Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[S:C]

19 hours ago, dawn90 said:

You can nurture somebody - make them feel fantastic - but what you're actually doing is breaking their character to control them - different ways to control - different ways to break somebody - whether it be up. Or down.

But ultimately you drive them down.

Can you please elaborate what you mean by this? Giving an example? Why is the one being nurtured driven down? ?

Understanding this is not easy, the video doesn't help me here, but an example might!

 

On 20.5.2022 at 10:34 PM, steve said:

the word that we generally translate as wisdom is yeshé. "Ye" means 'primordial' or 'from the beginning.' "Shé" means 'to know' or 'consciousness.'

Interesting, I thought it was only a womans name.

 

On 16.5.2022 at 9:39 PM, stirling said:

What sort of patterns do you mean?

This is difficult to answer.

Patterns and themes are concepts in physics - in the physical way of perceiving and approaching the world (Acoustics, Atomics, Electromagnetism, Mechanics, Optics, Thermodynamics...). What patterns and themes are there in work for the non-physical subtle?

In a way we perceive the world through these concepts.

Physics doesn't lie. Ohms law doesn't lie. Gravity doesn't lie.

If it seems to lie, it just means your theory of the reality is here incomplete or something else in the equation was influenced unnoticed. So maybe it isn't unphysical rules per se, but just physical rules that haven't been as neatly discovered and been put in a theory as the others yet, as they are maybe to subtle or to seldom.

 

At some points those 'rules' seem to collide, like for example, when some meditators (often in occurance with breath exercises) have troubles to regulate their body temperature, or others talking about 'heart attack like effects' on the body (arrhytmics, torsade de points, PEA - something that I'd like to call 'energetics' here... hence dual and non dual coming together here maybe) that are usually not seen on an ECG (as it's not the standard emergency case as the practioner seems do be able to deal with it themselves ? ), and the talk of the three burners (even for non meditators) inside etc. etc.

 

So rules of physics seem to collide with well... something else. That's the point where all the Qi talk comes into place and lots of modells (koshas, skandhas,manas etc.) that try to approach 'nondual reality'. But it seems to be rather unpredictable if you're not clairvoyant or else or just as words and concepts that imho fail to portray it adequatly compared to perception.

So patterns like physics has them for the physical, do these also exist in the non-physical / subtle ?

>>Edit: admittedly used a very wide notion of the term 'nondual' here, - here it reads as that which is not understood by physics, - and not necessarily something necessarily related to gnosis and its effects etc. sorry.

 

 

19 hours ago, old3bob said:

"left hand path" which has probably been around

Can you please explain on which interpretation you base your comprehension of this expression?

Sort of there's a ringing in my ears, that even in Buddhism there are some groups, Mahayana School among others, I believe, - where it is alright to lie, - (maybe ?) under the circumstance that a lie is best for everyone surrounded. But you probably are referring to something else?

>>Edit: Would you be so kind as to explain, what exactly you mean by this, please? There's an awful lot on the interwebs, but very different and I'd like to know what exactly you were referring to @old3bob, thanks!

Edited May 22, 2022 by schroedingerscat
admittedly vague use of words

[ralis]

10 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

Can you please elaborate what you mean by this? Giving an example? Why is the one being nurtured driven down? Understanding this is not easy, the video doesn't help me here, but an example might!

 

Interesting, I thought it was only a womans name.

 

This is difficult to answer.

Patterns and themes are concepts in physics - in the physical way of perceiving and approaching the world (Acoustics, Atomics, Electromagnetism, Mechanics, Optics, Thermodynamics...). What patterns and themes are there in work for the non-physical subtle?

In a way we perceive the world through these concepts.

Physics doesn't lie. Ohms law doesn't lie. Gravity doesn't lie.

If it seems to lie, it just means your theory of the reality is here incomplete or something else in the equation was influenced unnoticed. So maybe it isn't unphysical rules per se, but just physical rules that haven't been as neatly discovered and been put in a theory as the others yet, as they are maybe to subtle or to seldom.

 

At some points those 'rules' seem to collide, like for example, when some meditators (often in occurance with breath exercises) have troubles to regulate their body temperature, or others talking about 'heart attack like effects' on the body (arrhytmics, torsade de points, PEA - something that I'd like to call 'energetics' here... hence dual and non dual coming together here maybe) that are usually not seen on an ECG (as it's not the standard emergency case as the practioner seems do be able to deal with it themselves ? ), and the talk of the three burners (even for non meditators) inside etc. etc.

 

So rules of physics seem to collide with well... something else. That's the point where all the Qi talk comes into place and lots of modells (koshas, skandhas,manas etc.) that try to approach 'nondual reality'. But it seems to be rather unpredictable if you're not clairvoyant or else or just as words and concepts that imho fail to portray it adequatly compared to perception.

So patterns like physics has them for the physical, do these also exist in the non-physical / subtle ?

 

Can you please explain on which interpretation you base your comprehension of this expression?

Sort of there's a ringing in my ears, that even in Buddhism there are some groups, Mahayana School among others, I believe, - where it is alright to lie, - (maybe ?) under the circumstance that a lie is best for everyone surrounded. But you probably are referring to something else?

 

Thanks for putting some science into the equation here.

 

Dr. Valerie Hunt professor at UCLA conducted quite of bit of measurements for what she termed the "human energy field." What she found was a complex field of coherent/incoherent EM fields. Variables such as the environment, emotion, health, etc. will have an effect on a complex dynamic "human energy field." Her work is far too much to discuss here, but Dr. Hunt was a traditional scientist in neurophysiology. She started this work from a students urging, by accident. 

[old3bob]

47 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

 

....Can you please explain on which interpretation you base your comprehension of this expression?

Sort of there's a ringing in my ears, that even in Buddhism there are some groups, Mahayana School among others, I believe, - where it is alright to lie, - (maybe ?) under the circumstance that a lie is best for everyone surrounded. But you probably are referring to something else?

 

yes a different context than that...btw, I'm not sure about the usage you mean which sounds like it could turn into a slippery slope.

Edited May 21, 2022 by old3bob

[natural]

11 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

yes a different context than that...btw, I'm not sure about the usage you mean which sounds like it could turn into a slippery slope.

 

I am waxing my skies, rather late in the season mind you, we call it the season of slippery slopes hereabouts. LOL

[old3bob]

22 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

yes a different context than that...btw, I'm not sure about the usage you mean which sounds like it could turn into a slippery slope.

 

does anyone know of when a lie can not become at least problematic?   Whereas silence on a problem could be far less so and more appropriate.

[natural]

an insistent partner, does this make me look fat?

as a primary policy I try to avoid lies. 

but for the sake of peace, one may slip out from time to time.

lol

Edited May 21, 2022 by natural
to add : And an awareness of the situation

[ralis]

@schroedingerscat

 

I have a few things to add that you may want to weight in on, but need to go to the store and visit one clients house.

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, ralis said:

 

Thanks for putting some science into the equation here.

 

Dr. Valerie Hunt professor at UCLA conducted quite of bit of measurements for what she termed the "human energy field." What she found was a complex field of coherent/incoherent EM fields. Variables such as the environment, emotion, health, etc. will have an effect on a complex dynamic "human energy field." Her work is far too much to discuss here, but Dr. Hunt was a traditional scientist in neurophysiology. She started this work from a students urging, by accident. 

I looked her up and found a very interesting article, Health on the Edge, well worth reading, I’ve posted one quote below. 

 

Quote

as soon as the field becomes anti-coherent things don’t flow. And the primary organizer of all of this is human emotion. It is the apex. When we shift human emotion, we can do amazing things with the electromagnetic field.

 

https://healthontheedge.wordpress.com/2012/01/28/the-human-energy-field-an-interview-with-valerie-v-hunt-ph-d/

 

[doc benway]

From my fav film director:

 

THE VIBRATION

"If my energy doesn't wake you up, I'm not for you.

If my spirit doesn't inspire you, don't force the connection.

If my thought doesn't make you think deeper, it's no point in keeping me in mind.

If my passion doesn't move you, then you better change direction.

If my presence doesn't help you evolve, my absence certainly will.

If my love doesn't open your heart permanently, another love will.

Go and find what vibrates your being, don't even stop to look behind you.

One of the greatest acts of love is letting go.

The vibration doesn't lie.

Trust your process. "

Alexander Jodorowsky

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I looked her up and found a very interesting article, Health on the Edge, well worth reading, I’ve posted one quote below. 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting it. I had one very long conversation with her by phone a few years before she passed on. I learned a lot about her work with scalar waves that she researched for healing etc. Dr. Hunt was a brilliant educator.

[Bindi]

Another quote from the same article:

 

Quote

Spiritual healing is another area I will be researching in more detail. It’s been stated that if you pray over a person, they tend to get better. This is an oversimplification. It depends on who prays and from what level, or frequency, they pray. I’ve recorded people who pray and pray and pray, but they are praying from such a low level that nothing happens. They don’t have the amplitude and the necessary frequency to bring in the spiritual healing energy, which is unconditional love. Unconditional love is coherency with great power. If you don’t have coherency, you can talk about unconditional love, but you don’t really know what it is.

 

This could be the basis of the ‘moral’ attainment that I feel is missing in nondual awakening, going beyond impartiality, maybe evidence that someone has authentically arrived at the highest possible expression of humanness. 

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Another quote from the same article:

 

 

This could be the basis of the ‘moral’ attainment that I feel is missing in nondual awakening, going beyond impartiality, maybe evidence that someone has authentically arrived at the highest possible expression of humanness. 

 

Nothing is missing from nondual awakening, other than perhaps our connecting with it. There is no greater moral compass than knowing that one’s own body is all sentient and non sentient beings. When there is that awakening of unconditional love there is no doubt or hesitation regarding morality. That’s my experience, fwiw.

[Mark Foote]

Fascinating, captains.

 

Quote

And the reason they have cancer is because the field is a very high, very weak field. They’re sweet, dear, lovable people. That’s their emotional orientation. They aren’t aggressive, and they don’t have lower frequencies which have to do with tissue vitality. Without the tissue vitality, the cell becomes cancerous. But the difficulty is that some of these people would almost rather die than to give in to the very intense, angry, and hostile emotions which they have.

 

Would you say that those emotions are basically suppressed?

Yes, they are suppressed as their consciousness soars, staying in what they perceive to be the more positive emotions. I have measured the fields of people with cancer many, many times, and it’s always the same pattern. I’ve never, ever seen a cancer person whose field had the full spectrum of electromagnetic energy, from its lowest to its highest. Never, ever.

 

Are you saying that cancer is a passive/aggressive disease in the sense of the person’s emotional make-up?

I wouldn’t say passive/aggressive. I would say it’s passive, not aggressive.

 

(from the interview with Valerie Hunt linked by Ralis)

[Bindi]

I’ve posted about a room in chaos a few times, and I’ve never really known how to understand that metaphor fully, but coherent and incoherent EM fields is a good candidate. I’ve always associated the room in chaos with Yin energies, and I’ve always understood that it has to be entered into by consciousness and put into order by standing back from it, though most importantly It has to be found and entered first before standing back from it (otherwise it would be spiritual bypassing). 
 

This is the post that describes that room in chaos, which I have previously thought most likely refers to the right hemisphere of the brain, and what I am thinking today, is likely to refer to the incoherent frequencies typical of most of humanity. 
 

I suspect the other room, the linear pattern, might be intention which has to face in the right direction? 
 

Anyway, EM fields seem like quite a good way to consider how emotions and energy and intention etc might interact. 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

Nothing is missing from nondual awakening, other than perhaps our connecting with it. There is no greater moral compass than knowing that one’s own body is all sentient and non sentient beings. When there is that awakening of unconditional love there is no doubt or hesitation regarding morality. That’s my experience, fwiw.

Ken Wilber on nonduality and moral stages:

 

Vijay: During these sessions, you discuss two relatively independent interior developmental aspects: states and stages of consciousness.  So a Zen master could train and develop in states of consciousness – ultimately becoming ‘enlightened’ – and yet may simultaneously view reality from a low developmental stage because their awakening doesn’t guarantee stage development, e.g. he’s enlightened (non-dual state) and homophobic (mythic-traditional stage). Something I often think about is that while it may be a huge achievement to recognise the true nature of reality, if you had to choose one aspect to be developed, surely pushing consciousness through to higher stages would be more important than states? I understand that having them both developed is ideal, but I would love to hear your take on this.

 

Ken:  This is definitely a head-scratcher.  Both of them have so many incredibly important advantages, it’s really hard to choose one.  Stages are how we grow up; states are how we wake up.  And as important as states (and the whole notion of Awakening or Enlightenment) is, the example you bring up is crucial—you can move through states, all the way to ultimate Nonduality, and still be stuck in some fairly low stages.  We all know mystics that are incredibly deep and yet also very narrow-minded.  Studies into stages of moral development show that they move from egocentric (what’s right is what I say is right) to ethnocentric (what’s right is what my group, tribe, nation says is right) to worldcentric (what’s right is what is fair for all people, regardless of race, color, sex, or creed), to kosmocentric (including all sentient beings).  You can be at any of those stages and nonetheless develop a oneness with everything in the world at that stage.  But if that stage is, say, mythic-literal, it has an ethnocentric orientation (“the chosen peoples”), and if you’re not one of the chosen group, you are destined for hell—and in some cases, it’s even okay to kill “nonbelievers,” because they’re heathens without a soul.  Killing infidels is a career promotion for mythic fundamentalists.  Jihad or “holy war” becomes one’s major duty.  Mystical experiences of oneness only deepen the feeling of the stage you’re at.  And this, of course, is a disaster.  This is why, with all the spiritual experiences that ancient traditional cultures had, they also had—with virtually no exceptions—slavery, torture, were mostly patriarchal and sexist and xenophobic.   People have often wondered why all the old-time “really religious” cultures were also some of the most utterly barbaric.  It’s because of having access to some very high states but not very high stages (hence the caste system, slavery, sexism, etc.).

 

https://awaken.com/2016/11/the-future-of-spirituality-an-interview-with-ken-wilber/

Edited May 22, 2022 by Bindi

[ralis]

14 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Ken Wilber on nonduality and moral stages:

 

Vijay: During these sessions, you discuss two relatively independent interior developmental aspects: states and stages of consciousness.  So a Zen master could train and develop in states of consciousness – ultimately becoming ‘enlightened’ – and yet may simultaneously view reality from a low developmental stage because their awakening doesn’t guarantee stage development, e.g. he’s enlightened (non-dual state) and homophobic (mythic-traditional stage). Something I often think about is that while it may be a huge achievement to recognise the true nature of reality, if you had to choose one aspect to be developed, surely pushing consciousness through to higher stages would be more important than states? I understand that having them both developed is ideal, but I would love to hear your take on this.

 

Ken:  This is definitely a head-scratcher.  Both of them have so many incredibly important advantages, it’s really hard to choose one.  Stages are how we grow up; states are how we wake up.  And as important as states (and the whole notion of Awakening or Enlightenment) is, the example you bring up is crucial—you can move through states, all the way to ultimate Nonduality, and still be stuck in some fairly low stages.  We all know mystics that are incredibly deep and yet also very narrow-minded.  Studies into stages of moral development show that they move from egocentric (what’s right is what I say is right) to ethnocentric (what’s right is what my group, tribe, nation says is right) to worldcentric (what’s right is what is fair for all people, regardless of race, color, sex, or creed), to kosmocentric (including all sentient beings).  You can be at any of those stages and nonetheless develop a oneness with everything in the world at that stage.  But if that stage is, say, mythic-literal, it has an ethnocentric orientation (“the chosen peoples”), and if you’re not one of the chosen group, you are destined for hell—and in some cases, it’s even okay to kill “nonbelievers,” because they’re heathens without a soul.  Killing infidels is a career promotion for mythic fundamentalists.  Jihad or “holy war” becomes one’s major duty.  Mystical experiences of oneness only deepen the feeling of the stage you’re at.  And this, of course, is a disaster.  This is why, with all the spiritual experiences that ancient traditional cultures had, they also had—with virtually no exceptions—slavery, torture, were mostly patriarchal and sexist and xenophobic.   People have often wondered why all the old-time “really religious” cultures were also some of the most utterly barbaric.  It’s because of having access to some very high states but not very high stages (hence the caste system, slavery, sexism, etc.).

 

https://awaken.com/2016/11/the-future-of-spirituality-an-interview-with-ken-wilber/

 

Thank you for posting this!

[Bindi]

Again referring to the concept of incoherent EM fields, this quote below from Stirling underscores the popular nondualist view IMO - that it’s just illusion, which of course doesn’t really work if one’s EM field is actually incoherent. 

 

 

[ralis]

17 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Again referring to the concept of incoherent EM fields, this quote below from Stirling underscores the popular nondualist view IMO - that it’s just illusion, which of course doesn’t really work if one’s EM field is actually incoherent. 

 

 

In terms of coherent/incoherent Dr. Hunt described coherency EM as a highly organized laser beam. The opposite would apply to incoherent. Both states are not separate, but compose the complete EM system where change is of primary importance. E.g. a healthy heart rhythm exhibits the spectrum of coherent to incoherent. Without incoherent fluctuations, the heart will go into arrest. 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

In terms of coherent/incoherent Dr. Hunt described coherency EM as a highly organized laser beam. The opposite would apply to incoherent. Both states are not separate, but compose the complete EM system where change is of primary importance. E.g. a healthy heart rhythm exhibits the spectrum of coherent to incoherent. Without incoherent fluctuations, the heart will go into arrest. 

Very Yin/Yang, and I wouldn’t argue against that as a fundamental principle. 

[S:C]

There's also Fritz-Albert_Popp and his Study and Theory of Biophotons. All of this seems only rudimentary and very much in dispute with a strong 'esoteric' touch. Frustrating...

[liminal_luke]

16 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Are you saying that cancer is a passive/aggressive disease in the sense of the person’s emotional make-up?

I wouldn’t say passive/aggressive. I would say it’s passive, not aggressive.

 

(from the interview with Valerie Hunt linked by Ralis)

 

While it's true that psychological factors play a role in many disease processes, I'm not a fan of this kind of analysis.  For starters, it wrongly lumps all cancers in a single category, as if everybody who has cancer is the same.  It leads people who are already suffering with their health to suffer doubly feeling they are responsible for their condition.  If a person with a health condition comes to understand how something in their emotional makeup led to their condition, that's one thing.  Third parties have no business making definitive statements.

[ralis]

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

While it's true that psychological factors play a role in many disease processes, I'm not a fan of this kind of analysis.  For starters, it wrongly lumps all cancers in a single category, as if everybody who has cancer is the same.  It leads people who are already suffering with their health to suffer doubly feeling they are responsible for their condition.  If a person with a health condition comes to understand how something in their emotional makeup led to their condition, that's one thing.  Third parties have no business making definitive statements.

 

If you bothered to read her research it is clear that she is not that rigid. There are variables in the EM field that must be taken to account.

[manitou]

On 5/20/2022 at 3:36 PM, liminal_luke said:

I think there's a connection between morality and non-dual awakening. 

 

 

The problem with this is that non-dual awakening doesn't involve judgment or morality.  Just isness.  No one to judge the good or badness.

[manitou]

58 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

While it's true that psychological factors play a role in many disease processes, I'm not a fan of this kind of analysis.  For starters, it wrongly lumps all cancers in a single category, as if everybody who has cancer is the same.  It leads people who are already suffering with their health to suffer doubly feeling they are responsible for their condition.  If a person with a health condition comes to understand how something in their emotional makeup led to their condition, that's one thing.  Third parties have no business making definitive statements.

 

 

My roommate and I were just now talking about this.  Apparently Mr. Putin has cancer of the back.  If this is the case, the metaphysical reason he has manifested this is because of things he's done in his past.  That certainly seems possible to me.

[manitou]

19 hours ago, Bindi said:

Another quote from the same article:

 

 

This could be the basis of the ‘moral’ attainment that I feel is missing in nondual awakening, going beyond impartiality, maybe evidence that someone has authentically arrived at the highest possible expression of humanness. 

 

 

The non-dual experiencer would ask who you were praying to.