Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

Dwai divorces nondual experience from any underlying subtle energy, and since he’s one of the biggest promoters of non-dualism here, and since a lot of other self-professed nondualists seem to agree with a lot that he says, I can tend to take his statements as the nondual perspective. 
 

I personally think nondual perception is relatable to the subtle energy body. 
 

 

 

In the Kagyu Guru Yoga practice the union with the Root Lama - which is essentially the non-dual - is explained via the three kayas (plus a sum of all three which is the fourth kaya call svabhavikaya)

 

"The Svabhavakaya : This is great peace and is the nature of all phenomena. It is attained through the power of the dharmakaya, through realisation. The vajrayana calls this the body of great bliss (mahâsukhakâya) because its distinctive quality is supreme, unchanging bliss. Ârya Nâgârjuna has said : « I pay homage to that which is free from the activity of the three realms ; which is the equality of space ; which is the nature of all things ;… Praise to the Three Kâyas (Kayâtrayastotra), Toh 1123, Tengyur, bstod tshogs,ka,70b3."

 

« The svabhavakâya is the dharmakaya of the tathâgatas, because it is the locus of power over everything. » Asanga – Mâhâyanasamgraha, Toh 4048, Tengyur, sems tsam, ri, 37a4. The Tibetan adds the word « phenomena » to make « power over all phenomena »

 

The bliss referred to is not a joyful state but the complete liberation from suffering or complete freedom.

 

The practitioner works through his/her physical body, subtle body (lung, winds, prana) and mind ... and identifies them as not different to the nirmanakaya, samboghakaya and dharmakaya.  The alignment of the physical body is indeed part of the work as is the absorbtion of mind in the dharmakaya but the essential transmission involves the non-difference between the subtle body of the yogi and the samboghakaya of the Lama/Buddha.  All three together co-present  result in the svabhavakaya.

 

 

 

 

[Miffymog]

As for myself, I find Luke's posts the easiest ones to resonate with.

 

I keep coming back to Chan Master Hongzhi for inspiration and one of my favourite quotes of his is,

 

'Do not leave any traces, and inside and outside will merge into one totality.'

 

So I apply this in the world of duality i.e. in regards to relationships with other people. The idea being is if I continually smooth out my relationships with other people, I will continue to get closer to the source.

 

 

[doc benway]

59 minutes ago, Bindi said:

“Consciousness works precisely the way I said it does. You can believe what you want though.” ~ dwai 

 

 

 

This is a good example of why that disclaimer is important to keep in mind. 

They are just Dwai's thoughts on the matter, nothing more, nothing less.

When I read that the subtextual disclaimer looks something like...

... [according to my interpretation of Hindu doctrine and my personal experience].

All respect to Dwai as I think he has deep knowledge and personal experience, but I personally don't think the mind can understand precisely how consciousness works. That's just my current understanding and practice - doesn't mean it's truth.

A big part of this nonduality thing is learning to dis-identify with our thoughts, our beliefs, our feelings, and those of others.

We don't suppress, discard, or control them just recognize that we are something more (or less) than that.

That something can only be felt and intuited, not seen or heard.

We can point at it but can't show it to anyone.

 

I also add this disclaimer to what I read in classic texts, even when hearing my teacher and his teachers!

Sometimes I agree, sometimes I disagree, even with Dzongsar Khyentse RInpoche... both are simply thoughts. 

We can trust very deeply but we also need to understand that our life experience is unique and we may understand, experience, and interpret things differently, even from the masters. As I've mentioned earlier if I don't understand or disagree with something from what seems like a credible source, I accept the non-understanding or dis-agreement, allow it to be there and remain open to the possibility that I may develop clearer understanding at some point. No one knows or understands everything. 

This is why we need to listen, then reflect, then actualize in our own practice and compare back to what the teachings are saying. 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

“Consciousness works precisely the way I said it does. You can believe what you want though.” ~ dwai 

 

 

Now I’ve really “arrived”. I’m being quoted on the internet with a tilde. 
 

This is not a matter of opinion - it is empirically verifiable. You have to simply go through a simple exercise to realize this.  I have to disagree with Steve on this. There are techniques available in the Advaita Vedanta tradition which will clearly establish why consciousness is not anything that one can experience. 


 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by dwai

[old3bob]

Steve, that sounds like putting it on the shelf pending further review, thus of some potential.

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

Now I’ve really “arrived”. I’m being quoted on the internet with a tilde. 
 

This is not a matter of opinion - it is empirically verifiable. You have to simply go through a simple exercise to realize this. 


 

 

 

I had no idea how consciousness worked till I did this one simple exercise:

 

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I had no idea how consciousness worked till I did this one simple exercise:

 

You’re  a not-two  woke dude! 

[dwai]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

Which begs the question did you start with a realisation that you were not this body? Not as a taught concept but as an experience that shatters the belief that you are this one body in this one lifetime? How about all the other nondualists, have they shattered this first identification, or is body disidentification a learnt theory or a sub-realisation of the nondual realisation? 
 

My own intrinsic assumption was shattered when I was twelve. 
 

 

I didn’t start with any ideas or awareness about body, mind, etc. when I was little, usually it was about doing, being interrupted by pain or pleasure. Fall down, cry, get patched up, go outside and play. Eat some candy, enjoy, overeat, get a stomach ache, cry, play (or fall asleep). I think it pretty much sums up early childhood. School started, study, play, read books, paint, and so on.  

 

Body awareness didn’t start until I was a hormonal teenager (which is when the reproductive imperatives of the body kicked in). Which is what I think is the pivotal point of most human beings. 

 

I also didn’t have any “self-image” or any idealized sense of “body”. I still don’t. I never did. I find it fascinating that so many do. 

[doc benway]

21 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I had no idea how consciousness worked till I did this one simple exercise:

 

 

The making of a pointer sister

[awaken]

On 2022/5/17 at 2:12 PM, Bindi said:

 I think most ideas about primordial mind have come from projections about primordial mind, I don’t think anyone is actually operating from primordial mind, and in history maybe one or two ever have actually operated from primordial mind. So I’d say 'It's just illusion, man” is merely a projection from non-primordial minds. 
 

My top two for having actualised primordial mind are Jesus and the founder of neidan/waidan. In both systems the point of this life is to establish immortality of some sort or another:

2 Timothy 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

John 6:50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

 

John 8:51. Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

John 11:26  and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Immortality is the stated outcome of neidan as well, “Neidan, or internal alchemy (內丹术; 內丹術; nèidān shù), is an array of esoteric doctrines and physical, mental, and spiritual practices that Taoist initiates use to prolong life and create an immortal spiritual body that would survive after death (Skar and Pregadio 2000, 464).”

 

What to do once immortality is attained they don’t really say, maybe those instructions get handed to you once you’ve attained immortal status. 

 

 

獲得永生的不是那個在練的人，而是練出來的光體

 

那個光體到底下場如何，我也不知道，我正在努力想要把光體練得更進化一些

 

不過越來越困難

 

It is not the one who is practicing who gains immortality, but the light body that has been trained

What happened to that light body, I don't know, I'm trying to make the light body more evolved

But it's getting harder

[ralis]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

Dwai divorces nondual experience from any underlying subtle energy, and since he’s one of the biggest promoters of non-dualism here, and since a lot of other self-professed nondualists seem to agree with a lot that he says, I can tend to take his statements as the nondual perspective. 
 

I personally think nondual perception is relatable to the subtle energy body. 
 

 

 

Therefor, beyond non-dual, no subtle energy body exists?

[ralis]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Now I’ve really “arrived”. I’m being quoted on the internet with a tilde. 
 

This is not a matter of opinion - it is empirically verifiable. You have to simply go through a simple exercise to realize this.  I have to disagree with Steve on this. There are techniques available in the Advaita Vedanta tradition which will clearly establish why consciousness is not anything that one can experience. 


 

 

 

I have a problem with that statement. Why? How does one know consciousness if one is unable to experience it? Implies an a priori knowledge by a sentient being at some point in time. I suppose you are falling back on the no self philosophy as a foundation? 

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

I have a problem with that statement. Why? How does one know consciousness if one is unable to experience it? Implies an a priori knowledge by a sentient being at some point in time. I suppose you are falling back on the no self philosophy as a foundation? 

How does one know one has eyes? 

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

How does one know one has eyes? 

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

It wasn't a trick question. Does anyone need proof other than the act of seeing? Similarly with consciousness. Only thing is, it is mixed up with the mind and experiences for most of us. The acts of thinking, hearing, seeing, tasting, smelling, and feeling (subtle body falls under this category) are all that are needed to recognize consciousness. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by dwai

[liminal_luke]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I personally think nondual perception is relatable to the subtle energy body. 
 

 

Makes sense to me.  In particular, I think nondual perception is relatable to what is sometimes called the "central channel."  Which isn't to say that subtle energy development is nondual awareness.  Just that subtle energy development is one of those things that can support the flowering of nondual awareness.  Fertilizer is not a rose but if a rose is to bloom sometimes a little fertilization helps.  Never devalue the fertilizer.  

[ralis]

10 minutes ago, dwai said:

How does one know one has eyes? 

That evades my question and point. Answering a question with a question doesn’t bode well. 

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, ralis said:

That evades my question and point. Answering a question with a question doesn’t bode well. 

I did answer it in response to Apech's cross-eyed post

 

[blue eyed snake]

so many words, so many concepts

 

to me (this part of the total-being) it feels like the individual can be aware of the larger consciousness operating through him/her.

whether you class that as experience... that becomes hairsplitting to me.

[blue eyed snake]

hm, I say this because I've always been having the awareness of having something ' bigger' operating through me. As a very small child I simply thought of it as ' the light'.

that light became stronger when compassion awoke in the toddlers heart. 

 

this picture, found on the internet, conveys what I mean. That kid could have been me .

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by blue eyed snake

[old3bob]

14 hours ago, Lairg said:

My own experience of Existence (Reality) is that there is a spectrum from what humans call Spirit to what they call Matter.   The duality of spirit and matter occurs only from the anchor point of the observer's awareness.

 

The real duality seems to be Beingness and Existence.   During the Mahapralaya all Existence ceases and only Beingness is.

 

Then the question is:  do humans reside in Beingness or Existence?

 

How to test?

 

 

I'd say not only humans but all beings exist in existence, (aka manifestation) whereas in Supreme Being-ness there is only on of those.

[ralis]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

so many words, so many concepts

 

to me (this part of the total-being) it feels like the individual can be aware of the larger consciousness operating through him/her.

whether you class that as experience... that becomes hairsplitting to me.

That is why authentic transmissions are non-verbal. 

[natural]

33 minutes ago, ralis said:

That is why authentic transmissions are non-verbal. 

?

not oral versus non verbal?

Kinda like sex?

LOL?

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Makes sense to me.  In particular, I think nondual perception is relatable to what is sometimes called the "central channel."  Which isn't to say that subtle energy development is nondual awareness.  Just that subtle energy development is one of those things that can support the flowering of nondual awareness.  Fertilizer is not a rose but if a rose is to bloom sometimes a little fertilization helps.  Never devalue the fertilizer.  

………..edited

Edited May 18, 2022 by Bindi

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I agree, but this circles back to anandamaya kosha:

 

Anandmaya Kosh resides in Causal body (Karana Sharira). Causal body needs bliss or peace which it gets from Anandmaya Kosh…

Karana Sharira is the doorway to the higher consciousness. It is associated with the state of dreamless sleep and samadhi. It links individual consciousness with the collective consciousness.

 

https://thekundaliniyoga.org/vedanta/3_types_of_bodies_gross_body_sthula_sharira_subtle_astral_body_linga_sharira_causal_body_karana_sharira.aspx

 

Delta brainwaves are associated with these states.  Advanced meditators exhibit these deep brainwave states.