Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[liminal_luke]

It's always good to know how I feel.  If I'm feeling angry, for instance, I want to know that I feel angry.  Once I know how I feel, I can choose what to do with the feeling.  Not every feeling needs to be fed and amplified; not every feeling needs to be shouted from the rooftops.  Some do but it pays to be selective.

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I had a friend who did research into cancer victims and psychological/spiritual causes and found that the one theme in all the interviews she carried out was that the patients had gone through a time in their lives when they should have changed and didn't.  I suppose this could be termed a kind of passivity - or perhaps more a habitualness.  Maybe in the subtle body this same factor is reflected in the fields that this lady is picking up.

 

It's a feature of the great Karmapa Lamas that they predict their own deaths.  The Sixteenth Karmapa got liver cancer and died (without painkillers).  I guess you could say he and others accepted death - but also it raises the question why if they are great realised beings why they didn't heal themselves (?) 

 

I would suggest because they couldn’t heal themselves, their forms of cultivation don’t confer the ability to heal. 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

But this could also go to the non-dual perspective in that if physical death is directly perceived as more of a transition or phase change then the status of physical death is diminished - and perhaps a master on knowing they are dying just accepts it (?). 
 

 

Hypothetically, if you had the ability to heal yourself and you developed some terminal condition, would it be better to accept death or heal the underlying condition? 

 

4 hours ago, Apech said:

Perhaps the status of physical death is changed relative to how we see it.

 

It is a given that we will all die, but if there is something of metaphysical value to do whilst in the physical body then it could be more beneficial to extend the life of the body. 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

This.

 

A pitfall of research into the psycho-emotional causes of cancer and other diseases is that the results can be used to prop up a false sense of control.  We think that if only passive people get cancer and we're not passive we won't get it.  The knowledge should be used to help the sick but instead it's used to offer illusory comfort to the healthy.

This sort of research can also be used  as a wake up call to guard against ‘head awakening’, the daoists have the 3 dantians that need to be cultivated, I suspect the non-passive range is in the lower dantian. 
 

Instead of illusory comfort I think conversations about the value of emotional health are required, especially in spiritual circles which I feel have progressively devalued emotional health for Millenia. What if this sort of research could support a new wave of emotionally healthy cultivatiors, what a breath of fresh air that would be. 

[Bindi]

I was re-reading Ramana Maharshi’s body disidentification process (in the spoiler below), he had a thought that he was dying (with absolutely no physical problem), and proceeded to question what this meant and came to the conclusion that even if dead (which he wasn’t) that there was still a sense of me (though he wasn’t dead) therefore the ‘I’ persists beyond the body. It was an exercise of the intellect and imagination. 
 

Near Death Experiencers will sometimes experience consciousness existing beyond the physical body, and these experiencers will often have a remarkable change in perspective when they return to life, this seems to be one of the most valuable spiritual shortcuts I’ve come across. I’m not too sure that Ramana’s imagination and intellectual conclusion are equally valuable, yet he built his whole philosophy on this imaginary question/disidentifying answer model. 
 

Spoiler

 

It was about six weeks before I left Madura for good that the great change in my life took place. It was quite sudden. I was sitting alone in a room on the first floor of my uncle’s house. I seldom had any sickness, and on that day, there was nothing wrong with my health, but a sudden violent fear of death overtook me. There was nothing in my state of health to account for it, and I did not try to account for it or to find out whether there was any reason for the fear. I just felt “I am going to die” and began thinking what to do about it.  It did not occur to me to consult a doctor, or my elders or friends; I felt that I had to solve the problem myself, there and then.

The shock of the fear of death drove my mind inwards and I said to myself mentally, without actually framing the words: “Now death has come; what does it mean? What is it that is dying? The body dies.” And I at once dramatized the occurrence of death. I lay with my limbs stretched out stiff as though rigor mortis had set in and imitated a corpse so as to give greater reality to the enquiry. I held my breath and kept my lips tightly closed so that no sound could escape, so that neither the word “I” nor any other word could be uttered. “Well then,” I said to myself, “this body is dead. It will be carried stiff to the burning ground and there burnt and reduced to ashes. But with the death of this body am I dead? Is the body I? It is silent and inert, but I feel the full force of my personality and even the voice of the ‘I’ within me, apart from it. So, I am Spirit transcending the body. The body dies but the Spirit that transcends it cannot be touched by death. That means I am the deathless Spirit.” All this was not dull thought; it flashed through me vividly as living truth which I perceived directly, almost without thought process. “I” was something very real, the only real thing about my present state, and all the conscious activity connected with my body was centered on that “I”. From that moment onwards the “I” or Self focused attention on itself by a powerful fascination. Fear of death had vanished once and for all. Absorption in the Self continued unbroken from that time on.”

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Bindi

[ralis]

edit

Edited May 24, 2022 by ralis

[silent thunder]

1 hour ago, dawn90 said:

There has to be some sort of healthy balance or else you just fall into chaos.

Fascinating.

 

Who would you suggest/select as Arbiter of what healthy balance is, to be elected to the position of selecting and enforcing it?

[S:C]

54 minutes ago, Bindi said:

most valuable spiritual shortcuts

shortcut to where? 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

‘head awakening’,

what again is this now? 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I would suggest because they couldn’t heal themselves, their forms of cultivation don’t confer the ability to heal. 

 

Couldn't or chose not to?  I don't know which.  They have plenty of healing and longlife practices in Tibetan Buddhism ... in fact if you watch the film about Namkhai Norbu (is it called voyage round my father ?) he does get sick and heal himself.

 

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

Hypothetically, if you had the ability to heal yourself and you developed some terminal condition, would it be better to accept death or heal the underlying condition? 

 

It depends - if you can see future karma and lives you might just think hey ho on to the next one

 

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

It is a given that we will all die, but if there is something of metaphysical value to do whilst in the physical body then it could be more beneficial to extend the life of the body. 

 

Yes but ... at some level what exactly the physical body is - or perhaps how it is experienced changes - after all the phys bod is a great mystery in itself.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Couldn't or chose not to?  I don't know which.  They have plenty of healing and longlife practices in Tibetan Buddhism ... in fact if you watch the film about Namkhai Norbu (is it called voyage round my father ?) he does get sick and heal himself.

 

 

 

It depends - if you can see future karma and lives you might just think hey ho on to the next one

 

 

Yes but ... at some level what exactly the physical body is - or perhaps how it is experienced changes - after all the phys bod is a great mystery in itself.

 

I meant this one https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1740799/

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Apech

[dawn90]

20 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

what again is this now? 

 

I think he means being overcharged, in the head area.

 

Higher chakras more activated than the lower ones.

[Apech]

This seems to be a legit stream:

 

https://archive.org/details/MyReincarnation2011

[ralis]

16 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

 

I think he means being overcharged, in the head area.

 

Higher chakras more activated than the lower ones.

 

Would you please remove the Billy Graham video. It is nothing but guilt and fear drivel and has nothing to do with this discussion.

[dawn90]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

Why the Billy Graham video? Billy Graham and his Souther Baptist ilk play on peoples fears!

 

You've got experience with Billy Graham?

[ralis]

Just now, dawn90 said:

 

You've got experience with Billy Graham?

 

That is not the point! The OP is regarding non-dual with dualism, but so far the discussion has been enlightening, unlike so many other discussions on this site. Let's keep the guilt and fear mongering out of it. Shall we?

[dawn90]

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

Would you please remove the Billy Graham video. It is nothing but guilt and fear drivel and has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

I'll remove it.

But I had no idea it was so triggering.

 

But Ralis.

The reason I put this video was to support my argument that the heart can be deceitful.

That was the link.

I'll write another post.

 

PS: I thought the tone he used was actually pretty soothing to me bit obviously you know things about him that I don't.

Edited May 23, 2022 by dawn90

[ralis]

Just now, dawn90 said:

 

I'll remove it.

But I had no idea it was so triggering.

 

But Ralis.

The reason I put this video was to support my argument that the heart can be deceitful.

That was the link.

I'll write another post.

 

According to Southern Baptist dogma.

[dawn90]

3 minutes ago, ralis said:

According to Southern Baptist dogma

 

You really have been affected by the Catholic Church haven't you.

 

I removed the video but I have to say that what he said at least in the video I subscribe to.

To enfasis that point.

[ralis]

33 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

 

You really have been affected by the Catholic Church haven't you.

 

I removed the video but I have to say that what he said at least in the video I subscribe to.

To enfasis that point.

 

Thanks! As I said before it was the guilt tripping and blaming what he doesn't understand. The heart center is not the physical heart as he alludes to.

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Fascinating.

 

Who would you suggest/select as Arbiter of what healthy balance is, to be elected to the position of selecting and enforcing it?

 

one's "higher" self and higher conscience 

Edited May 24, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, schroedingerscat said:

shortcut to where? 

what again is this now? 

NDE’s seem like a shortcut to gaining a ‘spiritual’ perspective: 

 

Quote

 

NDEs and other transcendent experiences are often associated

with radical and permanent transformations of experiencers’ atti-

tudes, beliefs, and lifestyle. The aftereffects typically reported are

increases in spirituality, concern for others, and appreciation of life

as well as decreases in the fear of death, materialism, and com-

petitiveness (Greyson, 2006). A recent review of research into the

characteristic changes after NDEs found the most commonly re-

ported to be loss of fear of death; strengthened belief in life after

death; feeling specially favored by God; a new sense of purpose or

mission; heightened self-esteem; increased compassion and love

for others; lessened concern for material gain, recognition, or

status; greater desire to serve others; increased ability to express

feelings; greater appreciation of and zest for life; increased focus

on the present; deeper religious faith or heightened spirituality;

search for knowledge; and greater appreciation for nature (Noyes

et al., 2009). 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274865883_Daily_Spiritual_Experiences_Before_and_After_Near-Death_Experiences

 

By ‘head awakening’ I mean a non-dual experience which only changes one’s perspective or perhaps more correctly one’s perception. Steve posted earlier that nondual realisation  is not equivalent to spiritual development, whereas I would class the consequences of an NDE as a spiritual shift. 

 

 

[ralis]

38 minutes ago, Bindi said:

NDE’s seem like a shortcut to gaining a ‘spiritual’ perspective: 

 

By ‘head awakening’ I mean a non-dual experience which only changes one’s perspective or perhaps more correctly one’s perception. Steve posted earlier that nondual realisation  is not equivalent to spiritual development, whereas I would class the consequences of an NDE as a spiritual shift. 

 

 

 

What about the entire being (body) experiencing a full awakening? There seems to be scant evidence of it. Although, U.G. Krishnamurti, Sri Aurobindo and Mirra Alfassa AKA The Mother, may be in that category.

Edited May 24, 2022 by ralis

[Lairg]

One of the simple ways of dealing with duality is to take a top-down view of Reality rather than a bottom-up view

 

The bottom-up view is necessarily very dualistic - matter looking at spirit

Edited May 24, 2022 by Lairg

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, Brad M said:

 

... We resort to notions of dualisim in order to reinforce a notion that there is some perfect soul behind our eyes, which is pure, unborn and undying.  People cant accept their moral, physical or other imperfections (cancer, for example), and so they resort to positing a being in the abstract, which separate from their physical body and is unsoiled. 

      

 

In the Old Testament, God instructs Adam:

 

Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

 

(NKJV Genesis 2:16-7)

 

Adam did eat, and he didn’t die, but he did find himself cast out of the garden.

 

In the Gospel of John, Jesus says:

 

Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.

 

(NKJV John 8:51)

 

The Gospel of Thomas (a gnostic text uncovered at Nag Hammadi in 1945) opens as follows:

 

These are the secret words which the Living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas wrote. And He said:

Whoever finds the explanation of these words will not taste death.

 

(The Gospel According to Thomas, coptic text established and translated by A. Guillaumont, H.-CH. Puech, G. Quispel, W. Till and Yassah ‘Abd Al Masih, p. 3 log. 1, ©1959 E. J. Brill)

 

Gautama the Buddha spoke of “the Deathless”:

 

As (one) dwells in body contemplating body, ardent… that desire to do, that is in body, is abandoned. By the abandoning of desire to do, the Deathless is realized. So with feelings… mind… mental states… that desire to do, that is in mind-states, is abandoned. By the abandoning of the desire to do, the Deathless is realized.

(SN V 182, Pali Text Society V p 159)

 

And again:

 

(One) cultivates right concentration, which is based on detachment, on dispassion, on cessation, which ends in self-surrender, which plunges into the deathless, which has the deathless for its aim, which has the deathless for its end.

(SN V 54, Pali Text Society V p 44)

 

Gautama taught the cessation of action born of determinate thought. He taught that such action ceases gradually, first in speech, then in body, and finally in “perceiving and feeling” (action of the mind).

 

The cessation of action born of determinate thought must needs include the cessation of action on the basis of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

We are stardust, we are golden
And we’ve got to get ourselves back to the garden

 

(Joni Mitchell, “Woodstock”; “Ladies of the Canyon”, April 1970)

 

 

(above, my post The Tree of Knowledge)

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

... the daoists have the 3 dantians that need to be cultivated, I suspect the non-passive range is in the lower dantian. 
 

 

I was thinking something along the same lines, when I read that statement by Dr. Hunt.  Too bad she couldn't have researched whether there was a correlation between any particular mode of cultivation and the passive or aggressive emotional tenours she was describing.

Gautama is reported to have eaten of a pig that had ingested poisonous mushrooms.  What's known is that he said that he saw no one else in the room with the karma to accept the meal, so no one else ate it--the pig was an offering to the order, and Gautama did not refuse it.  Three months later, if I understand correctly, he invited anyone who still had questions to ask them, made his last remarks, laid down on his right side and died.  

He was 85, and said that he felt like an old cart that was held together with ropes.

It's a pretty good trick, I guess, to intuit something like that, and accept that the action is right whatever the outcome might be.

 

I think the main thing reported by persons who have near-death experience is that they are no longer afraid of dying.  A thing profoundly to be wished for!

Edited May 24, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Bindi]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

This seems to be a legit stream:

 

https://archive.org/details/MyReincarnation2011

I wasn’t able to play it, but it does sound quite interesting, I tried to buy it to watch online but couldn’t even manage that.