Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[liminal_luke]

Spoiler

Blue Moles

 

1
They're out of the dark's ragbag, these two
Moles dead in the pebbled rut,
Shapeless as flung gloves, a few feet apart —-
Blue suede a dog or fox has chewed.
One, by himself, seemed pitiable enough,
Little victim unearthed by some large creature
From his orbit under the elm root.
The second carcass makes a duel of the affair:
Blind twins bitten by bad nature.

The sky's far dome is sane a clear.
Leaves, undoing their yellow caves
Between the road and the lake water,
Bare no sinister spaces. Already
The moles look neutral as the stones.
Their corkscrew noses, their white hands
Uplifted, stiffen in a family pose.
Difficult to imagine how fury struck —-
Dissolved now, smoke of an old war.

2
Nightly the battle-snouts start up
In the ear of the veteran, and again
I enter the soft pelt of the mole.
Light's death to them: they shrivel in it.
They move through their mute rooms while I sleep,
Palming the earth aside, grubbers
After the fat children of root and rock.
By day, only the topsoil heaves.
Down there one is alone.

Outsize hands prepare a path,
They go before: opening the veins,
Delving for the appendages
Of beetles, sweetbreads, shards — to be eaten
Over and over. And still the heaven
Of final surfeit is just as far
From the door as ever. What happens between us
Happens in darkness, vanishes
Easy and often as each breath

 

Sylvia Plath

 

I'm not sure I understand this poem but it gives me a blue and vaguely nondual feeling.

 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

yes, one of those jumped into my hands, I tried kissing it but it did not transform into a prince, instead it jumped back into the pond and left me with a slimy layer on my hands.

Following the advice of my teacher I have not attached much importance to it.

 

 

Forgive me for being dense, but do you mean you experienced a nondual state, which your teacher advised you to not attach too much importance to? 

[stirling]

3 hours ago, Lairg said:

A reasonable definition but still human-centric

 

Imagine that the solar system has its own karma.  Many of the kingdoms of Creation/Existence need to participate in the learning process.  And some kingdoms take longer than others to learn

 

For example the mineral kingdom on Earth was in pain for some billions of years before it decided to move on - in about 2017 - and all because it did not like the current entity being in the position of Planetary Logos

 

Pure curiosity: What makes you think that? In the case of compassion coming from Prajna, suffering is really ONLY caused by the delusion of believing in the illusion of separateness. Therefore, (to the best of my knowledge) appearances in consciousness that are not under such a delusion aren't suffering.

 

You say some wonderfully colorful things (makes me miss LSD, honestly) but how do you quantify such intimations? Are you a dowser or sensitive by any chance? Is there some source material for these ideas?

 

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

suffering is really ONLY caused by the delusion of believing in the illusion of separateness.

 

The suffering of children is often caused not by their illusion but rather that of their parents.

 

What human suffering might be caused by the illusions of the Planetary Logos?

Does every proposition need a context?   

 

2 hours ago, stirling said:

how do you quantify such intimations? Are you a dowser or sensitive by any chance? Is there some source material for these ideas?

 

You can certainly find accounts but not details of planetary and solar systemic karma.  Mainly I stick with my own observations

 

https://firethebeacon.com/2018/04/24/karma/

 

 

https://www.lucistrust.org/online_books/a_treatise_on_cosmic_fire_obooks/section_two_the_fire_mind_solar_fire/division_thought_elementals_and_fire_elementals/ii_thought_elementals_and_devas/3_the_solar_angels_the_agnishvattas_part3

 

I quite like dowsing - and I test propositions on the inner planes but that requires some skills and permissions and is best done with peer review

 

Edited June 4, 2022 by Lairg

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, dawn90 said:

 

The non-dualist believes that cultivation of energy is enough to get to atma that it'll work out once in contact with ones higher energies.

 

All answers will arrive. I don't believe that; I believe that cultivation of energy has to fill inside a well thought and determined space that is cultivated through ones attunement to morals and values.

 

So what it really comes down to; is do you value morals - or not.

 

“As to this... right view comes first. And how... does right view come first? If one comprehends that wrong purpose is wrong purpose and comprehends that right purpose is right purpose, that is... right view. And what... is wrong purpose? Purpose for sense-pleasures, purpose for ill-will, purpose for harming. This... is wrong purpose. And what... is right purpose? Now I... say that right purpose is twofold. There is... the right purpose that has cankers, is on the side of merit, and ripens unto cleaving (to new birth). There is... the right purpose which is [noble], cankerless, supermundane, a factor of the Way. And what... is the purpose which is on the side of merit, and ripens unto cleaving? Purpose for renunciation, purpose for non-ill-will, purpose for non-harming. This... is right purpose that... ripens unto cleaving. And what... is the right purpose that is [noble], cankerless, supermundane, a component of the Way? Whatever... is reasoning, initial thought, purpose, an activity of speech through the complete focusing and application of the mind in one who, by developing the [noble] Way, is of [noble] thought, of cankerless thought, and is conversant with the [noble] Way–this... is right purpose that is [noble], cankerless, supermundane, a component of the Way.”

 

(MN III 71-78, Vol III pg 113-121)

 

 

Gautama the Shakyan taught in that manner frequently.  If you weren't already established in "the [noble] way", you were stuck with something that "ripens unto cleaving".

But I think it's clear that being moral because it's the good and meritorious thing to do was a path leading to attachment ("cleaving"), and to suffering.  There was another way, according to the Gautamid.

"Let not the left hand know what the right hand does", isn't that the way it goes?

 

[blue eyed snake]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

Forgive me for being dense, but do you mean you experienced a nondual state, which your teacher advised you to not attach too much importance to? 

-

I don't think you're dense at all

 

 yes, as Sifu told us not to compare notes, not to think strange experiences and such are important in any way. But to write them down and read up later and see how you were amiss with your musings about it. Never told him btw, had I done so he probably would have responded with, 'funny isn't it' or something like that. It is quite funny really.

 

It's like the tadpole growing little legs, losing tail and climbing onto dry land,  just development.

 

Not attainment, no blessing ( nor curse). That tiny frog feels like this is an amazing experience but it'll take a long time before it's grown into an adult frog. Also, although the adult frog can be on dry land for considerable time, it still needs water.

 

 

 

well, this is how it looks to this cranky old lady 

 

 

 

[dawn90]

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

But I think it's clear that being moral because it's the good and meritorious thing to do was a path leading to attachment ("cleaving"), and to suffering.  There was another way, according to the Gautamid.

 

I don't share that view, maybe he meant. That you're supposed to find a way not to suffer walking along the rightful path, and that leads to realization - I'm not sure about your interpretation because even the non-dual path is rife with suffering doubts contrary to what they might profess otherwise they wouldn't be posting down here would they? They'd be realized; and you can sense: doubt, inquietness. The will to debate, very dual things so as far as I'm concerned the non-verbal language of our friends the non-dualists here doesn't exactly convince me they've attained anything anywhere what they profess to have attained - you can sense the search.

So; that's my view.

 

@Lairg just out of curiosity because you seem to be knowledgeable about these things, what is. In your opinion the dominant aura color that Gautama would0ve been carrying, I know it changes; but as far as my understanding goes there's such a thing as a more permanent aura deeply embeded in the individual an "inner" aura.

Blue seems to come to mind.

[stirling]

On 6/3/2022 at 2:56 PM, dawn90 said:

The non-dualist believes that cultivation of energy is enough to get to atma that it'll work out once in contact with ones higher energies.

All answers will arrive. I don't believe that; I believe that cultivation of energy has to fill inside a well thought and determined space that is cultivated through ones attunement to morales and values.

So what it really comes down to; is do you value morales - or not.

 

Do you care? The non-dualist might say it's irrelevant. Or.

The higher self will know what to do. it's incorporated in it (atma).

 

In resume, the non-dualist puts his whole trust in the energy within him and the dualist believes you have to do something with it.

The body serves the mind; or the mind serves the body. (dualist; non-dualist).

 

My work has been almost entirely in Buddhist schools, and cultivation of this type was not something I have ever practiced and was entirely unnecessary to gain non-dual insight. If there as a practice that mattered it would be simply resting in the non-dual nature of mind in Zazen/Dzogchen until there was a moment where I realized what it was. Generating bodhicitta, and practices to break down self-cherishing definitely made me accident prone, but no practices precipitated understanding. This is my experience.

[stirling]

23 hours ago, Lairg said:

The suffering of children is often caused not by their illusion but rather that of their parents.

 

What human suffering might be caused by the illusions of the Planetary Logos?

Does every proposition need a context?   

 

 

You can certainly find accounts but not details of planetary and solar systemic karma.  Mainly I stick with my own observations

 

https://firethebeacon.com/2018/04/24/karma/

 

 

https://www.lucistrust.org/online_books/a_treatise_on_cosmic_fire_obooks/section_two_the_fire_mind_solar_fire/division_thought_elementals_and_fire_elementals/ii_thought_elementals_and_devas/3_the_solar_angels_the_agnishvattas_part3

 

I quite like dowsing - and I test propositions on the inner planes but that requires some skills and permissions and is best done with peer review

 

Wow... that was a rabbit hole! Thanks for that. Good fun. I have a soft spot for this kind of material... it's so colorful, complex and cosmological!

 

So, Alice Bailey seems like a Crowley-style character, or much like my experiences with the Theosophist materials. It's interesting, but the "Tibetan's" material doesn't really bear any relation to Tibetan Buddhism or the Bon traditions which I am quite familiar with... looks more like something someone (Bailey?) put together. A Tibetan Buddhist preparing men for the return of the Christ? It would be seen as nonsense by any realized Buddhist. Is the Tibetan secretly Crowley? 

 

I am most interested in this:

 

Quote

The first of these seven purposes is "the unknown, unseen and unheard purpose of Sanat Kumara. It is the secret of life itself...known only to Him....It is that which veils the central mystery which all esoteric schools--if true to their inaugurating impulse--will eventually reveal." 

 

What would you envisage this secret might be? The real Tibetan secrets (or any Buddhist school)  are always in plain sight. 

 

Kumara is a theosophy chap, isn't he? Why hasn't someone made a cool 19th century drama about all of this with magical realist undertones? I'd pay to see it. 

 

[Lairg]

>Alice Bailey seems like a Crowley-style character

It seems that you have not read much in that area.  

 

> the "Tibetan's" material doesn't really bear any relation to Tibetan Buddhism or the Bon traditions

 

Quite so.  He was apparently responsible for much of the Blavatsky material - giving her a vision of documents were no longer extant, and providing a lot of telepathic input.  Similarly for Bailey and quite a number of more recent writers

 

> Is the Tibetan secretly Crowley?

Is that a serious question?  Compare their content and writing styles!

 

>The real Tibetan secrets (or any Buddhist school)  are always in plain sight.

Perhaps the planet has moved on.

 

Sanat Kumara is not a human - and does not originate in this galaxy.  I think you have much to discover.

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Lairg

[Lairg]

3 hours ago, dawn90 said:

In your opinion the dominant aura color that Gautama would0ve been carrying, ...

Blue seems to come to mind.

 

When I look at Gautama just now I see primarily gold with blue and violet at the top and a line of red right at the very bottom where he interfaces with Earth humanity.  It seems an uncomfortable interface but duty calls

[dawn90]

46 minutes ago, Lairg said:

When I look at Gautama

 

Is it the same, with Jesus Christ?

[Lairg]

Gautama was/is an historic figure.  Jesus the Christed One is a bit more difficult as, for example, the crucifixion with eclipse astronomically puts the event at around 1000 AD - unless of course it was not in Palestine

 

Further, why was it necessary to pay 30 pieces of silver (enough for a commercial clay deposit)  to identify a man who had been preaching in public for 3 years?

 

I rather think the view of Jesus is a composite.  

[stirling]

11 hours ago, Lairg said:

>Alice Bailey seems like a Crowley-style character

It seems that you have not read much in that area.  

 

I mean that there are a plethora of influences and traditions pulled in, not that she was LIKE Crowley personally.

 

Quote

 

> the "Tibetan's" material doesn't really bear any relation to Tibetan Buddhism or the Bon traditions

 

Quite so.  He was apparently responsible for much of the Blavatsky material - giving her a vision of documents were no longer extant, and providing a lot of telepathic input.  Similarly for Bailey and quite a number of more recent writers

 

 

Ah. I thought the name sounded familiar!

 

Quote

 

> Is the Tibetan secretly Crowley?

Is that a serious question?  Compare their content and writing styles!

 

 

Wondering aloud really. He was a mountaineer and climbed in the Himalayas many times. 

 

Quote

 

>The real Tibetan secrets (or any Buddhist school)  are always in plain sight.

Perhaps the planet has moved on.

 

 

The planet wouldn't be a factor. The "secrets" are timeless.

 

Quote

Sanat Kumara is not a human - and does not originate in this galaxy.  I think you have much to discover.

 

Sorry, unskillful language there. I mean that he featured in Theosophist materials too, if I recall. 

[manitou]

On 6/2/2022 at 4:13 PM, Bindi said:

Whenever I suggest nondual perspective is a choice you react. Manitou can say she has to remember to dive down through the conditioning, which implies making a choice, but you are very defensive when I suggest you are making the same choice. 

 

 

I may have used the wrong terminology here, Bindi.  For me to have said 'dive' indicates an action.  That's not quite right, I was speaking more metaphorically. It's a dropping, an allowing.  Allowing the conditioning to disperse so that the clarity can be experienced and recognized.  I'm almost seeing enlightenment as a physical thing, like a switch in the brain which toggles when needed for clarity, for answers, for seeing reality.  Reality isn't a particular set of conditions.  It's the is-ness, the one-ness of all life.  It is total acceptance of what is. 

 

Our condition on this planet is to ride two horses, for some reason.  To be born into the world of duality, illusion, stories, writing our own story which we mistake as reality.  Perhaps our mission, should we decide to accept it, is to tear off the mask of duality and experience the is-ness as reality.  In the DDJ it makes reference to the Dao treating us as straw dogs.  As we are all one entity in different skin bags with different conditioning, does it really matter at what point we live or die, and in what manner?  That thing inside us that 'doesn't move and doesn't age' is the real You.  All else is of the Head, and it's the head that gets us into trouble when it leads to separation of ourselves from others.

 

I woke up this morning realizing that I was a verb.  I am not a noun, I am not Barbara, separate from Bindi.  I should like to change my name to Pleasant Experience, if I didn't know it would confuse the pension department.  A Pleasant Experience is what we can all be, whether we are experiencing the company of another, or washing our car.  We can turn the car washing into a pleasant experience if we want, or we can also look at it from the point of view of the car!  It's happy to get washed!  One big pleasant experience.  One big verb!  As I was walking the dogs this morning, I saw that someone hadn't picked up their dog poop in the green belt.  I picked it up for them.  I created a Pleasant Experience for future dog walkers, who would probably have walked home fuming about the person who didn't pick up their dog poop.

 

I'm not speaking of people-pleasing here.  That's a horrible state to be in, stemming from insecurity.  Instead, Pleasant Experience stems from total acceptance of everything and everyone, every condition.  No judgment, to the very best of our ability (that ramification of enlightenment is a lifelong process, we just get better and better at it), no opinion, no thinking of someone else as lesser than you or greater than you, loving your brother as yourself (doesn't mean you have to take in every homeless person you come across, but to not fear the moment when one of those situations is presented, and to act in the way that Clarity tells you to - whether that's to give a few bucks or just smile as you pass by).

 

I've always had this undercurrent of fear inside me, stemming from who knows what.  It manifests as a tendency toward anti-socialism, staying apart from people, mentally (and subtly) pushing people away.  Sometimes pretending that I don't see them, sometimes purposely turning a corner so I don't have to socially interact with them.  I realized just this morning how very subtle this is, as I was about to turn a corner before having to say good morning to someone else.  How ridiculous!

 

Pleasant Experience doesn't have to do that any more!  Pleasant Experience can realize that it's all one big huge experience that the Dao, for some inexplicable reason, has rigged up for itself.  We're just a tiny cog.  The sooner we realize that Things Just Is is the sooner we find the peace of heart we're really looking for.

[manitou]

On 6/2/2022 at 5:14 PM, Lairg said:

 

I have had some experiences that indicate that during the mahapralaya there is only Beingness and eventually Beingness decides to experience separated Existence.

 

Spirit and matter, intelligences and universes thus are manifested for a purpose and apparent dualities arise.  For example humans see spirit and matter as a duality.  

 

Does the Is-ness of humans emerge in Beingness or Existence?  

 

If in Beingness then the Is-ness of humans is always non-dual.  

 

 

This is a good point, but recall that the action of the Dao is reversion.  For some reason it seems to want to take a back dive and return to self, the Oneness of Beingness.

[stirling]

17 minutes ago, manitou said:

I woke up this morning realizing that I was a verb.  I am not a noun, I am not Barbara, separate from Bindi.  I should like to change my name to Pleasant Experience, if I didn't know it would confuse the pension department.  A Pleasant Experience is what we can all be, whether we are experiencing the company of another, or washing our car.  We can turn the car washing into a pleasant experience if we want, or we can also look at it from the point of view of the car!  It's happy to get washed!  One big pleasant experience.  One big verb!  As I was walking the dogs this morning, I saw that someone hadn't picked up their dog poop in the green belt.  I picked it up for them.  I created a Pleasant Experience for future dog walkers, who would probably have walked home fuming about the person who didn't pick up their dog poop.

 

I'm not speaking of people-pleasing here.  That's a horrible state to be in, stemming from insecurity.  Instead, Pleasant Experience stems from total acceptance of everything and everyone, every condition.  No judgment, to the very best of our ability (that ramification of enlightenment is a lifelong process, we just get better and better at it), no opinion, no thinking of someone else as lesser than you or greater than you, loving your brother as yourself (doesn't mean you have to take in every homeless person you come across, but to not fear the moment when one of those situations is presented, and to act in the way that Clarity tells you to - whether that's to give a few bucks or just smile as you pass by).

 

This is what a living breathing bodhisattva looks like in the world. This is what "enlightened activity" IS. Beautiful. The world needs more Barbaras. Become a Barbara. Make this your aspiration, Bhikkus!

 

(...I wish I could but I suspect becoming a Barbara this far into my marriage might be more of a transition than my wife would appreciate.)

[manitou]

8 minutes ago, stirling said:

..I wish I could but I suspect becoming a Barbara this far into my marriage might be more of a transition than my wife would appreciate.)

 

 

LOL.  What, she has no sense of humor??

[doc benway]

2 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

LOL.  What, she has no sense of humor??

... or adventure?!

[natural]

Although I am a bit long in the tooth I take great pride in both my sense of adventure as well as humor. 

But trust me a sex change ain't in the cards for Moi.

[liminal_luke]

I think we need a new pronoun for awakened people. How do you refer to someone whose Self is as big as the universe and smaller than a grain of sand?  He/She and even the ever-controversial They don't cut it for the Pleasant Experiences of the world.  May I suggest Wow.

 

Used in a sentence....

 

Has anybody seen Wow around?

Edited June 5, 2022 by liminal_luke

[natural]

3 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I think we need a new pronoun for awakened people.  He/She and even the ever-controversial They don't cut it for the Pleasant Experiences of the world.  May I suggest Wow

 

Used in a sentence....

 

Has anybody seen Wow around?

I may not have seen it around, nor acknowledged it the moment : ( But my first encounter with a Manatee in the water in a river was a WOW)

[old3bob]

"awesome" is what all the kids (some young & some old) are walking around saying ;-)

[old3bob]

besides the original Christian dualistic like context of this painting about the creation of Adam I think it could also allude to the idea that it takes two to return to a non-dualistic one,  with both reaching out and then joining together.

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by old3bob

[natural]

35 minutes ago, old3bob said:

"awesome" is what all the kids (some young & some old) are walking around saying ;-)

 

Shocked seems more applicable in my experience?