Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[blue eyed snake]

22 hours ago, dwai said:

I didn't mean that everyone thinks like that all the time. Most people suffer because they discover the limitations of their body/mind/intellect etc and thus they are dissatisfied (which over a prolonged period of time, gives rise to suffering). Their misery (dukkha) is interspersed with momentary pleasures. That is life for I would say 90% of the people. Would you disagree?

 

cannot talk for 90% of the people, but people I have known are mostly not feeling they are miserable beings, yes moments of pleasure and moments of pain/ feelings of inadequacy alternate but that is just as life is. As long as there is balance between joy and suffering people cope alright. 

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

cannot talk for 90% of the people, but people I have known are mostly not feeling they are miserable beings, yes moments of pleasure and moments of pain/ feelings of inadequacy alternate but that is just as life is. As long as there is balance between joy and suffering people cope alright. 

I think that is what leads to "misery" - because people want things to go the way they would like things to go. They don't accept the comings and goings of things/events/feelings of "good" and "not good". There is an inherent resistance to the departure of the "good" and aversion towards the "not good". This is what The Buddha called "dukkha/vedana". A perpetual state of discontentment/dissatisfaction that becomes a chronic cycle of craving and aversion. "Coping" alright might be the case on the surface, but dig a bit deeper, and all these things are building up, little by little for most people I encounter. If it was any different, people would be happier across the world, and there would be far less conflict and suffering. That is not the case, and has not been so in the past few hundred years at least. 

[ralis]

1 hour ago, steve said:

I’ve encountered some wonderful people at Bön retreats and some people who are in a lot of pain and looking for help. There can be some big egos and some tiny ones. Some are a bit eccentric, not unlike this community. Overall I find sanghas to be a microcosm of humanity though skewed towards people actively looking to help or improve themselves and grow. The genuine and dedicated practitioners do tend to be very open, loving, and powerful people though they also tend to be quiet and rarely in the spotlight. 
 

I suggest that what we think we know about others is more a projection of our own assumptions and expectations than anything related to who they really are (speaking here in a relative sense).

 

I also suggest that we sometimes overlook the Two Truths doctrine in our discussions about nonduality here. The absolute perspective is very real for those who have access. The relative perspective is no less real for those who do not. Both are valid and deserving of respect and acknowledgement. We have no choice but to live and work with what we can access. Highly advisable to keep an open mind as this can change at any time.

 

 

 

I look at their actions with no projections whatsoever. Yes, there are some good people, but religion can and will bring out the worst!

[ralis]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Hokoji is a Soto Zen temple out in Arroyo Seco. The Abbot is Ian Forstner. He is worth meeting. He isn't putting on a show,  just a guy who builds houses and sees things as they are. It has been my great fortune to sit with him, and consult with him a number of times. There is a circle of the Trungpa chaps out there too that are certainly worth talking to. They are everywhere, really. 

 

The guys you are looking for don't usually promise you anything, and are generally kind and generous with their time. No big conferences or satsangs.

 

I have known a number of Trungpa devotees here in town and to be honest his abuses lost favor with many, including me.

 

I am not looking to find a guru or consult with anyone, but appreciate the sentiment. I stopped taking teachings shortly after the retreat with Norbu back in 1989. Guru Yoga practice fixed the search for a special teacher, rather quickly. Although, I found Keith Dowman's teachings worthwhile on one occasion.

 

Are you from Santa Fe?

 

Arroyo Seco South of Taos and not Arroyo Seco just outside of Santa Fe.

 

The natural world can be a great teacher. If one understands how to engage it.

Edited June 7, 2022 by ralis

[manitou]

11 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

I look at their actions with no projections whatsoever. Yes, there are some good people, but religion can and will bring out the worst!

 

 

I don't know if it's possible to look at, and make inferences, about another without projection from within.  That's the only way we can identify it, if it is contained within ourselves.  As to religions, many of us were dealt those when we came into this life.  I think people get into trouble when they set themselves up as experts and trade on this knowledge - either for financial profit or for emotional mileage.  They can stop growing, thinking they have all the answers.  This is when things get jammed up.

 

Religions are great for growth, until they're not.  The dogma needs to be shed at some point and the journey beyond involves learning to think with our own brains.  I see this as a process that sits somewhere between the transcension of the dogma and the entrance into nonduality.  The thing that's been outgrown, the religion, is seen for what it is, and sometimes that manifests itself as being quite ridiculous, once seen from a distance.  Sometimes it's just as simple as 'does that make any sense at all to my brain?'.  I think we were issued these things for this particular reason, to sort this out, and life takes us through all sorts of twists and turns in order to get there.

 

 

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

I don't know if it's possible to look at, and make inferences, about another without projection from within.  That's the only way we can identify it, if it is contained within ourselves.  As to religions, many of us were dealt those when we came into this life.  I think people get into trouble when they set themselves up as experts and trade on this knowledge - either for financial profit or for emotional mileage.  They can stop growing, thinking they have all the answers.  This is when things get jammed up.

 

Religions are great for growth, until they're not.  The dogma needs to be shed at some point and the journey beyond involves learning to think with our own brains.  I see this as a process that sits somewhere between the transcension of the dogma and the entrance into nonduality.  The thing that's been outgrown, the religion, is seen for what it is, and sometimes that manifests itself as being quite ridiculous, once seen from a distance.  Sometimes it's just as simple as 'does that make any sense at all to my brain?'.  I think we were issued these things for this particular reason, to sort this out, and life takes us through all sorts of twists and turns in order to get there.

 

 

 

Growing in the sense to get away from it. Tell the untold millions of devotees to wake up from it is a useless exercise. 

[Lairg]

3 minutes ago, manitou said:

I don't know if it's possible to look at, and make inferences, about another without projection from within.

 

The human's library of existing beliefs and images filters incoming thoughts. 

 

When I changed from science to economics I was amazed.   Many times each day I would start to act based on taught beliefs and would stop in amazement at the stupid things I believed.  I had a repeated sense of falling without  solid beliefs to hold me. 

 

That lasted 9 months - but a few years later I started the second round of discarding stupid beliefs. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

I look at their actions with no projections whatsoever. 

 

How sure do you feel about that?

In a sense, everything is a projection.

 

[ralis]

20 hours ago, steve said:

 

How sure do you feel about that?

In a sense, everything is a projection.

 

 

Why resort to gaslighting in the first sentence?
 

That is the Buddhist view. I was stating facts regarding gurus that are held in high esteem and worshiped by many. Many of whom turned out to be sexual abusers etc. Includes the Tibetan gurus. I think that non-dualism makes one passive even the the face of disaster. 

 

@silent thunder

 

You think sexual abuse is hilarious? 

Edited June 8, 2022 by ralis

[stirling]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

I have known a number of Trungpa devotees here in town and to be honest his abuses lost favor with many, including me.

 

Trungpa has been quite some time. It's fair to evaluate those left on their own terms, IMHO - but I do get your point.

 

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I am not looking to find a guru or consult with anyone, but appreciate the sentiment.

 

That's alright. I figured that out from our previous discussions. I was just saying that there are few good eggs in your neighborhood. 

 

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I stopped taking teachings shortly after the retreat with Norbu back in 1989. Guru Yoga practice fixed the search for a special teacher, rather quickly. 

 

There is a story I'd be interested to hear. I did my share of Guru Yoga, but not in immediate proximity to realization. It's surprisingly good stuff. 

 

Quote

Although, I found Keith Dowman's teachings worthwhile on one occasion.

 

Had to look him up. Probably is friendly with the first Dzogchen teacher I worked with, Ngakpa Chogyam . He is a Welshman in the Dudjom Rinpoche lineage - they seem to have a couple of the same teachers.

 

Quote

 

Are you from Santa Fe?

 

Arroyo Seco South of Taos and not Arroyo Seco just outside of Santa Fe.

 

 

Nah. Ian has lead many retreats at Jikoji, in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California. I practiced there for a number of years. 

 

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The natural world can be a great teacher. If one understands how to engage it.

 

Indeed! All appearances in consciousness have the Buddha's face.

[dawn90]

You know.

 

If you think about it.

 

I'd rather be abused in a dualistic society, as I'd at least have hope of being able to appeal to something. You know what I mean?

 

Because every piece of justice that's ever been made against the catolic church has been through catolic church doctrine.

You can't have justice without the idea of a good; and a bad.

You have good; and bad - and you know you have a chance of someone doing something.

The conspiracy is what you have to worry about.

But once that aside - you can do something.

Even from the left.

The logic; used. Is a right wing logic.

The church has established what's right and wrong and in some instances that logic has been used to even incarcerate them - so you see the glory of Jesus: people. Who couldn't care less about morals and values have been able to use - in this instance - that logic that the catolic church gave them in order to get justice where previously there wasn't justice.

 

You have both sides.

Either corrupt or uninterested - if you look at where they come from ideologically.

And justice has been made.

But no one is good enough, but the sword of god; which exists through the written law, which even the radical left can use, on occasion.

 

I don't see how the same thing could happen in non-dualistic circles: you'd be complaining - it wouldn't even get that far. Because, what are you complaining about: only verbs exist, and nouns.

They're the figment of your imagination.

You see verbs and you get through the truth and even better the illusion of suffering and injustice disapears as they all come from a misplaced belief in that the solid reality is real.

 

You'd play with your fingers and hope for a miracle.

But that might explain why in those circles these kinds of abuses are still rare or completely unheard of.

Because no voice exists that can express what happened - it stays, quiet.

Edited June 7, 2022 by dawn90

[liminal_luke]

...

Edited June 7, 2022 by liminal_luke

[ralis]

37 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Trungpa has been quite some time. It's fair to evaluate those left on their own terms, IMHO - but I do get your point.

 

 

That's alright. I figured that out from our previous discussions. I was just saying that there are few good eggs in your neighborhood. 

 

 

There is a story I'd be interested to hear. I did my share of Guru Yoga, but not in immediate proximity to realization. It's surprisingly good stuff. 

 

 

Had to look him up. Probably is friendly with the first Dzogchen teacher I worked with, Ngakpa Chogyam . He is a Welshman in the Dudjom Rinpoche lineage - they seem to have a couple of the same teachers.

 

 

Nah. Ian has lead many retreats at Jikoji, in the Santa Cruz Mountains of California. I practiced there for a number of years. 

 

 

Indeed! All appearances in consciousness have the Buddha's face.

It was the way Norbu taught Guru Yoga, or the way I practiced it. I always have experiences that are out of the box that no one else can figure out, which is why I rarely discuss it. 
 

Norbu was a radical contrarian back in the late 80’s when I met him. He taught in such a way that upset the apple  cart. A true outsider!

Edited June 7, 2022 by ralis

[stirling]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

`The experience associated with Gautama's enlightenment was the cessation of (volition in) perception and sensation (perceiving and feeling).  That seems to be the one where the "union of qualities that make a person pass away":

 

And again … a good [person], by passing quite beyond the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, enters on and abides in the stopping of perception and feeling; and when [such a person] has seen by means of wisdom [their] cankers are caused to be destroyed. And… this [person] does not imagine [his or her self] to be aught or anywhere or in anything.

 

(MN III 42-45, Pali Text Society Vol III pg 92-94)

 

"Aught or anywhere or in anything"--the union of qualities that make a person have "passed away".

 

I'm only talking about the cessation of (volition in) in-breathing and out-breathing, the experience also described as the cessation of action of the body.  Buddhaghosa's description of the windy element, and the motile part of the windy element, accurately describes the feeling when "zazen gets up and walks around" in that cessation, at least to me.

 

Here's a description I made in my post Genjo Koan: 

 

There’s a sentence in the “Genjo Koan” where Dogen speaks about the life that fish and birds enjoy, and he says:

 

…each one realizes its limitations at every moment and each one somersaults (in complete freedom) at every place…

 

(translation by Gudo Nishijima)

 

In D. L. Bartilink, “No Special Effort”, and the “Best of Ways”, I wrote about somersaulting in place:

 

The trick is to allow for movement in where I am, even when I’m not moving.

 

The place where I am can “turn and move freely everywhere” (as another translator rendered “somersaults”), and the place where I am can also remain stationary; when the place where I am is free to move yet remains stationary, the rest of me may turn around the place where I am, instead.

 

Cheng Man-Ch’ing spoke of a saying from the classic literature of Tai-Chi, “the millstone turns, but the mind does not turn”:

 

the turning of the millstone is a metaphor for the turning of the waist. The mind not turning is the central equalibrium resulting from the sinking of ch’i to the tan-t’ien.

 

‘The millstone turns but the mind does not turn’ is an oral teaching within a family transmission. It is similar to two expressions in the T’ai-chi ch’uan classics which compare the waist to an axle or a banner. This is especially noteworthy. After learning this concept my art made rapid progress.

 

("Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan", Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, tr Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, p 75, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng)

 

Dharma gates are boundless. It is really prajna that liberates.

 

What makes a person realize the delusion of personhood could honestly be any thought or practice... or no thought or practice whatsoever. Speaking for myself, I was just driving my car. No spiritual activity taking place in the moment. I'd be curious to hear what others say... 

 

I have never met a person with realization that had the moment of Stream Entry while meditating, or doing any "spiritual" activity. Some part of me wonders whether having a regular practice but not being in the process of doing it is has some bearing on realization.

[Bindi]

This seems worth a read, one sentence in particular “In the spiritual tradition, one must first understand dualism in order to reach nondualism.” 

 

Quote

 

What is Nonduality?

Nonduality is an experience. It’s a principle to explain how the universe works.

You can find this philosophy in Buddhism, Hinduism and Taoism as well as the New Age philosophy.

Nonduality is as old as man and as widespread as the spirit of the principle itself.

However, we can trace its first teachings in Advaita Vendata, Hiinduism, because the concept was most influential during the 8th century.

Advaita Vedanta Fundamental Nonduality

Advaita means “Not Two”.

This is entirely different from Oneness. It is not Oneness nor Duality, but “Not Two”.

It essentially brings to mind that God/Cosmic Consciousness/Absolute Reality and man’s true Higher Self/Atman/Soul are the same.

At the time, this was the only definition.

However, over centuries people begin to add their own interpretation and ideas to the original doctrine.

Each version becomes integrated to their religion, system, politics, philosophies, practices, etc.

The average seeker come to believe that Nonduality means that everything is oneness.

But originally it means that one’s Higher Self = God.

What this means is like a drop of water in the ocean.

The small drop of water is the individual self.

Yet, the water is not outside of the ocean, it is a part of it.

The ocean is water. And water is the ocean.

The Higher Self and the Journey to God Within

All the sages and mystics of the past know that the spiritual journey within is the journey toward the One.

They also realize that the physical reality is an illusion.

If we listen to the quiet voice inside us, we will find peace in grasping the principle of nonduality.

The path to enlightenment or union with God is found by fully awakening into our Higher Self.

This is the path which the Buddhism, Taoism, and Advaita agrees as Enlightenment or Self-Realisation.

It is the spiritual aim to know one’s true self as the timeless Absolute Awareness.

Centuries of Speculations in Nonduality

As with any wisdom teachings, there are many other teachings associated with it that confuses the seeker.

For example, one might find theories about nirvana, absorption and absolute annihilation.

Whether they are corrections to the original or mistaken interpretations, it becomes increasingly harder to disentangle the web of conceptions of Nonduality.

With misinterpretation here and contradicting theories there, we find speculations upon speculations until it becomes dogma or superstition.

The New Age version of nonduality is perhaps the most harmful of all.

New Age reduced nondualism to a theory instead of a spiritual principle.

In the spiritual tradition, one must first understand dualism in order to reach nondualism.

But in the New Age and Self-Help, we see everything as nondualism and disregarded any duality which currently exist.

This bias reaches to new heights of relativism, allowing anyone to come up with random unfounded ideas while not being critically challenged because of nonduality.

Though it does resonate with people and it does help with their spiritual development, many are motivated to use it for material purposes.

Harder Than It Appears

Many appointed teachers mistake how long it actually take to reach nonduality.

It cannot be taught in a weekend or two. Or even mastered in one lifetime.

Sometimes we believe that we are further along our spiritual path than we actually are.

The increase of inner peace or an awakening of higher consciousness has overwhelmed us and makes us believe we achieved nonduality.

But actually we have just scratched the surface and confused the step with the actual goal.

This is not union with our Higher Self/Enlightenment/Nonduality.

As long as we continue on this path, we will gain new improved truth of our truths.

By D. V.

 

 

 

“Sometimes we believe that we are further along our spiritual path than we actually are.

The increase of inner peace or an awakening of higher consciousness has overwhelmed us and makes us believe we achieved nonduality.

But actually we have just scratched the surface and confused the step with the actual goal.

This is not union with our Higher Self/Enlightenment/Nonduality.

As long as we continue on this path, we will gain new improved truth of our truths.”

 

And within the logic of the above at least, how would one continue on this path, by chasing nondualism, or continuing to work to “understand dualism in order to reach nondualism”? 

 

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

This seems worth a read, one sentence in particular “In the spiritual tradition, one must first understand dualism in order to reach nondualism.” 

 

 

 

“Sometimes we believe that we are further along our spiritual path than we actually are.

The increase of inner peace or an awakening of higher consciousness has overwhelmed us and makes us believe we achieved nonduality.

But actually we have just scratched the surface and confused the step with the actual goal.

This is not union with our Higher Self/Enlightenment/Nonduality.

As long as we continue on this path, we will gain new improved truth of our truths.”

 

And within the logic of the above at least, how would one continue on this path, by chasing nondualism, or continuing to work to “understand dualism in order to reach nondualism”? 

 

Thanks for posting that important article. One point I want to add, awakening, or whatever term one uses, can be a massive shock to the entire being. A much higher voltage than normal. Some Sufi masters tend to amp it up and are conduits of life force energy. 
 

https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Attack-Sutra-New-Commentary/dp/1559393912/ref=sr_1_1?crid=371VN5987QXJZ&keywords=Heart+attack+sutra&qid=1654642014&s=books&sprefix=heart+attack+sutra%2Cstripbooks%2C139&sr=1-1

[dawn90]

41 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

...

 

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When boundary crossing occurs, there is no appeal to a higher authority.  The teacher is the highest authority within most modern teachings.  If the teacher has shadows, control issues or lacks the ability to take personal responsibility, that authority is corrupt. 

 

Link Text

Edited June 7, 2022 by dawn90

[ralis]

I think so called non-dualism has been misunderstood in that it has been bantered about mentally and not felt physically. Ein sof or pre-manifestation, or life force, depending what one terms it, must be a powerful force of creation. Not the void as some believe. To contact such a force must be life threatening. What is in space both internally and externally? Ein sof translated means totality.

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

Why resort to gaslighting in the first sentence?

 

Case in point

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, steve said:

 

Case in point

 

Please elaborate.

[stirling]

4 hours ago, steve said:

I’ve encountered some wonderful people at Bön retreats and some people who are in a lot of pain and looking for help. There can be some big egos and some tiny ones. Some are a bit eccentric, not unlike this community. Overall I find sanghas to be a microcosm of humanity though skewed towards people actively looking to help or improve themselves and grow. The genuine and dedicated practitioners do tend to be very open, loving, and powerful people though they also tend to be quiet and rarely in the spotlight. 

 

Loved this whole posting you made, steve.

 

Just wanted to add that in addition to many of these people being genuine dedicated they are amongst the most FRAGILE I have ever encountered... even those with seemingly the biggest egos.

 

I remember one lady who was calling herself Tathagata. She was quietly "spiritual" in a contrived way. I heard some sniggering g at the audacity of her handle. Later, in the Q & A part of a dharma talk, she bravely shared a very emotional and private story which was still quite raw for her. Such genuineness and authenticity can be rare, but it is definitely what it takes in my opinion. 

[Bindi]

 

58 minutes ago, ralis said:

I think so called non-dualism has been misunderstood in that it has been bantered about mentally and not felt physically. Ein sof or pre-manifestation, or life force, depending what one terms it, must be a powerful force of creation. Not the void as some believe. To contact such a force must be life threatening. What is in space both internally and externally? Ein sof translated means totality.

Along similar lines, this is a quote from an explaining advaita Vedanta type article, with my additions in brackets: It is rare to find that person who has the conviction to challenge herself to really discover herself, to go so deep that the way one lives, the internal structure of identity that has been created by the confusion of not knowing who one really is, has the opportunity to be [completely] dissolved or destroyed, so that something more pure is [permanently] revealed. 
 

Im not interested in the halfway land of ‘nonduality’ with its fears and smugness and whatever else the I clings to lying just beneath the surface. How to remove the entire substratum is the only method I’m interested in (and I don’t need a psychiatrist to help me do it). 
 

Fundamentalist Advaita Vedanta maybe 🤔 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Bindi

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, ralis said:

I look at their actions with no projections whatsoever. 

 

I was a bit incredulous reading this statement and decided to challenge/clarify if you were being serious:

 

2 hours ago, steve said:

How sure do you feel about that?

In a sense, everything is a projection.

 

You apparently felt you were being gaslighted:

 

2 hours ago, ralis said:

Why resort to gaslighting in the first sentence?

 

I pointed out that was a projection, I did not intend to gaslight you:

 

44 minutes ago, steve said:

Case in point

 

 

In accusing me of gaslighting, I actually felt as if you were gaslighting me!

 

 

 

I think it's so easy and frequent to misunderstand each other or misread intent.

Especially in a digital medium but really in ALL situations.

We have limited information and have no choice but to fill in the gaps, we are always projecting.

That is the way the brain works in fact - it filters a lot and fills in a lot.

 

 

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, ralis said:

Please elaborate.

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

This seems worth a read, one sentence in particular “In the spiritual tradition, one must first understand dualism in order to reach nondualism.” 

 

 

 

“Sometimes we believe that we are further along our spiritual path than we actually are.

The increase of inner peace or an awakening of higher consciousness has overwhelmed us and makes us believe we achieved nonduality.

But actually we have just scratched the surface and confused the step with the actual goal.

This is not union with our Higher Self/Enlightenment/Nonduality.

As long as we continue on this path, we will gain new improved truth of our truths.”

 

And within the logic of the above at least, how would one continue on this path, by chasing nondualism, or continuing to work to “understand dualism in order to reach nondualism”? 

 

 

Had to do a little googling to find the source of this text. 

 

https://2empowerthyself.com/about-2empowerthyself/

 

I could go into detail about why, but I don't know that I would recommend this person as a representative source of information on this topic. 

[Bindi]

13 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Had to do a little googling to find the source of this text. 

 

https://2empowerthyself.com/about-2empowerthyself/

 

I could go into detail about why, but I don't know that I would recommend this person as a representative source of information on this topic. 

Perhaps, but reading that article made me start googling traditional Advaita Vedanta to see if what the author said was correct, and I think it might be, as self-knowledge is key in Advaita Vedanta, and “It’s impossible to have only partial knowledge of the Self.”

 

I can agree with these statements. I have to fully comprehend the limited self in order to be the Self, and moments of nondual view, even if it were up to 99% of the time, do not mean I have full knowledge of the Self. Buddhists don’t even believe there is a Self which is a whole other can of worms when Buddhists become nondualists. 
 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Bindi