Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[old3bob]

balanced and still have a safety line...what are your safety lines?

 

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

Yes this is the nondual line,  but I prefer to work on the subtle energy body because I think there is a fundamental problem with it that needs to be resolved. All very dual, but that’s where I’ve laid my bets. 
 

Here’s my theory for today, nonduality is the culmination of the patriarchal fix, initially emotions were suspect and then with the introduction of meditation mental activity also became suspect, until we came to the ultimate rationale that they are all illusion anyway. The new way is a matriarchal system where emotions are meaningful and their health starts to heal the entire subtle energy system, mental activity is part of the whole, and a foetus that represents our spiritual self has to be created and birthed. 

 

Edit: Just to be clear I think humanity in general has an emotional problem, and the real fix involves sorting this out. 

 

 

Lord save us from the matriarchy, I do not wish to be bound to substance and the evolutions of substance.  Lord save us from the patriarchy I do not wish to be made lifeless through rationality.

 

The subtle body, I think, is intermediary, it is fluid yet has structure, it is energy but has form.  It juxtaposes and relates male and female.  Through it a person can understand struggle and life.  Conflict and resolution.  It avoids the abstract non-dual but makes the conditions for the genuine non-dual, which is its parent and child.

 

Human history, which in recent times involved mass conflict and destruction - perhaps even the risk of complete self destruction - war and dehumanisation of life - has made us conflict averse, as if avoiding conflict is the way.  But the Ancients knew that birth is struggle, life is struggle and that the dualist world was in a sense a battleground.  A battleground with a purpose which ultimately is the higher purpose of Spirit itself.  

 

 

[old3bob]

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Edited May 30, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Lord save us from the matriarchy, I do not wish to be bound to substance and the evolutions of substance.  Lord save us from the patriarchy I do not wish to be made lifeless through rationality.

 

The subtle body, I think, is intermediary, it is fluid yet has structure, it is energy but has form.  It juxtaposes and relates male and female.  Through it a person can understand struggle and life.  Conflict and resolution.  It avoids the abstract non-dual but makes the conditions for the genuine non-dual, which is its parent and child.

 

Human history, which in recent times involved mass conflict and destruction - perhaps even the risk of complete self destruction - war and dehumanisation of life - has made us conflict averse, as if avoiding conflict is the way.  But the Ancients knew that birth is struggle, life is struggle and that the dualist world was in a sense a battleground.  A battleground with a purpose which ultimately is the higher purpose of Spirit itself.  

 

 

Ultimately we need to go beyond male and female, but to get to the ultimate we need to start with the female subtle forces. Sometimes I throw in a word like matriarchy because I have a slightly warped sense of humour, but I do stand by my assertion that starting with Yin is what has been missing from all the cultivation systems on offer. 

[dawn90]

I like the idea that you draw information by your antenna into your brain through a cord that can be seen either etherically, or as a metaphor as a bringing down of information from ascended masters in the form of scripture.

I think we all do that, dualists or non-dualists.

We all like here to study things and then try to fill it. With our experiences.

And then we feel we're getting somewhere.

 

And finally drop it; into the heart. Where we become it.

I think it echoes some of what Apech said, I can't quote I don't remember where it is but I'm sure he said that.

The difference, between experiencing; and feeling you're becoming it.

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, dawn90 said:

I like the idea that you draw information by your antenna into your brain through a cord that can be seen either etherically

 

When I look at humans with dementia, it looks like the brain connects to the mind through an etheric interface that is a bit like honeycomb in color and structure.   In the dementia cases I have examined, the interface layer has become loose so that the mind has limited connection to the brain.

 

Sometimes it is possible to reconnect some of that interface - depending upon various factors including scheduled reincarnation 

[Mark Foote]

On 5/28/2022 at 5:13 PM, steve said:

 

So even in tantric practice the best way is to practice while resting in the nature of mind. Second best way is using the mind - reciting, hearing and seeing clearly, and understanding the meaning. Third way is praying with deep devotion and trust. 

 

 

I think that roughly corresponds with "gain it, see it, hear it"--backward from the way things actually progress.

I mentioned to friends yesterday that I finally have a work-around for what I believe is an injury to ligaments around L3.  The work-around involves relaxing the abdominals that correspond with flexion/extension that I pick up at T12-L1.  Seems to keep the pain out of my legs and knees.  The trick is that I have to relax the muscles to continue to feel the flexion and extension, and I have to feel and calm the flexion and extension to let the activity of the muscles take place autonomically, as it were.

Comes a moment when I must rest with the location of self-awareness, and let the location of self-awareness lead the balance.  Then it's a matter of staying awake to the location of self-awareness, nothing else.

Breath and the balance/activity of the spine (Nerfertiti and Isis?):

 

 

Sacrum and the lowest three vertebrae, a balance upward guided by the goddesses Isis and Nepthys whose weight rests on the sacrotuberous ligaments of the pelvis, activity in the abdominals, consciousness under the diaphragm.

 

The god Hapi on both sides, the ilio-lumbar ligaments in two sets--one horizontal between the pelvis and L5 stretching in extension, the other vertical between the pelvis and L4, stretching in flexion.  Feet of the god on the sacrum, consciousness free:

 

 

(Had to correct the flexion/extension correlation, apologies--not something I feel often, more's the pity)

Edited May 31, 2022 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

When I look at humans with dementia, it looks like the brain connects to the mind through an etheric interface that is a bit like honeycomb in color and structure.   In the dementia cases I have examined, the interface layer has become loose so that the mind has limited connection to the brain.

 

Sometimes it is possible to reconnect some of that interface - depending upon various factors including scheduled reincarnation 

 

I think this idea that the brain is where "mind" comes from is only a correlation. B. Allan Wallace puts this quite eloquently:

 

Quote

The fundamental belief of this scientific materialism is that the whole of reality consists only of space-time and matter-energy, and their emergent properties. This implies that the only true causation is physical causation, that there are no nonphysical influences in the universe. When applied to human existence, this worldview implies that subjective experience is either physical—despite all evidence to the contrary—or doesn’t exist at all, which is simply insulting to our intelligence. As the philosopher John R. Searle states in his book The Rediscovery of the Mind, “Earlier materialists argued that there aren’t any such things as separate mental phenomena, because mental phenomena are identical with brain states. More recent materialists argue that there aren’t any such things as separate mental phenomena because they are not identical with brain states. I find this pattern very revealing, and what it reveals is an urge to get rid of mental phenomena at any cost.”

 

It is commonplace nowadays to equate the mind with the brain, or to insist that the mind is nothing more than a function of the brain. But this is merely a metaphysical belief that has never been validated through scientific research. While the mind and brain are clearly correlated in precise ways that have been revealed through advances in cognitive neuroscience, the exact nature of those correlations remains a mystery. This mystery, however, is veiled by the illusion of knowledge that the mind-body problem has already been solved. But, while all other branches of modern science have focused on the direct observation of the natural phenomena they seek to understand, the cognitive sciences have insisted on avoiding such direct observation of mental phenomena. The simple reason for this choice is that subjectively experienced mental processes and states of consciousness do not fit within the materialist paradigm that has dominated science since the beginning of the 20th century.

 

As both contemplatives and scientists wake up to the limitations of their respective pursuits of knowledge, we may see a renaissance in open-minded, rigorous contemplative inquiry. This flourishing would call for an integration of first-person and third-person methods of research, which may enhance the hedonic and eudaimonic well-being of humanity. The world is facing unprecedented challenges—environmental, economic, social, and moral—and to successfully rise to meet these challenges we must draw on the wisdom of the East and the West, of the ancient and the modern. The same challenges that imperil our very existence may help us unite in ways never before witnessed in human history. - B. Allan Wallace

 

 

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/six-questions-b-alan-wallace/

 

In my opinion "Mind" is inseparable from the fabric of reality. What "this" all is IS Mind. Mind isn't a local phenomena, it is a holographic phenomena, existing everywhere/every-time.

[Lairg]

10 minutes ago, stirling said:

What "this" all is IS Mind

 

 

What do women say?         Perhaps all is heart. 

 

Perhaps there is much beyond heart

Edited May 31, 2022 by Lairg

[Mark Foote]

15 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

The god Hapi on both sides, the ilio-lumbar ligaments in two sets--one horizontal between the pelvis and L5 stretching in extension, the other vertical between the pelvis and L4, stretching in flexion.  Feet of the god on the sacrum, consciousness free:

 

 

(Had to correct the flexion/extension correlation, apologies--not something I feel often, more's the pity)

Ok--that last is not quite true.  I realized after I wrote this that I was actually discovering a correlation between flexion and extension around L5 and L4 and activity in the abdominals, particularly in the internal obliques, before I suffered the sprain (I'm thinking it is) around L3.  Particularly on the dance floor, I could find the stretch in the sacrotuberous ligaments and feel an ensuing strength in the lower abdomen--it caused (causes) my knees to bend, alternately, as the weight shifted from side to side.

Funny story.  One night there was a gentleman of Chinese descent (I think it was) out on the dance floor at my local Pomo casino, where the cover bands are free on the weekend.  The guy had a lower abdomen strength that I could feel, but no one else seemed to notice.  He had very limited English, but he smiled a lot, and he told me the knees should come up as I danced--he was very forward, coming up to me and speaking, pointing to my knees.  Well, my knees did start to come up, when I found that stretch in the sacrotuberous.  I was already aware of that connection, and looking for it when I danced, but it was interesting that he thought it was important. 

He made me laugh. 

He disappeared from the dance floor, and the rancheria.  Months later I found out that he was also very forward in attempting to dance with a number of women on the dance floor, and got himself 86'd from the casino.  

Anyway, I'm grateful now to focus a lot on flexion and extension between T12 and L1.  I think this is going to be a long haul for me, because the activity in the abdominals generated in connection with this flexion and extension is in the upper abdomen, and my posture has always reflected the fact that I am weak in this coordination. 

Here's a good illustration of the stretch of ligaments (ilio-tibial tract, attachments of gluts at tract and sacrum, attachments of tensors at tract and pubic bones) in the lower body effecting stretch at the ligaments along the spine (and behind the spine), with a return of energy to the lower dan-tien--at least, that's what the illustration is about, in my estimation:




(From "The Secret of the Golden Flower", now dated somewhere between 1668 and 1692)
 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Mark Foote

[mrpasserby]

On 5/20/2022 at 4:08 PM, Bindi said:

I don’t know if “light body” equals “immortal spiritual body”, I tend to think not. There’s the astral light body but this is quite limited, I feel the immortal spiritual body must be something more than this.

(taken from my personal linkage and experience):

In the past I have viewed a light body improvement initiation.

Making a "light body" functional sometimes called a "immortal spirit body", takes much work and practice, accompanied by exceeding uncomfortable testing and initiations. The discomfort and damage during the process, frequently has a notable impact upon the physical body.

Edited May 31, 2022 by mrpasserby
Improved clarity, added type of disclaimer

[old3bob]

I'd say that only Brahman is truly "immortal" per a so called before, during and after the total cosmic cycle...all else arise and return and then another cycle will take place... (so a particular evolved individual, being or soul woven of light could be immortal in sense for a very, very long time but that weaving, which they are, will also return)

 

(I'd say that meaning is similar to but on a different scale to the Tao that gave birth to the 'One", the One that is "the first and the last" to manifest in phases of a cycle)

 

Thus a real party pooper for those that want to remain being a particular individual as a particular  light body and thus remain separate and independent  from returning.

Edited May 31, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

I'd say that only Brahman is truly "immortal" per a so called before, during and after the total cosmic cycle...all else arise and return and then another cycle will take place... (so a particular evolved individual, being or soul woven of light could be immortal in sense for a very, very long time but that weaving, which they are, will also return)

 

(I'd say that meaning is similar to but on a different scale to the Tao that gave birth to the 'One", the One that is "the first and the last" to manifest in phases of a cycle)

 

Thus a real party pooper for those that want to remain being a particular individual as a particular  light body and thus remain separate and independent  from returning.

My subtle energy body develops, but I didn’t set out to develop a subtle energy body. What happens to it at or after death I have no idea, nor is that really my interest, for now I’d like to go on until I see what a fully functioning subtle energy body does while I’m alive. 
 

[dawn90]

 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

My subtle energy body develops, but I didn’t set out to develop a subtle energy body. What happens to it at or after death I have no idea, nor is that really my interest, for now I’d like to go on until I see what a fully functioning subtle energy body does while I’m alive. 
 

 

I'd say fair enough and part of the Wonder!

[mrpasserby]

@Bindi

"My subtle energy body develops, but I didn’t set out to develop a subtle energy body. What happens to it at or after death I have no idea, nor is that really my interest, for now I’d like to go on until I see what a fully functioning subtle energy body does while I’m alive."

In my experience: It is necessary to practice energy generating alchemy, or to have great physical stamina to be able to experience a functional energy body.

Spoiler

Example: in a attempted healing ceremony with Jewish elders, they projected two tiny light angels that continuously injected me with energy, so that my energy body could pop out to be looked at.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by mrpasserby
fix spelling, clarify

[Lairg]

The etheric part of the subtle body can be seen fairly easily.  Find a matt black surface and hold a hand over it.  The etheric body can be seen as a blue-shadow outline about 1/16 of an inch away from the flesh.  Rub the hands together then hold them over the black surface and slowly pull them apart watching the etheric substance

 

I had a friend come back from a missing-time walk on Mt Shasta and her etheric body was displaced by a couple of inches.  She did not want it fixed and at the next group meditation she said that an energy came into the "gap" between her physical and etheric bodies and then the etheric body aligned.  I could see the alignment but I did not understand what was the energy that entered and why it waited until then

 

 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Lairg

[mrpasserby]

On 5/17/2022 at 5:04 PM, Bindi said:

Your heaven on earth is warm, friendly and creative, my heaven on earth involves active subtle energy healers who know what is in people’s hearts (for example Saint Seraphim of Sarov). The non-dualist must see this as too dual, I see the return of the non-dualist as not enough. 

We resonate in dualism on the subject of  active subtle energy healers also.

[Bindi]

On 30/5/2022 at 7:13 PM, Apech said:

 

Lord save us from the matriarchy, I do not wish to be bound to substance and the evolutions of substance.  Lord save us from the patriarchy I do not wish to be made lifeless through rationality.

 

The subtle body, I think, is intermediary, it is fluid yet has structure, it is energy but has form.  It juxtaposes and relates male and female.  Through it a person can understand struggle and life.  Conflict and resolution.  It avoids the abstract non-dual but makes the conditions for the genuine non-dual, which is its parent and child.

 

Human history, which in recent times involved mass conflict and destruction - perhaps even the risk of complete self destruction - war and dehumanisation of life - has made us conflict averse, as if avoiding conflict is the way.  But the Ancients knew that birth is struggle, life is struggle and that the dualist world was in a sense a battleground.  A battleground with a purpose which ultimately is the higher purpose of Spirit itself.  

 

 

I’ll try to explain my perspective in non-sexist terms, because I think it’s actually a most important point. In Daoist terms the Hun (spiritual, ethereal, yang) soul wants to ascend, the Po (corporeal, substantive, yin) soul wants to descend. These need to be reversed so that the Po soul rises and the Hun soul comes down, all I’m saying is that IME reversing the Po soul is the first thing to attend to. 
 

Rationally, this makes sense because the corporeal or earthly is more familiar to us, the spiritual or ethereal is the unknown. Dealing with what is within our sphere of comprehension (with you wei, self effort) leads to the spiritual soul force reversing its direction of its own accord (Wu wei). 

[manitou]

On 5/28/2022 at 6:31 PM, steve said:

The mind is not what is being trusted in nondual practice.

 

 

Well put, Steve.  I couldn't agree with you more.  It's like there's this place at the bottom of the well, or the space inside the spoke of the wheel, that can be relied on and trusted for everything.  It underlies mind, mind is just conditioning.  This is beyond conditioning, and it knows the answers at any given moment.  All it takes is being Still to access it.  It opens like a lotus and the Way emerges.  It is always there, only our conditioning gets in the way at any given moment.  Until we remember to dive down through the conditioning into the lotus again...

Inhabiting the place of the lotus at all times seems to be the ultimate goal.  This can be done, but that seems to be the challenge post-awakening, for the rest of the time that we're chopping wood and carrying water in this dimension.

[Bindi]

25 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Well put, Steve.  I couldn't agree with you more.  It's like there's this place at the bottom of the well, or the space inside the spoke of the wheel, that can be relied on and trusted for everything.  It underlies mind, mind is just conditioning.  This is beyond conditioning, and it knows the answers at any given moment.  All it takes is being Still to access it.  It opens like a lotus and the Way emerges.  It is always there, only our conditioning gets in the way at any given moment.  Until we remember to dive down through the conditioning into the lotus again...

Inhabiting the place of the lotus at all times seems to be the ultimate goal.  This can be done, but that seems to be the challenge post-awakening, for the rest of the time that we're chopping wood and carrying water in this dimension.

Perhaps the only difference is that I prefer to work on completely removing all the conditioning first, as well as establishing relevant underlying support mechanisms, so there doesn’t need to be this continual diving down. Ramana Maharshi spent years in nirvikalpa samadhi in order to be at one with the ‘Self’, in the end it became somewhat present all the time, though I suspect never quite fully.

[mrpasserby]

18 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’ll try to explain my perspective in non-sexist terms, because I think it’s actually a most important point. In Daoist terms the Hun (spiritual, ethereal, yang) soul wants to ascend, the Po (corporeal, substantive, yin) soul wants to descend. These need to be reversed so that the Po soul rises and the Hun soul comes down, all I’m saying is that IME reversing the Po soul is the first thing to attend to. 
 

Rationally, this makes sense because the corporeal or earthly is more familiar to us, the spiritual or ethereal is the unknown. Dealing with what is within our sphere of comprehension (with you wei, self effort) leads to the spiritual soul force reversing its direction of its own accord (Wu wei)

I can't match your clear explicit (dualist) words, all that I have is experiences, then I attempt to enplane in words. I have seen in my lineage a ceremony that has that kind of a effect and until you posted I didn't know how to explain it. So I say "what you said"! The ceremony starts the transition of the change from the you in the physical body to the you in your functional subtill energy body, and I considered it to be like what you posted but not limited to it.

Also doesn't activating your 1000 petal lotus do something similar to razing yang and descending yin (at leas the energies)?

Edited June 2, 2022 by mrpasserby
clarity

[stirling]

On 5/30/2022 at 9:39 PM, Lairg said:

What do women say?         Perhaps all is heart. 

 

Perhaps there is much beyond heart

 

Not brain, but "mind". Emotions and thoughts alike arise and pass. It's nothing to get in a kerfuffle about, I promise.  Beyond? Where would that be?

[Lairg]

4 minutes ago, stirling said:

Beyond? Where would that be?

I hardly need point out that the ancient Egyptians thought the heart more important than the brain.  These days we know that the heart has brain-like neurons   https://exploringyourmind.com/the-heart-has-neurons-too/

 

So if we rise up the planes the flows of:

- physical-etheric energies are focused in the pelvis

- emotional energies in the solar plexus

- mental energies in the brain and front parts of the head

- buddhic energies through the heart

- atmic (spiritual will) energies through the base and back of the skull

- monadic (Spirit in humans) energies just above the top of the skull

 

The base of the spine is used for cosmic earth connections - in women that have given birth naturally and in first stage enlightenment.

 

Humans start with controlling the effects of the lower planes and slowly work their way up to mental and even heart energies.    

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Ramana Maharshi spent years in nirvikalpa samadhi in order to be at one with the ‘Self’, in the end it became somewhat present all the time, though I suspect never quite fully.

 

This is not a commonly held belief. Perhaps you could explain this more fully?