Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[blue eyed snake]

40 minutes ago, dwai said:

we think of ourselves as limited (miserable) beings who are caught in a cycle of

 

 

talk for yourself please, I've never thought that

 

 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Do we disidentify with all the physical and emotional and mental and karmic, or specifically with the notion of being the actor with respect to these things, of being able to act (out of will) with respect to these things in a manner that doesn't leave a residue to be dealt with in the future?

And what has that got to do with the central channel, if I may?

Yes probably that, I am not the actor, emotions and thoughts happen but I am not the actor or the director, I am the witness perhaps. To me emotions and thoughts, maybe body identification and karma as well, are functions of the two subtle side channels, when flowing freely they are perfect duality in action, the Yin and Yang operating perfectly together, but instead of no-self after separating from these as sense of self I suspect the sense of I instead becomes established in the central channel, and this channel is the realm of alchemy, it’s where earth and heaven can meet, it’s where the ‘immortal’ body is created, not as a thing to be disassociated from, maybe more as a vehicle for consciousness after death, though I know far less about the central channel than the two side channels for now. 
 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

My personal experience says otherwise, though there are plenty of non-Sam Harris based science experiments that DO demonstrate this point, not that they are ultimately relevant: 

 

https://www.wired.com/2008/04/mind-decision/

 

If you want to take this apart, meditation is the place to look, and learning to see the skandhas arise (which I just posted about) is ironically, the practice I would recommend.

what does your personal experience tell you about this?

[ralis]

16 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

talk for yourself please, I've never thought that

 

 

‘Today is the 78th anniversary of the invasion of Normandy, June 6th 1944. I want to see the purveyors of no self no fear run headlong onto Omaha Beach and see what cold hard reality feels like.  That’s what sheer terror is!

[old3bob]

crushing doubt, and or hanging by a thread and panicking is related to fear.

[natural]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

‘Today is the 78th anniversary of the invasion of Normandy, June 6th 1944. I want to see the purveyors of no self no fear run headlong onto Omaha Beach and see what cold hard reality feels like.  That’s what sheer terror is!

 

My father's cousin landed that day and refused to comment on that or any other of his service for the USA for that matter any of his experience in WW11.

 

My father landed in Japan following our horrific bombing there he too was reluctant recount  what he saw...

[stirling]

19 minutes ago, Apech said:

what does your personal experience tell you about this?

 

The illusion of choice is something that occurs as part of the mind's dialog AFTER things change. The "self" has no agency.

 

There are ultimately only unlabeled phenomena happening now. Phenomena are impermanent and change constantly in awareness. There is no observable agency in awareness making phenomena change. Awareness just is.

 

This was all dissolved initially in meditation, but is plainly visible now. 

 

What does your personal experience tell you?

Edited June 6, 2022 by stirling

[Mark Foote]

25 minutes ago, ralis said:

‘Today is the 78th anniversary of the invasion of Normandy, June 6th 1944. I want to see the purveyors of no self no fear run headlong onto Omaha Beach and see what cold hard reality feels like.  That’s what sheer terror is!
 

Be like that, Ralis!  Now we know how badly the Allies miscalculated everything about that invasion, how many lives were lost that probably didn't have to be.

I have a friend whose father was a Marine in the Pacific.  Turns out a lot of those islands didn't have to be taken from the Japanese, in particular Peleliu, where my friend's father fought.  He came back a pacifist.  

I think dwai is right, one doesn't necessarily feel the terror in the situation.  PTSD, though, big time.


 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

2 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The illusion of choice is something that occurs as part of the mind's dialog AFTER things change. The "self" has no agency.

 

There are ultimately only unlabeled phenomena happening now. Phenomena are impermanent and change constantly in awareness. There is no observable agency in awareness making phenomena change. Awareness just is.

 

There is an agency, and it can be observed the same as the phenomena you reference.  That's why Hakuin included the hands and feet in the quote I cited earlier ("to learn who uses the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body and moves the hands and feet").

Walking along hand in hand with Wu Tsu, Yuanwu's teacher.  Just sayin'!

[natural]

11 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Be like that, Ralis!  Now we know how badly the Allies miscalculated everything about that invasion, how many lives were lost that probably didn't have to be.

I have a friend whose father was a Marine in the Pacific.  Turns out a lot of those islands didn't have to be taken from the Japanese, in particular Peleliu, where my friend's father fought.  He came back a pacifist.  

I think dwai is right, one doesn't necessarily feel they terror of the  PTSD, big time.


 

 

Well as we know now:

 

1. War is hell!

2. Hindsight is 20 20 for all the good that did the children in Texas.... or the many other victims of these horrific atrocities occuring almost daily!

3. One almost certainly feels terror in the moment until the enter shock and later experience PTSD.

Edited June 6, 2022 by natural

[Mark Foote]

4 minutes ago, natural said:

 

3. One almost certainly feels terror in the moment until the enter shock and later experience PTSD.

 

Terror in the anticipation, sure.  Not so sure terror is the feeling at the moment when life is actually on the line.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Mark Foote

[natural]

Just now, Mark Foote said:

Terror in the anticipation, sure.  Not sure about when the life is actually on the line.

 

Terror is not a switch, one can turn on and off at will.

Anticipation adds to the terror for sure, and can create focus on in the here and now.

I  been there trust me on this.

[stirling]

20 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

There is an agency, and it can be observed the same as the phenomena you reference.  That's why Hakuin included the hands and feet in the quote I cited earlier ("to learn who uses the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body and moves the hands and feet").

Walking along hand in hand with Wu Tsu, Yuanwu's teacher.  Just sayin'!

 

Quote

Agency: "a thing or person that acts to produce a particular result."

 

I would consider these ideas:

 

If ""all things are empty of intrinsic existence and nature", who would have agency?

 

If you could witness that your agency was illusory (or that reality existed entirely WITHOUT agents/subjects) why would you imagine that other appearances in consciousness possessed agency?

 

Under what conditions would it be possible to witness the actions of another and be sure that they possess agency of their own?

 

Quote

Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found.

The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there. 

Nibbaana is, but not the man that enters it.

The path is, but no traveller on it is seen. - Visuddhimagga

 

 

 

Quote

No doer of the deeds is found,

No being that may reap their fruits. 

Empty phenomena roll on!

This is the only right view. - Visuddhimagga

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by stirling

[Apech]

27 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

The illusion of choice is something that occurs as part of the mind's dialog AFTER things change. The "self" has no agency.

 

There are ultimately only unlabeled phenomena happening now. Phenomena are impermanent and change constantly in awareness. There is no observable agency in awareness making phenomena change. Awareness just is.

 

This was all dissolved initially in meditation, but is plainly visible now. 

 

What does your personal experience tell you?

No observable agency to who?

 

My personal experience tells me that volition and awareness are indistinguishable.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

talk for yourself please, I've never thought that

 

 

I didn't mean that everyone thinks like that all the time. Most people suffer because they discover the limitations of their body/mind/intellect etc and thus they are dissatisfied (which over a prolonged period of time, gives rise to suffering). Their misery (dukkha) is interspersed with momentary pleasures. That is life for I would say 90% of the people. Would you disagree?

[natural]

2 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

 

I would consider these ideas:

 

If ""all things are empty of intrinsic existence and nature", who would have agency?

 

If you could witness that your agency was illusory (or that reality existed entirely WITHOUT agents/subjects) why would you imagine that other appearances in consciousness possessed agency?

 

Under what conditions would it be possible to witness the actions of another and be sure that they possess agency of their own?

 

"Under what conditions would it be possible to witness the actions of another and be sure that they possess agency of their own?

Preventing assault or injury to me would be a proper start.

[stirling]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

No observable agency to who?

 

To anyone who sees that all appearances lack intrinsic awareness of their own.

 

Quote

My personal experience tells me that volition and awareness are indistinguishable.

 

WHO does the volition/will/agency belong to? What exists that has intrinsic existence?

[ralis]

21 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Terror in the anticipation, sure.  Not so sure terror is the feeling at the moment when life is actually on the line.

‘Terror and fear go together. Have you been in that type of situation?

[ralis]

4 minutes ago, natural said:

 

"Under what conditions would it be possible to witness the actions of another and be sure that they possess agency of their own?

Preventing assault or injury to me would be a proper start.

Many talk on this forum with no experience of being faced with threatening situations. 

[CozySpace]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

Many talk on this forum with no experience of being faced with threatening situations. 

I had to deal with a raccoon in my back yard. I bet no one can top that.

[ralis]

One point to consider is that certain individuals with mental, organic, and brain damage will not know fear. Meditation or any practice will not be a solution. 

[natural]

As a famous boxer said everyone has a plan until they don't 

 

1 minute ago, CozySpace said:

I had to deal with a raccoon in my back yard. I bet no one can top that.

Jeez I been bit or chawed on and argued with more critters than I can enumerate, lol. 

And I have the scars to prove it! LOL

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, CozySpace said:

I had to deal with a raccoon in my back yard. I bet no one can top that.

A formidable opponent for certain. Especially, with young ones around. 
 

I

[stirling]

Many talk on this forum with no experience of being faced with threatening situations. 

Not sure if this is pointed at me, but you are welcome to address me directly.

 

(sorry... can't seem to edit this to say "Ralis" rather than "Natural")

Edited June 6, 2022 by stirling

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, CozySpace said:

I had to deal with a raccoon in my back yard. I bet no one can top that.

I have a friend whom raccoons love apparently. He talks to them lovingly, gives them food, and protects them. They bring him gifts (acorns and such) and don't mess with his home. Not everything has to be a battle.