Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[stirling]

1 minute ago, Lairg said:

I hardly need point out that the ancient Egyptians thought the heart more important than the brain.  These days we know that the heart has brain-like neurons   https://exploringyourmind.com/the-heart-has-neurons-too/

 

So if we rise up the planes the flows of:

- physical-etheric energies are focused in the pelvis

- emotional energies in the solar plexus

- mental energies in the brain and front parts of the head

- buddhic energies through the heart

- atmic (spiritual will) energies through the base and back of the skull

- monadic (Spirit in humans) energies just above the top of the skull

 

The base of the spine is used for cosmic earth connections - in women that have given birth naturally and in first stage enlightenment.

 

Humans start with controlling the effects of the lower planes and slowly work their way up to mental and even heart energies.    

 

At this point a beyond that is any-place or any-time else is obviously just getting lost, which isn't to say I didn't enjoy hanging out at Gloucester Place with the Theosophists, or in Crowborough with the Rosicrucians in the 90's, or piecing together my own cosmological tomes of theories that "resonated" with me. 

 

I can see auras, spectral monks, and dead people. It doesn't lead anywhere. The questions lead to more questions and don't tell you anything about the nature of reality. 

 

None of this is at all complicated. The complication, the mysteries, the standing stones, the prophesies etc. are fun, but really just entangled paths in a forest that lead nowhere.

 

As Manitou says, sagely, it is really just about stopping. Being still. Looking at what is here right now, in this moment. 

 

This is my personal experience.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Perhaps the only difference is that I prefer to work on completely removing all the conditioning first, as well as establishing relevant underlying support mechanisms, so there doesn’t need to be this continual diving down. Ramana Maharshi spent years in nirvikalpa samadhi in order to be at one with the ‘Self’, in the end it became somewhat present all the time, though I suspect never quite fully.

 

This gets to the crux of the OP, do we work with the leaves and branches or the root? That is the difference between methods emphasizing duality and nonduality. I don’t think we often have a choice. We work with what is present for us with the tools we can access and use effectively. Also important to recognize that this can change and flexibility is valuable.

 

While you may want to avoid “continually diving down,” “removing all the conditioning first” is no less formidable an undertaking. In fact, most wisdom traditions and my own experience suggest dealing with the root is far more expedient than chasing the myriad leaves and branches. 

 

Once again, do we really have a choice? I think the important point is recognizing what we can access and what supports us and to work with that, remaining open to new possibilities as we move along the path.

[dawn90]

Isn't life about choosing your conditioning?

You could undoe your "conditioning" and fall into another one. I mean we're all conditioned: either deliberately or through the hand of somebody.

So which conditioning do you like is what's it's about.

 

At the end we all have to trust somebody to do the conditioning for us.

Who do we like?

 

The expression making up your mind, proves it starts in the brain.

You start your mind in one direction and the heart follows - and you could have a change of heart.

 

I always think that if I had a change of heart I'd try to think about it but maybe that's just me.

 

In other words.

If a change of mind came to me; then. I'd try to get my heart to follow because I would think it is a good idea.

And I'd wonder why my heart isn't changing.

 

That's probably what makes a dualist and a non-dualist: what do you trust more.

I lead from the head; so for me always the mind.

Because i think the mind is inherently better able to discriminate and inherently cares more about right and wrong. If guided.

I'd rather let my head to the leading.

My heart takes in anything, I give it.

Including the bad stuff and it doesn't discriminate as much because it doesn't belive in right and wrong I have to teach it.

And my mind gets it from above and now it pretty much can figure it out on its own - so I rely on it.

The heart, I think, can still easily be swayed I have to watch out for it, but mostly they get along the two; I'm more balanced.

Heart and brain together: I love it.

Edited June 2, 2022 by dawn90

[stirling]

5 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

isn't life about choosing your conditioning?

You could undoe your "conditioning" and fall into another one. I mean we're all conditioned: either deliberately or through the hand of somebody.

So which conditioning do you like is what's it's about.

 

At the end we all have to trust somebody to do the conditioning for us.

Who do we like?

 

The expression making up your mind, proves it starts in the brain.

You start your mind in one direction and the heart follows - and you could have a change of heart.

 

I always think that if I had a change of heart I'd try to think about it but maybe that's just me.

 

It get this intimately... I do. This is a precisely described map for getting lost, in my experience. The belief in a chooser, volition in choosing, conditioning, trust... this is why the genius of resting in stillness is so clear, clean and definitive. Resting the mind and just being present drops the anxiety and uncertainty of whatever story you feel you have chosen. It's a clean, clear drink of water on a hot day.

 

Why not experiment with just dropping the idea of a direction, or what the heart wants in this moment. What if there is just this moment, as it is, and the past and future, all thoughts of things you messed up, or hopes for the future are only thoughts you are having in this now, not real past residences, or future destinations. There is always a moment where nothing is wrong - things just are - and that moment is always NOW.  

[dawn90]

8 minutes ago, stirling said:

story you feel you have chosen.

 

Haven't you chosen the story of the guy who drops stories.

 

I personally don't suffer from being lost. I like the hunt.

The search and I feed off of that. I feel I'm going places - maybe that doesn't sound attractive enough but I do like my judging, I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't.

But for me right and wrong doesn't give me anxiety. I feel well grounded and strong to face what I must do and feel proud of it.

But at times you live in the moment I get what you are saying.

 

Different states for different occasions - you want to be multi-functional.

[Lairg]

45 minutes ago, stirling said:

I can see auras, spectral monks, and dead people. It doesn't lead anywhere. The questions lead to more questions and don't tell you anything about the nature of reality. 

 

As the saying goes:  the kingdom of heaven is within

 

 

[stirling]

4 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

Haven't you chosen the story of the guy who drops stories.

 

I personally don't suffer from being lost. I like the hunt.

The search and I feed off of that. I feel I'm going places - maybe that doesn't sound attractive enough but I do like my judging, I'd be lying to you if I said I didn't.

But for me right and wrong doesn't give me anxiety. I feel well grounded and strong to face what I must do and feel proud of it.

But at times you live in the moment I get what you are saying.

 

Different states for different occasions - you want to be multi-functional.

 

I appreciate your sincerity.

 

I don't choose any stories. I remember the story of the acolyte who created a web of intrigue and drama where there wasn't one, amongst many.. Was it necessary? I could tell you it was, but it would be yet another story.

 

-None of that is happening now, and now is always reality as it is.-

 

I remember the search, the excitement, the drama of far away places, and strange ritual. The DaVinci Code is a well-worn path. It's absolutely attractive! That's the point! If it is what you are driven to do, do it.. but KNOW there is a way out that embraces the simplicity that (maybe?) whispers to you in quiet moments. 

 

I appreciate you not lying to me. I offer you the same reciprocity.

[stirling]

12 minutes ago, Lairg said:

As the saying goes:  the kingdom of heaven is within

 

Ah... within WHAT? 

[Lairg]

 

4 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Ah... within WHAT? 

 

The kingdom of heaven is within the human.  Unfortunately the anchoring energy is in the heart so most humans take quite a few lives to find it

Edited June 2, 2022 by Lairg

[stirling]

Nah. The Kingdom of Heaven is present in this moment always.

 

It is present at parties, at car accidents, during sex, and even when a loved one dies. It's everywhere and permeates all experiences all the time, and belongs to no-one. It is impossibly beautiful and looks JUST LIKE THIS. It isn't "in" anything, it is the fabric or your experiencing MINUS what you think you are looking at. It is the antithesis of history, places, lives, and discovery. It's always right here, waiting for you to drop into it. It has never been anywhere or anytime else.

[Lairg]

If you say so.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

This is not a commonly held belief. Perhaps you could explain this more fully?

 

Ramana spent a large part of his life in intensive meditation after his awakening at 16,  I assume this was in some sort of samadhi because he had no awareness of what was happening to his body. It makes sense to me that it might have been nirvikalpa samadhi, otherwise why make any effort to meditate? Later in life he spent less time in meditation, perhaps he was more able to remain in the primal state without effort? 

 

"Holding on to the supreme state is Samadhi. When it is with effort due to mental disturbances, it is Savikalpa. When these disturbances are absent, it is Nirvikalpa. Remaining permanently in the primal state without effort is Sahaja."

 

Ramana Maharshi on Samadhi

Question : What is samadhi?

Ramana Maharshi : The state in which the unbroken experience of existence-consciousness is attained by the still mind, alone is samadhi. That still mind which is adorned with the attainment of the limitless supreme Self, alone is the reality of God.

When the mind is in communion with the Self in darkness, it is called nidra [sleep], that is, the immersion of the mind in ignorance. Immersion in a conscious or wakeful state is called samadhi. Samadhi is continuous inherence in the Self in a waking state. Nidra or sleep is also inherence in the Self but in an unconscious state. In sahaja samadhi the communion is con-tinuous.
 

Question : What are kevala nirvikalpa samadhi and sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi?

Ramana Maharshi :The immersion of the mind in the Self, but without its destruction, is kevala nirvikalpa samadhi. In this state one is not free from vasanas and so one does not therefore attain mukti. Only after the vasanas have been destroyed can one attain liberation.
 

Question : When can one practise sahaja samadhi?

Ramana Maharshi : Even from the beginning. Even though one practises kevala nirvikalpa samadhi for years together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas one will not attain liberation.
 

Question : May I have a clear idea of the difference between savikalpa and nirvikalpa?

Ramana Maharshi : Holding on to the supreme state is samadhi. When it is with effort due to mental disturbances, it is savikalpa. When these disturbances are absent, it is nirvikalpa. Remaining permanently in the primal state without effort is sahaja.
 

Question : Is nirvikalpa samadhi absolutely necessary before the attainment of sahaja?

Ramana Maharshi : Abiding permanently in any of these samadhis, either savikalpa or nirvikatpa, is sahaja [the natural state]. What is body-consciousness? It is the insentient body plus consciousness. Both of these must lie in another consciousness which is absolute and unaffected and which remains as it always is, with or without the body-consciousness. What does it then matter whether the body-consciousness is lost or retained, provided one is holding on to that pure consciousness? Total absence of body-consciousness has the advantage of making the samadhi more intense, although it makes no difference to the knowledge of the supreme.

Source: Be As You Are, David Godman

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

This gets to the crux of the OP, do we work with the leaves and branches or the root?

 

Exactly, and my way is indeed to work with the leaves and branches because I believe it is impossible to work with the root first, but but I still aim to end up at the root. 

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

That is the difference between methods emphasizing duality and nonduality. 

 

Sure. 

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

I don’t think we often have a choice. We work with what is present for us with the tools we can access and use effectively. Also important to recognize that this can change and flexibility is valuable.

 

Yes and no, after a spontaneous experience of nonduality a person might choose a nondual method specifically to re-experience that state, another might have a nondual experience and accept that it was a taste of things to come but not an invitation to try and grasp it repeatedly. Others might fool themselves into obtaining a mental approximation of nonduality after reading the literature, but as I tried to demonstrate earlier this belief system can be shown to be shallow if/when the body starts to fail.  

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

While you may want to avoid “continually diving down,” “removing all the conditioning first” is no less formidable an undertaking. In fact, most wisdom traditions and my own experience suggest dealing with the root is far more expedient than chasing the myriad leaves and branches. 

 

Removing all conditioning first is a most formidable undertaking! Where the Buddhist sees muddy water and carefully lets the mud settle, ever mindful of not disturbing it, I stir up the mud and over time and with the help of extra water I clear the muddy water until its crystal clear and I can frolic about in it to my hearts content!

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

Once again, do we really have a choice? 

 

Yes, though our choices are necessarily limited by the methods that are available to us in our search. The historical Buddha demonstrated his dissatisfaction with the choices on offer to him, and created his own solution. 

 

1 hour ago, steve said:

I think the important point is recognizing what we can access and what supports us and to work with that, remaining open to new possibilities as we move along the path.

 

 

[dawn90]

45 minutes ago, Bindi said:

my way is indeed to work with the leaves and branches because I believe it is impossible to work with the root first, but but I still aim to end up at the root. 

 

I think you're right: I see opening the top of the house; if I may say so, as a safety mechanism in case more out of the root gets released too early.

You open the root first.

In my estimation that could lead to mistakes being fatal, as they would smash against a rooftop that can't handle it.

 

So I'd say the top of the tree first; yeah, I think you're right.

 

Imagien if you lost your head. You'd lose everything - even the capacity to write; we'd never know about you again no no: protect the head and you have a chance. I've been doing the same, great synchronicity.

[dawn90]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

I appreciate your sincerity.

 

Glad it's appreciated.

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by dawn90

[dawn90]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

It's always right here, waiting for you to drop into it. It has never been anywhere or anytime else

 

You're putting on the coat. Aren't you?

The subtle body? It's in you.

 

Lairg mentioned it as a blue hue or shadow and it reminded me of the blue aura is it possible that your subtle body and mine and Lairg's and probably others is of the blue quality and isn't necessarily the same in others?

We haven't discussed this and I sense this isn't the time yet to get to that point as it would lead to a great realization but everybody in this forum has sensed it: there's a wordwide phenomenon bigger than all of us taking place and we're all too scared to talk about it openly; I'm not going to get into it any further, lets wait til it happens and the coat is certainly on. Then we'll talk about it.

But it certainly is happening.

[dawn90]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

I remember the search, the excitement, the drama of far away places, and strange ritual. The DaVinci Code is a well-worn path. It's absolutely attractive! That's the point! If it is what you are driven to do, do it.. but KNOW there is a way out that embraces the simplicity that (maybe?) whispers to you in quiet moments. 

 

I appreciate you not lying to me. I offer you the same reciprocity.

 

Now, see; that's where you don't know me.

I hate drama.

And the simple path is my path; that's why I speak in a straighforward and simple way, no way do I use complicated words I like to be understood easily, to communicate my thoughts in a well-grounded way.

[Mark Foote]

 

The "here" is the location of self-awareness.  Unless a person has damaged the organs involved in locating awareness, they perceive the awareness identified with consciousness to be at a singular location in space (perceiving oneself to be in two places in space simultaneously is called "heautoscopy", very rare in the medical annals). 

 

The "now" part, in my experience, is really an enfolding of the senses and what lies beyond the senses in the here, a continuous incorporation.  "People who are moving around outside all sit with you", said Kobun:  "They don’t take the sitting posture!"

Dogen said:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

(“Genjo Koan”, Dogen; tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi.)
 

 

So that's the here (the place where I am) and the now (informing the place where I am), and one more thing (along the lines of "seated meditation is not holding still").  

Ji, chi, shen.  Father, son, holy spirit.  Something like that?  Les’see:  leaves and stem, root, … ?

Edited June 2, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Bindi]

2 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

The "here" is the location of self-awareness.  Unless a person has damaged the organs involved in locating awareness, they perceive the awareness identified with consciousness to be at a singular location in space (perceiving oneself to be in two places in space simultaneously is called "heautoscopy", very rare in the medical annals). 

 

The "now" part, in my experience, is really an enfolding of the senses and what lies beyond the senses in the here, a continuous incorporation.  "People who are moving around outside all sit with you", said Kobun:  "They don’t take the sitting posture!"

Dogen said:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point. When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point… Although actualized immediately, the inconceivable may not be apparent.

(“Genjo Koan”, Dogen; tr. Robert Aitken and Kazuaki Tanahashi.)
 

 

So that's the here (the place where I am) and the now (informing the place where I am), and one more thing (along the lines of "seated meditation is not holding still").  

Ji, chi, shen.  Father, son, holy spirit.  Something like that?  Les’see:  leaves and stems, roots, … ?

Ji, chi, shen. 

Yes, that’s one way to put it, also LDT, MDT, UDT. 
 

Father, son, holy spirit.

 

But isn’t the only way to the Father through the son, therefore the only way to the roots is through the stems? 

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Ji, chi, shen. 

Yes, that’s one way to put it, also LDT, MDT, UDT. 
 

Father, son, holy spirit.

 

But isn’t the only way to the Father through the son, therefore the only way to the roots is through the stems? 

imo:

UDT - Father;

LDT - son;

MDT - Holy Spirit.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Cobie

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

... after a spontaneous experience of nonduality a person might choose a nondual method specifically to re-experience that state, another might have a nondual experience and accept that it was a taste of things to come but not an invitation to try and grasp it repeatedly. Others might fool themselves into obtaining a mental approximation of nonduality after reading the literature, but as I tried to demonstrate earlier this belief system can be shown to be shallow if/when the body starts to fail.  

 

This thread has created a new term in my spiritual vocabulary - 

dualsplaining - when someone lacking experience in nondual realization and practice explains it to others who live and practice with it, refusing to consider the validity of their perspective 

[old3bob]

 

There is that saying that turns a common idea around in that: "we are spirit having a human experience" 

[old3bob]

a human looking within via a mask or a spirit looking out via a mask...

 

[old3bob]

having worked for many years in a power plant part of our job was to synchronize individual generators to the main power buss; and in doing so we had to get the frequency and voltage of the independent generator very close to the main buss before joining  or connecting them together which if  done incorrectly could cause relative disaster,  anyway without the main buss (sometimes called an infinite buss) to stabilize the independent unit it could not stay connected and become one with the main buss... 

Edited June 7, 2022 by old3bob

[mrpasserby]

15 hours ago, stirling said:

 

At this point a beyond that is any-place or any-time else is obviously just getting lost, which isn't to say I didn't enjoy hanging out at Gloucester Place with the Theosophists, or in Crowborough with the Rosicrucians in the 90's, or piecing together my own cosmological tomes of theories that "resonated" with me. 

 

I can see auras, spectral monks, and dead people. It doesn't lead anywhere. The questions lead to more questions and don't tell you anything about the nature of reality. 

 

None of this is at all complicated. The complication, the mysteries, the standing stones, the prophesies etc. are fun, but really just entangled paths in a forest that lead nowhere.

 

As Manitou says, sagely, it is really just about stopping. Being still. Looking at what is here right now, in this moment. 

 

This is my personal experience.

Transcendence!