Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, ralis said:

@Bindi

 

This reminds me of what Irina Tweedie went through with her Sufi master. 

Can you give me a link to this? I’ve read an interview she gave but I’d like to see what you mean exactly. 

[Bindi]

42 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

Masculinity and rape, have nothing to do with one another.

 

The reason people might think so is for the simple reason, that, female perpetrators are never denounced.

 

I know there are female perpetrators but statistically they are rare. 

 

42 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

It's for the same reason we tend to associate domestic violence with violent men and never think of more passive forms of violence.

Women do it just as much as men.

 

It might be to do with the level of damage a man can inflict on a woman, women aren’t perfect, but they don’t tend to bruise and batter men, statistically speaking. 

 

42 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

Whether they get caught, is another question.

 

[dawn90]

6 minutes ago, Bindi said:

women aren’t perfect, but they don’t tend to bruise and batter men, statistically speaking. 

 

You're coming from the belief that physical violence is always worse than a well-

placed word.

 

8 minutes ago, Bindi said:

but statistically they are rare. 

 

That's exactly what people used to say about incest and pedophilia.

And how did that turn out.

 

Turns out it's a huge problem.

By the way I'm not attacking women, I love women.

But it would be foolish to think that they're any less capable than men of inflicting damage. Let's not be naive, or idealise them. They're human. And therefore more than capable.

Besides, statistics only make sense if people are willing to denounce them. It's still an unknown, in my opinion.

Men have been getting a bad rap because you can't call the police for someone throwing a dirty word at you; no matter how much it hurt you.

 

So; the whole thing is skewed.

But; you might see it differently.

[ralis]

27 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Can you give me a link to this? I’ve read an interview she gave but I’d like to see what you mean exactly. 

I read both books back in the late 80’s/early 90’s. I do recall that her teacher put what she called divine fire love in her physical heart for purification purposes. She wrote about pain and immense suffering that her teacher demanded she open up to as a path to non attachment, divine love. When she asked her teacher for permission to take heart medication he would not allow it. 
 

I went through a similar event the likes of which I will never forget. Hot fire in my physical heart for a few minutes, I looked gray and washed out and almost died. My physical body was literally on fire for two years until the heat diminished and one person I knew at the time could feel the heat at a distance of 5’ away. The reason for my intense suffering was for heart purification or so they claimed. The spiritual quest can and will cause physical and emotional problems for anyone at any time. Not all wine, bliss and roses. 
 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Irina-Tweedie/e/B001KCQV5A/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1

 

[ralis]

48 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

 

You're coming from the belief that physical violence is always worse than a well-

placed word.

 

 

That's exactly what people used to say about incest and pedophilia.

And how did that turn out.

 

Turns out it's a huge problem.

By the way I'm not attacking women, I love women.

But it would be foolish to think that they're any less capable than men of inflicting damage. Let's not be naive, or idealise them. They're human. And therefore more than capable.

Besides, statistics only make sense if people are willing to denounce them. It's still an unknown, in my opinion.

Men have been getting a bad rap because you can't call the police for someone throwing a dirty word at you; no matter how much it hurt you.

 

So; the whole thing is skewed.

But; you might see it differently.

Here in the US there are right wing Republican women that enforce the rules of the patriarchy. Usually have little choice, given they are usually married to abusive men or were raised in such an environment. Further, religion ideology usually holds sway as in can in any tradition, even non-dualism. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by ralis

[mrpasserby]

@ralis "I went through a similar event the likes of which I will never forget."

I am glade that you are threw that faze, in my ilk some form of that type of purification is expected.

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

@ralis "I went through a similar event the likes of which I will never forget."

I am glade that you are threw that faze, in my ilk some form of that type of purification is expected.

‘What group are you involved with? Sufi?

[Bindi]

23 minutes ago, ralis said:

I read both books back in the late 80’s/early 90’s. I do recall that her teacher put what she called divine fire love in her physical heart for purification purposes. She wrote about pain and immense suffering that her teacher demanded she open up to as a path to non attachment, divine love. When she asked her teacher for permission to take heart medication he would not allow it. 
 

I went through a similar event the likes of which I will never forget. Hot fire in my physical heart for a few minutes, I looked gray and washed out and almost died. My physical body was literally on fire for two years until the heat diminished and one person I knew at the time could feel the heat at a distance of 5’ away. The reason for my intense suffering was for heart purification or so they claimed. The spiritual quest can and will cause physical and emotional problems for anyone at any time. Not all wine, bliss and roses. 
 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Irina-Tweedie/e/B001KCQV5A/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1

 

Re the spiritual quest causing problems and suffering, I do completely agree, if you don’t go through some then the heart isn’t being cleared. I like to think I cleared my heart in a slow way so less acute suffering, but plenty of suffering nonetheless. Maybe there’s more to come, ouch  

[dawn90]

Try this meditation for the heart.

 

I've been working this week with my subtle body and I found that it was instrinsically linked with my arms and legs.

I've been working the fingers.

And the toes.

Which are like the fingers but at the bottom.

And it's like letting the subtle body progressively in.

 

Highly recomend it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D-RjlJ6vWw

[ralis]

49 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Re the spiritual quest causing problems and suffering, I do completely agree, if you don’t go through some then the heart isn’t being cleared. I like to think I cleared my heart in a slow way so less acute suffering, but plenty of suffering nonetheless. Maybe there’s more to come, ouch  

 

"More to come." I always wonder about that. I forgot to mention that I had really bad heart arrhythmia for years until it finally calmed down. EKG didn't find any underlying problem. Hope you don't need to go through any more heart clearing!

[mrpasserby]

@ralis I would really like to say what, group that I belong to. I should not say anything, but after decades, of keeping quiet, while most everyone else is free to quote this and that group I sometimes do a Freidan slip and mention my ilk. After reading your strong posts, I would be surprised if a variety of groups aren't already looking to give you a tap on the shoulder.

[ralis]

12 minutes ago, mrpasserby said:

@ralis I would really like to say what, group that I belong to. I should not say anything, but after decades, of keeping quiet, while most everyone else is free to quote this and that group I sometimes do a Freidan slip and mention my ilk. After reading your strong posts, I would be surprised if a variety of groups aren't already looking to give you a tap on the shoulder.

A tap on the shoulder from whom?

[mrpasserby]

@Bindi 'Re the spiritual quest causing problems and suffering, I do completely agree, if you don’t go through some then the heart isn’t being cleared. I like to think I cleared my heart in a slow way so less acute suffering, but plenty of suffering nonetheless. Maybe there’s more to come' 

That is wonderful news that you found a slow and not so painful way, and yes, I know that there are other ways to clear the heart some less painful then others.

 

[mrpasserby]

@ralis "A tap on the shoulder from whom?"

That was meant to be a complement, not a statement of fact.

[Bindi]

"There must be a great battle going on inwardly all the time until the Self is realized. This battle is symbolically spoken of in scriptural writings as the fight between God and Satan." - Ramana Maharshi

 

Hang on, this is what I believe, so dualistic -  Please explain…

"No one succeeds without effort. Mind control is not one's birthright. The successful few owe their success to their perseverance." - Ramana Maharshi

 

Effort? Successful few??? Isn’t it no effort, and success for every second person? 
 

"Intense effort is necessary until the I-thought disappears completely in the Heart [Self] and all the vasanas [egoistic tendencies] and samskaras [mental impressions and psychological imprints] are fried and do not revive again." - Ramana Maharshi

 

Can we set the bar by this version of nonduality, please please please, unless what Ramana is talking about is something beyond nondualiity, like Self realisation. 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Bindi

[Apech]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I think there is a lot of difference between ‘enlightened’ and creating an ‘immortal body’, though I do agree there is nothing more beneficial to oneself and others than doing this. 

 

Yes there is - I was just trying to be inclusive depending on how people defined their goal.

 

Quote

 

BHIKKHU BODHI on morality:

 

Crazy wisdom was a term created by Trungpa - in part at least to justify some of his more outlandish behaviour.  There were indeed in medieval India Mahasiddhas who lived on the fringes of society, sometimes with travelling players or with prostitutes, who would do transgressive behaviour like eating meat, drinking alcohol, disrespecting social norms and castes, having sex and so on from which he got this model.  But then it got mixed up with post modern moral relativism in 1960/70's America and degenerated.  Other Lamas which upheld this kind of nonsense like Sogyal Rinpoche ended up in disgrace.

 

Quote

Some sort of moral code has to exist before we ourselves become intrinsically moral or there’d be mayhem. I think any system that hasn’t gone far enough to get in touch with intrinsic morality is half-baked and dangerous, and this is one of the reasons why I dislike ‘nonduality’ as the end result. 
 

 

 

As ever through this thread whatever it is that you are describing as nonduality isn't nonduality it is some kind of debased thing which has crept in through New Age Advaita and crummy Western Buddhism which is used to veil very poor understanding, emotional weakness and indulgence and foist it on the unsuspecting public.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Apech

[silent thunder]

The Sage is in the world, but not of it. 

Sage sees all are straw dogs.  Passing, ephemeral, transient.

 

Though the Sage engages fully in the world, yet is not drawn into the passings of straw.  A Sage, grounded within the center that is everywhere and no where passes through and among the world without being drawn into the game of it.  Aware of 'the rules' the game is played and engaged without mis-identifying one's true nature with the board and pieces, so to speak.

 

Not taking the universe personally is a remarkably liberating experience.

 

Though Sage moves freely through the whole world, she never leaves the center.

 

To move in, among and through the world, without being hooked, or anchored or bound to its processing seems to speak to our overall topic and of breaking the cycle of samsaric illusion and karmic extendency/dependency through awareness. 

 

Chains of Iron and Chains of Gold, all chains bind and hold. 

 

'Bad' action, 'High' merit... all part of the ephemeral process of unfolding karmic cause and effect and thus, all bind, if one identifies with such.  i am reminded of a conversation at a retreat among two others, regarding a woman's confusion at her teacher's refusal to take up an offer to be part of building a school/hospital. 

     "This project is so full of merit!" She declared.  "Why would he refuse that option?"

     "Perhaps he no longer wishes to bind actions to the cycle?" another replied.  "All actions bind.  Even meritorious action binds one to the wheel as surely as evil."

 

This notion of morality driven liberation has fallen away for me (though i have not rescinded acting on my impulses, which heavily favor my own current notions of good).  Morality is experienced now as utterly changeable; local awareness experiences this undeniably in moments of great expansion of awareness.  Morality is revealed as a societally driven story and expresses as wholly malleable from generation to generation, not to mention from society to society. 

 

Malleable Morality no longer seems no more conducive to awakening.  Non-binding presence is experienced as liberating. 

 

Sage moves freely always occupying center, unbound and ufettered.  Seeing all as straw dogs. 

 

Like rain and sunshine, always falling without distinction, on the murderer and the medic alike; the Sage moves among the world.

Edited May 21, 2022 by silent thunder

[dawn90]

14 hours ago, ralis said:

Here in the US there are right wing Republican women that enforce the rules of the patriarchy. Usually have little choice, given they are usually married to abusive men or were raised in such an environment. Further, religion ideology usually holds sway as in can in any tradition, even non-dualism. 

 

Well, if you're speaking from experience, I'm sorry.

 

But what I was getting at. Was that you can find just as many cases where women impose their law - and it's not reported.

Precisely because their modus operandi doesn't involve physical violence.

So there's an unknown - that's what I was getting at - not dismissing the cases of abusive men.

But to idealize women. That's wrong.

 

Human beings are just as capable, whichever side of the aisle they come from.

That's all.

 

I sense. Strongly.

A deep wound in this thread when it comes to abusive men.

There seems to be some kind of resentment and perhaps underlying hatred and misundertandign towards men.

In my opinion, this comes from a lack of understanding of how an archetypical male loves. And I see this.

 

It's tied a lot to morality because that's a typical male way of caring for somebody.

You want that person to be well - but not in the sense of just being lifted.

Which is hard to convey when you oppose it to the female way of showing love which is more about nurturing.

Being lifted.

Christianity cares about you in the type of person you become.

It doesn't lift you whenever you want to be lifted; it lifts you where you need to be lifted, where you must.

See the difference?

So if you have too much of that you get resentment.

Mothers have to act as a counterbalance and if you get too much of one or the other you end up imbalanced - perhaps even as a fanatical dualist or non-dualist.

I believe that is the expression of that.

My view is that non-duality is inside duality, as good and bad is the ultimate duality in my opinion.

The father giving you the correct shape.

And the mother earth filling it - with her love.

But both of these are loving, just in completely different ways.

I see; the love of the father as one that is appreciated after a long life and you get it.

Whereas the mother's love, is more instantaneous.

Like Penny singing soft kitty to your ear and you feel soothed.

 

Lets get it straight: all of us need a father and a mother to be present even if at least in our hearts to know the full extent of what love is.

 

We just can't do without.

That's my take on it.

 

 

 

 

Room of spirit, and time

Edited May 21, 2022 by dawn90

[ralis]

31 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

 

Well, if you're speaking from experience, I'm sorry.

 

But what I was getting at. Was that you can find just as many cases where women impose their law - and it's not reported.

Precisely because their modus operandi doesn't involve physical violence.

So there's an unknown - that's what I was getting at - not dismissing the cases of abusive men.

But to idealize women. That's wrong.

 

Human beings are just as capable, whichever side of the aisle they come from.

That's all.

 

I sense. Strongly.

A deep wound in this thread when it comes to abusive men.

There seems to be some kind of resentment and perhaps underlying hatred and misundertandign towards men.

In my opinion, this comes from a lack of understanding of how an archetypical male loves. And I see this.

 

It's tied a lot to morality because that's a typical male way of caring for somebody.

You want that person to be well - but not in the sense of just being lifted.

Which is hard to convey when you oppose it to the female way of showing love which is more about nurturing.

Being lifted.

Christianity cares about you in the type of person you become.

It doesn't lift you whenever you want to be lifted; it lifts you where you need to be lifted, where you must.

See the difference?

So if you have too much of that you get resentment.

Mothers have to act as a counterbalance and if you get too much of one or the other you end up imbalanced - perhaps even as a fanatical dualist or non-dualist.

I believe that is the expression of that.

My view is that non-duality is inside duality, as good and bad is the ultimate duality in my opinion.

The father giving you the correct shape.

And the mother earth filling it - with her love.

But both of these are loving, just in completely different ways.

I see; the love of the father as one that is appreciated after a long life and you get it.

Whereas the mother's love, is more instantaneous.

Like Penny singing soft kitty to your ear and you feel soothed.

 

Lets get it straight: all of us need a father and a mother to be present even if at least in our hearts to know the full extent of what love is.

 

We just can't do without.

That's my take on it.

 

 

 

 

Room of spirit, and time

 

Are you positing from a Judeo Christian perspective? 

 

Male abusiveness is a way of caring for someone? Is that what you are stating? 

Edited May 21, 2022 by ralis

[dawn90]

29 minutes ago, ralis said:

Male abusiveness is a way of caring for someone? Is that what you are stating? 

 

I had to re-read a bit what I just said because I couldn't understand where you were coming from, but, what I meant was that, motherly love was more immediate nurturing, and being uplifted no matter what.

All of this taking caricatures just to make it understandable.

But that in opposition to that: male nurturing was more about nurturing your character - which had a slow burn to it. I said that aftewards I believe.

Of course. At times: a male abuser can use that as an excuse just to hurt somebody.

Different disguises, by different abusers.

Women can use the nurturing facade to keep hold of a child, and not let him go.

You can nurture somebody - make them feel fantastic - but what you're actually doing is breaking their character to control them - different ways to control - different ways to break somebody - whether it be up. Or down.

But ultimately you drive them down.

 

PS: the second video in my previous post explains how I see it.

Edited May 21, 2022 by dawn90

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Yes there is - I was just trying to be inclusive depending on how people defined their goal.

 

 

Crazy wisdom was a term created by Trungpa - in part at least to justify some of his more outlandish behaviour.  There were indeed in medieval India Mahasiddhas who lived on the fringes of society, sometimes with travelling players or with prostitutes, who would do transgressive behaviour like eating meat, drinking alcohol, disrespecting social norms and castes, having sex and so on from which he got this model.  But then it got mixed up with post modern moral relativism in 1960/70's America and degenerated.  Other Lamas which upheld this kind of nonsense like Sogyal Rinpoche ended up in disgrace.

 

 

As ever through this thread whatever it is that you are describing as nonduality isn't nonduality it is some kind of debased thing which has crept in through New Age Advaita and crummy Western Buddhism which is used to veil very poor understanding, emotional weakness and indulgence and foist it on the unsuspecting public.

 

 

 

"Crazy wisdom" as described above also sounds like the "left hand path" which has probably been around for many thousands of years, including long before most of recorded history, thus not only in more recent times (and is in no way limited to your new age, Indian or Buddhist examples above) although and it does exist in various and recent forms.  (btw one could progress very far in a middle or right hand way only to fall or be turned along left hand lines)

Edited May 21, 2022 by old3bob

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

The Sage is in the world, but not of it. 

Sage sees all are straw dogs.  Passing, ephemeral, transient.

 

Though the Sage engages fully in the world, yet is not drawn into the passings of straw.  A Sage, grounded within the center that is everywhere and no where passes through and among the world without being drawn into the game of it.  Aware of 'the rules' the game is played and engaged without mis-identifying one's true nature with the board and pieces, so to speak.

 

Not taking the universe personally is a remarkably liberating experience.

 

Though Sage moves freely through the whole world, she never leaves the center.

 

To move in, among and through the world, without being hooked, or anchored or bound to its processing seems to speak to our overall topic and of breaking the cycle of samsaric illusion and karmic extendency/dependency through awareness. 

 

Chains of Iron and Chains of Gold, all chains bind and hold. 

 

'Bad' action, 'High' merit... all part of the ephemeral process of unfolding karmic cause and effect and thus, all bind, if one identifies with such.  i am reminded of a conversation at a retreat among two others, regarding a woman's confusion at her teacher's refusal to take up an offer to be part of building a school/hospital. 

     "This project is so full of merit!" She declared.  "Why would he refuse that option?"

     "Perhaps he no longer wishes to bind actions to the cycle?" another replied.  "All actions bind.  Even meritorious action binds one to the wheel as surely as evil."

 

This notion of morality driven liberation has fallen away for me (though i have not rescinded acting on my impulses, which heavily favor my own current notions of good).  Morality is experienced now as utterly changeable; local awareness experiences this undeniably in moments of great expansion of awareness.  Morality is revealed as a societally driven story and expresses as wholly malleable from generation to generation, not to mention from society to society. 

 

Malleable Morality no longer seems no more conducive to awakening.  Non-binding presence is experienced as liberating. 

 

Sage moves freely always occupying center, unbound and ufettered.  Seeing all as straw dogs. 

 

Like rain and sunshine, always falling without distinction, on the murderer and the medic alike; the Sage moves among the world.

 

I'd bring up the context that a true Sage sees very far beyond a potentially negative connotation of "straw dogs" that may occur,  thus sees the Tao in all beings or the ten thousand,  "Hence the Sage is  always good at saving men" (or mankind and all life for that matter) and is "kind to the kind and also kind to to the unkind"

Edited May 21, 2022 by old3bob

[ralis]

9 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

"Crazy wisdom" as described above also sounds like the "left hand path" which has probably been around for many thousands of years, including long before most of recorded history, thus not only in more recent times (and is in no way limited to your new age, Indian or Buddhist examples above) although and it does exist in various and recent forms.  (btw one could progress very far in a middle or right hand way only to fall or be turned along such lines)

 

Trungpa's crazy wisdom is the Western cowboy behavior contrasted from the conservative rule oriented monastic environment he was raised in. 

[old3bob]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

 

Trungpa's crazy wisdom is the Western cowboy behavior contrasted from the conservative rule oriented monastic environment he was raised in. 

 

breaking dharma can go by many names, and various forms of cowboys can also go by it or break it.

[ralis]

34 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

 

I had to re-read a bit what I just said because I couldn't understand where you were coming from, but, what I meant was that, motherly love was more immediate nurturing, and being uplifted no matter what.

All of this taking caricatures just to make it understandable.

But that in opposition to that: male nurturing was more about nurturing your character - which had a slow burn to it. I said that aftewards I believe.

Of course. At times: a male abuser can use that as an excuse just to hurt somebody.

Different disguises, by different abusers.

Women can use the nurturing facade to keep hold of a child, and not let him go.

You can nurture somebody - make them feel fantastic - but what you're actually doing is breaking their character to control them - different ways to control - different ways to break somebody - whether it be up. Or down.

But ultimately you drive them down.

 

PS: the second video in my previous post explains how I see it.

 

 

I still don't get where you are coming from given the horrific abuses by the patriarchy over thousands of years. Slaughter to the max by male politicians, Catholic Church priests, Islam etc. All brought to you by the male patriarchy with the main theme of dominance over women.

Edited May 21, 2022 by ralis