the spaciousness and openness of heart and mind. We refer to this as practicing with the 3 Doors of body, speech, and mind. 

 

The common thread in all of these techniques is to reduce the influence and interference that comes from over-identifying with a self that is largely composed of karmic baggage - expectations and admonitions adopted from others, culture, and society, dysfunctional patterns, inaccurate assumptions and beliefs, and so forth. We will never be free of a sense of self and frankly it has great value in our lives on multiple levels. On the other hand it has developed too prominent a role and there is value to putting it in its proper place. At least that's what I get out of these practices. 

 

 

yup, those practices are recognizable much.

 

your last sentences, that's what I meant by the daily self folding up smaller.

[blue eyed snake]

19 hours ago, ralis said:

To be very honest, it scared and terrified me like nothing I had ever encountered.

yes

[blue eyed snake]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

 

This resonates with me deeply. Thanks for sharing these. It might come as a surprise, but I don't like to dwell in philosophical argumentation either  ... it is a slippery slope into fanning the ego (so I'm watchful of it). So, your idea of exchanging practical tips is most welcome imho.

 

One very direct and simple practice I found useful in the Self-Inquiry mode is to see if one can identify "who am I?" in a fraction of a second before a single thought has arisen. I found this very puzzling at first, and after repeated attempts, the answer was revealed. It is meant to be explored individually by the practitioner (this is a variation of Ramana Maharshi's 'Who am I?' inquiry).

 

Another method I found useful in the earlier days of my practice was to observe the gap between thoughts. If we pay attention to the thoughts rising and falling in the mind, in the gap there is a luminous clarity. One day, after a relatively vigorous yoga session, I lay down in shavasana and melted my entire physical body away, like butter on a hot pan, only paying attention to the thoughts and the gap between thoughts. Suddenly, the thoughts (mind-stream) became like a bunch of debris floating on a river-surface. 

 

The stillness-movement paradigm is also one which has been helpful to me, in tai chi form practice. In standing practice, it leads to deep cessation of the mind (time and space - collapse). In moving practice, it leads to deep ceassation of time and expansion of space (of awareness).

 

My teacher's early instruction to me was, "don't try to eliminate the ego. The ego is necessary for proper functioning in this world. Let the ego become your obedient servant instead of the tyrannical master it is today". 

 

But I must also state that one needs to study the pointers provided by the wisdom traditions (whatever they might be) to allow the mind/intellect to come into alignment. That is required for closing the proverbial loop of this process. 

 

 

 

that's useful, thanks to your teacher. I always think your teacher and mine are brothers in spirit.

 

I find when I reread the little I read it holds layers I did not see before. Or passages that I could not get my head around have become obvious.

is that what you mean?

[blue eyed snake]

19 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I'm a big propenent of nondual-lite practice.  That's my own term for activities that may not result in nondual awareness, strictly speaking, but edge a practitioner away from dualistic extremes.  To my mind, anything that's perceived as "centering" counts.  Examples would include any kind of creative work (visual art, music making, knitting, crafting, etc), physical exercise and sports, anything that supports the state positive psychologists refer to as "flow."  Mindfulness in general.  Life itself is one big difficult-to-avoid nondual pracitce.  We've all got, as The Beatles might put it, a ticket to ride. 

 

thank you Luke, that's wise words that bring us down to earth.

Not being able to do formal practice this is what happens here too, when I would be able to do formal practice, this would be the way to go too. You cannot separate the daily life from the formal practice, life is practice.

[blue eyed snake]

18 hours ago, steve said:

20 hours ago, ralis said:

 

From my experience the concept of spaciousness is limited. The experience of infinite space both within and without is where the Longde or space series is most valuable. Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but after having my concept of space/time utterly destroyed by Norbu way back in 1989, well............

Space as a concept is very interesting to me and it’s unique characteristics make it an ideal metaphor for the base of all. Mother is also a wonderful metaphor especially when taken with child - mother space and child awareness, their union giving rise to the warmth of enlightened qualities like the Four Immeasurables.

 

Space as a meditative experience is even more profound and is a crucial element in the practices and applications. It is heavily emphasized in Bön.

 

space and time are not anything like how they are presented to the daily living, no idea how/what they are.

 

and I miss the concept of compassion in this thread, is that what you touch on with  the mother-child thing?

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

that's useful, thanks to your teacher. I always think your teacher and mine are brothers in spirit.

They probably are  

4 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

I find when I reread the little I read it holds layers I did not see before. Or passages that I could not get my head around have become obvious.

is that what you mean?

I mean, the practice of methods is intended to work at the level of the mind (or the mind through the body). The purpose is to purify and prepare the mind. The nondual "teaching" is not direct, because the rarest of the rare teachers can directly share it with the rarest of rare students. The "teaching" is an indirect thing -- like fingers pointing to the moon.  In order for nondual realization to be possible, in most cases, there has to be an intellectual understanding of what is being pointed towards. That understanding comes from the study of the "teachings". In Advaita Vedanta, it is in three steps, similar to what Steve mentioned in his tradition. The steps are --

1. Listening to the teachings (preferably studying with a teacher who is themselves Self-realized and knows the material well)
2. Cogitating on the teachings (to solidify the intellectual understanding of the teachings)
3. Meditating on the teachings (to make the intellectual understanding a directly apperceived reality - this is where the irreversible flash of realization occurs). 

[blue eyed snake]

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

I like the perspective that we all have blocks, and as they get removed we approach absolute nature which cannot be experienced directly (what is the difference between experiencing nonduality and experiencing absolute nature?) Perhaps we differ in that I deliberately removed blocks at first, and then later I found the momentum built to a point that it just happens now, wuwei. I’m a big proponent therefore of youwei before wuwei. 

 

 

yes, well that's exactly what happened to me. After dissolving a f*#*#*g big block of about the nastiest shit in this life the tower crumbled, the perspective changed and awareness was.

I never even knew this was possible and did actively not want to have to do anything with spirituality....

 

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I haven’t experienced non-duality but I have experienced ‘non-clinging mind’ for two entire days, thoughts flowing through without any grasping onto them, disentangled from them, and this was a very nice experience. So my sights are set lower, I look forward to this ungrasped thought state being permanent one day. 

 

If I had not experienced it directly, it would have meant so much hogwash to me. Non clinging mind, what a beautiful way to describe it. Those things feel like gifts to me. 

 

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Re: ego I wonder if self-interest is the problem and other interest the ‘self-realised’ state, as opposed to the neutrality or indifference that I equate with nonduality, at least as it is popularly presented. To fully identify with objects is one thing, but to develop a mind that cannot but care for the welfare of others because the gaze is not entangled with self (and concomitantly to develop the subtle agency to actually do something that can substantially improve another’s welfare) is something else, and I’m not convinced that nondual experience is a necessary part of of this sort of self-development. 
 

Btw this is not a moral stance or a path that I chose, rather it’s the path that I find myself on. 
 

 

Not sure I understand what you say here, english is not my native language and my cognitive facilities have deteriorated due to illness. Used to be a smart cookie, now I struggle to think clearly. This reading and posting takes all the cognitive energy of this day.

 

as I experience it, compassion  has somehow deepened, on the other hand I am much better at keeping boundaries, otherwise I would drown.

 

I do not read your ideas as a moral stance, I read it as Bindi and how she experiences and develops, that's all good, she walks the path as it is laid out before her.

 

 

indifference or neutrality is not what resonates with me, although...those first weeks were like that

[blue eyed snake]

10 hours ago, steve said:

Nondual realization is experiencing that first hand. It is unmistakable and a guaranteed view and life changer and it’s validating how similar the descriptions tend to be among laypeople and yogis going back millennia. It is also nothing more than a deeper, more open and empathetic perspective belonging to a living human being IMO.

 

yes, that is about how I would phrase it in my own language, the rest of your post is very helpful for me, thanks.

[ralis]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

By whom?

 

By linguists, Korzybski et al. Language is relative, not absolute. That is why this business of incessantly positing emptiness which has different meanings (see Oxford and Webster), and is always relative to the context, culture etc. Every English speaker that has taken Tibetan teachings parrot emptiness ad infinitum instead of conveying what it means. It has become a popular elitist buzz word.

[blue eyed snake]

10 hours ago, steve said:

Emptiness points to the absence, or non-interference of self in experience. Bindi and Blue Eyed Snake describe it in their experiences above. It is an important part of my practice. It is empty but clear and vital. Space is not empty, space is a metaphor for the non-grasping and unbounded aspect of the mind’s essence.

 

just to clarify.

 

Do you mean the word emptiness as you use it is meant to describe that state were the daily self is folded up real small?

[Apech]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 Words point at things, they are not things themselves only labels but there needs to be some shared experience for communication to occur.

 

I have nothing to prove, nor do I feel any desperation, just sharing my experience.

 

Sounds like it was a good move for you.

 

"steve-who-points-at-things"

Edited May 16, 2022 by Apech

[ralis]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 Words point at things, they are not things themselves only labels but there needs to be some shared experience for communication to occur.

 

I have nothing to prove, nor do I feel any desperation, just sharing my experience.

 

Sounds like it was a good move for you.

 

You just proved to yourself that language is relative. Language is understood differently depending on how one has been taught or is predisposed to a certain way of communicating and perceiving. E.g. my main mode of understanding is visual feeling, probably classified as synesthesia. When one is parroting emptiness as some absolute verbal experience I feel it in my entire being and that includes visually, not verbally! However, my interpretation is a universe away from what your are attempting to convey. 

 

If one reads Snellgrove's "The Hevajra Tantra" he clearly states that uneducated Tibetans that were introduced (circa 800 years) to Sanskrit Tantra's didn't have the education or background knowledge to understand Sanskrit. So what happened was a bastardized form of Sanskrit combined with Tibetan and was then introduced as a new form of spiritual language which seems to be linguistic imperialism. It is dominate even today in Tibetan Lama teachings even though it is full of errors.

 

 

 

 

 

[ralis]

20 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

"steve-who-points-at-things"

 

Thanks! That looks right to me.

[doc benway]

11 hours ago, ralis said:

Language is believed to be an absolute description of reality. 

 

5 hours ago, steve said:

 

By whom?

 

You said language is believed to be absolute. I asked by whom? I asked that because I don’t believe language to be absolute. That is clearly reflected in my posts. 

 

 

2 hours ago, ralis said:

 

By linguists, Korzybski et al. Language is relative, not absolute. That is why this business of incessantly positing emptiness which has different meanings (see Oxford and Webster), and is always relative to the context, culture etc. Every English speaker that has taken Tibetan teachings parrot emptiness ad infinitum instead of conveying what it means. It has become a popular elitist buzz word.

 

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

You just proved to yourself that language is relative.

 

Of course language is relative, I’ve never suggested otherwise, never even pointed otherwise. You seem to be arguing with yourself here. I guess that’s to be expected in a thread on nonduality…

 

[old3bob]

is it true Wal-Mart is giving out free reading glasses to anyone that has diligently read every post in this string?   Good for you folks, although directed Prana that could restore our eyes would supersede that...(btw I could use some of that to restore my very poor hearing which tends to happen when in my earlier days dumb teenage 'friends' blew up a cherry bomb next my head while I was sleeping during a camping trip together!)  

[ralis]

10 minutes ago, steve said:

 

 

You said language is believed to be absolute. I asked by whom? I asked that because I don’t believe language to be absolute. That is clearly reflected in my posts. 

 

 

 

 

Of course language is relative, I’ve never suggested otherwise, never even pointed otherwise. You seem to be arguing with yourself here. I guess that’s to be expected in a thread on nonduality…

 

 

I didn't state I believed language was absolute, but there are many that do. Arguing with myself? That is a really low accusation!