Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[doc benway]

33 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Im not interested in the halfway land of ‘nonduality’ with its fears and smugness and whatever else the I clings to lying just beneath the surface.

You are conflating 'nonduality' with imperfect human beings walking their path and sharing their perspectives, which I am finding quite beautiful and inspiring BTW... deep bows to all who have shared their experiences...

Your beliefs and mental constructs of nonduality are not it. 

The failures you perceive are humans dancing their dances.

It's OK to be afraid and it's even OK to be smug. 

It's OK to cling too.

We do what we can and I suggest showing ourselves some kindness sometimes. 

And it's also good to continue practice in whatever fashion works for you. 

 

33 minutes ago, Bindi said:

How to remove the entire substratum is the only method I’m interested in (and I don’t need a psychiatrist to help me do it). 

A nondual approach is probably the only method to accomplish this... certainly the most expedient by a mile. 

This is why the Buddhists say the sutric approach takes very many lifetimes, the tantrikas take several, and the dzogchenpas have a shot in this very life!

 

33 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Fundamentalist Advaita Vedanta maybe 🤔 

I could see that...

 

[Bindi]

4 minutes ago, steve said:

You are conflating 'nonduality' with imperfect human beings walking their path and sharing their perspectives, which I am finding quite beautiful and inspiring BTW... deep bows to all who have shared their experiences...

Your beliefs and mental constructs of nonduality are not it. 

The failures you perceive are humans dancing their dances.

It's OK to be afraid and it's even OK to be smug. 

It's OK to cling too.

 

As a fundamentalist nondualist, it boggles my brain that any clinging is seen as acceptable, root it out I say! 

 

4 minutes ago, steve said:

We do what we can and I suggest showing ourselves some kindness sometimes. 

And it's also good to continue practice in whatever fashion works for you. 

 

A nondual approach is probably the only method to accomplish this... certainly the most expedient by a mile. 

This is why the Buddhists say the sutric approach takes very many lifetimes, the tantrikas take several, and the dzogchenpas have a shot in this very life!

 

 

A nondual approach doesn’t seem that expedient if it leads you to accept and defend clinging. 

 

4 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I could see that...

 

Indeed  

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Loved this whole posting you made, steve.

 

Just wanted to add that in addition to many of these people being genuine dedicated they are amongst the most FRAGILE I have ever encountered... even those with seemingly the biggest egos.

 

I remember one lady who was calling herself Tathagata. She was quietly "spiritual" in a contrived way. I heard some sniggering g at the audacity of her handle. Later, in the Q & A part of a dharma talk, she bravely shared a very emotional and private story which was still quite raw for her. Such genuineness and authenticity can be rare, but it is definitely what it takes in my opinion. 

 

This has also been my experience, thank you for bringing this up.

I recently completed a multiyear program in which I got to practice with and share experiences with a group of practitioners.

It was one of the most profound and valuable experiences of my life. 

People connected very deeply inside themselves and powerful things came up allowing us to connect to each other through the shared experiences.

The courage, vulnerability, and generosity were inspiring. As you say the authenticity and rawness were there for all of us.

I learned so much about myself through the others and learned just how valuable and wonderful each and every one of us are. 

It was an amazing experience. 

[stirling]

31 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Perhaps, but reading that article made me start googling traditional Advaita Vedanta to see if what the author said was correct, and I think it might be, as self-knowledge is key in Advaita Vedanta, and “It’s impossible to have only partial knowledge of the Self.”

 

I can agree with these statements. I have to fully comprehend the limited self in order to be the Self, and moments of nondual view, even if it were up to 99% of the time, do not mean I have full knowledge of the Self. Buddhists don’t even believe there is a Self which is a whole other can of worms when Buddhists become nondualists.

 

Where are you quotes from? It IS impossible to have partial knowledge of the "Self", but I wouldn't interpret as you are. Either you HAVE it, or you don't.

 

In the Tibetan tradition there is first introduction to the "nature of mind". This is a simple demonstration of what you are looking for and could be done for anyone who has meditated for a few weeks, or a month. You have an idea of what the true insight is, but it isn't the same as having complete knowledge. 

 

There is then bringing this introduction to as many moments of life as you can. Both this and the introduction could be forgotten completely and you could go back to your normal "dream" bound life.

 

Sometimes there is a single moment of complete understanding. This is Stream Entry. You will ALWAYS know the how things truly are. After this, the illusion of being a self slowly drops away over a few years until:

 

The "self" completely drops away as an illusion and there is only the "Self". This is seeing how things are "empty" ALL of the time. 

 

This comprehending of the limited "self" isn't necessary. I"m not honestly sure what it is you think there is to fully comprehend. I was a "self" for 45 years. I feel in retrospect I understood it pretty well.

 

Any enlightened Buddhist knows what the "Self" is. This one does, for example, as well as what the "Dao" is. They aren't different. 

[Bindi]

25 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Where are you quotes from? It IS impossible to have partial knowledge of the "Self", but I wouldn't interpret as you are. Either you HAVE it, or you don't.

 

In the Tibetan tradition there is first introduction to the "nature of mind". This is a simple demonstration of what you are looking for and could be done for anyone who has meditated for a few weeks, or a month. You have an idea of what the true insight is, but it isn't the same as having complete knowledge. 

 

There is then bringing this introduction to as many moments of life as you can. Both this and the introduction could be forgotten completely and you could go back to your normal "dream" bound life.

 

Sometimes there is a single moment of complete understanding. This is Stream Entry. You will ALWAYS know the how things truly are. After this, the illusion of being a self slowly drops away over a few years until:

 

The "self" completely drops away as an illusion and there is only the "Self". This is seeing how things are "empty" ALL of the time. 

 

This comprehending of the limited "self" isn't necessary. I"m not honestly sure what it is you think there is to fully comprehend. I was a "self" for 45 years. I feel in retrospect I understood it pretty well.

 

 

The self that I am not has to be comprehended, not recognising those multiple selves leaves me being those multiple selves. When they all fall away completely and permanently the Self is established for the first time. Before that, the “moment of complete understanding”, that is a momentary collapse of self identifications, but that is not the establishment of the Self, this can only happen when non-identification is absolute and final. 

 

Quote

 

Any enlightened Buddhist knows what the "Self" is. This one does, for example, as well as what the "Dao" is. They aren't different. 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Bindi

[dawn90]

@stirling you'd concead there's no gradiant when it comes to non-dual realization; you're not half-way in or half-way out. You're fully living through what is called the higher self and there's no way back for you. Correct?

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

The self that I am not has to be comprehended, not recognising those multiple selves leaves me being those multiple selves. When they all fall away completely and permanently the Self is established for the first time. Before that, the “moment of complete understanding”, that is a momentary collapse of self identifications, but that is not the establishment of the Self, this can only happen when non-identification is absolute and final. 

 

 

The “via negativa” (Neti neti) way is the way.   Whatever one is not, let it go. It is not easy (almost impossible) to get out of the labyrinth of personalities without learning to discern between what is an appearance and what is not.

[dwai]

11 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

@stirling you'd concead there's no gradiant when it comes to non-dual realization; you're not half-way in or half-way out. You're fully living through what is called the higher self and there's no way back for you. Correct?

There IS only the Self - there is no half-way in or out. Only thing missing is the recognition of true nature as being that. Once recognition happens, it is irreversible. 

[dawn90]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

Once recognition happens, it is irreversible. 

 

And you've attained that.

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

 

And you've attained that.

Everyone is already that - there is nothing to attain. What’s missing is the recognition in many. And yes — some of us have that recognition/realization. Fact is, it is paradoxical — when the recognition is missing, it seems implausible/absurd even. After the recognition it seems absurd and implausible that it was ever not there. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by dwai

[dawn90]

11 minutes ago, dwai said:

Everyone is already that

 

So I'm the same thing as you - I just don't know it yet: I'm denying my true nature.

What's the percentage of duality left in you at this present moment?

How much, just to function a little? And do everyday shores.

Edited June 8, 2022 by dawn90

[dwai]

Just now, dawn90 said:

 

So I'm the same thing as you - I just don't know it yet: I'm denying my true nature.

What's the percentage of duality left in you at this present moment.

How much, just to function a little? And do everyday shores.

Duality and nonduality are not mutually exclusive. Duality appears in the nondual reality.

So what is the percentage of duality left in me? All of it.

 

How much of it is nondual? all of it. 
 

[dawn90]

You're saying that you have a mind but it's part of a much larger happening.

That is non-dual.

[dwai]

17 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

You're saying that you have a mind but it's part of a much larger happening.

That is non-dual.

Not a part, an appearance in the nondual reality. Every thing is. Always. 
 

Think of any dream you’ve ever had. There is an entire universe that appears in it. Even you appear as a character in the dream. With a dream body, and a dream mind, doing dream things. Is there a separate dualistic “you” and a “dualistic universe” in your consciousness? Yes. It is very much dualistic. You interact with things, feel emotions, act, react. But all of it is happening in your consciousness alone. You forget that you are the dreamer, and are deeply engrossed in the dream universe, living your dream life, experiencing your dream experiences. Where is the dualistic dream “you” when you wake up? 
 

Now if you become lucid in this dream. You now know that you are actually a dreamer - this is the recognition. There was never a moment you were not that - that is like your nondual true nature. But you are also the dream character. That is your dualistic appearance in your nondual true nature. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by dwai

[dawn90]

Would that be a good representation of a non-dual awakening, or realization?

 

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

The self that I am not has to be comprehended, not recognising those multiple selves leaves me being those multiple selves. When they all fall away completely and permanently the Self is established for the first time. Before that, the “moment of complete understanding”, that is a momentary collapse of self identifications, but that is not the establishment of the Self, this can only happen when non-identification is absolute and final. 

 

You have this backwards. The "self' is completely comprehended when the "Self" is realized. Still... definitely do as you as you will, and stick by your guns. There will be realization or there won't.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, dawn90 said:

@stirling you'd concead there's no gradiant when it comes to non-dual realization; you're not half-way in or half-way out. You're fully living through what is called the higher self and there's no way back for you. Correct?

 

Correct.

[stirling]

1 hour ago, dawn90 said:

So I'm the same thing as you - I just don't know it yet: I'm denying my true nature.

What's the percentage of duality left in you at this present moment?

How much, just to function a little? And do everyday shores.

 

...just to add to Dwai's excellent post: You aren’t denying your true nature, you just don't REALIZE it. I would say the same as Dwai for the rest, but just add that complete realization has no impact on most daily life. Life is more or less the same seen from the outside.There are bills to pay, dentists, folding laundry, etc. It is the perspective of reality as it is seen and understood that shifts.

Edited June 8, 2022 by stirling

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

fundamentalist nondualist

 

Is there such a thing as a fundamentalist nondualist?  In theory, probably.  In practice, I'm guessing not (though I'm willing to be corrected if any practicing nondualist fundamentalists wish to identify themselves).

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

...just to add to Dwai's excellent post: You are denying your true nature, you just don't REALIZE it. I would say the same as Dwai for the rest, but just add that complete realization has no impact on most daily life. Life is more or less the same seen from the outside.There are bills to pay, dentists, folding laundry, etc. It is the perspective of reality as it is seen and understood that shifts.

And yet everything changes at the same time. A great “relaxation” occurs — a big sigh of relief, a letting go of all positions. Many fall away immediately, some take a bit longer.

[dawn90]

13 minutes ago, stirling said:

You are denying your true nature, you just don't REALIZE it

 

I think what we're having is fundamentally different people in their most basic functioning that are claiming that the normality is theirs.

 

it's funny because I'd say the opposite.

You don't realize how dual you are, but I guess that's a point of view and it's clear this debate can't possibly be resolved as each has chosen (I know you don't believe in that) a different way of functioning.

 

My view is clear. Non-duality is the road inside two points that are dual. Corresponding to traveling between absolute ignorance to absolute knowledge (god).

Edited June 8, 2022 by dawn90

[Bindi]

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

You have this backwards. The "self' is completely comprehended when the "Self" is realized. Still... definitely do as you as you will, and stick by your guns. There will be realization or there won't.

 

I will always stick by my guns  The 'self' is all the mistaken identities, it doesn't exist when the 'Self' is realised, if it does exist then the Self has not been realised, there is no room for self and Self, only room for one. What then are you comprehending? 

[stirling]

16 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

 

I think what we're having is fundamentally different people in their most basic functioning that are claiming that the normality is theirs.

 

it's funny because I'd say the opposite.

You don't realize how dual you are, but I guess that's a point of view and it's clear this debate can't possibly be resolved as each has chosen (I know you don't believe in that) a different way of functioning.

 

My view is clear. Non-duality is the road inside two points that are dual. Corresponding to traveling between absolute ignorance to absolute knowledge (god).

 

I meant to say:

 

Quote

You aren’t denying your true nature, you just don't REALIZE it (your true nature).

 

Sorry for the confusion.

[stirling]

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

The 'self' is all the mistaken identities, it doesn't exist when the 'Self' is realised, if it does exist then the Self has not been realised, there is no room for self and Self, only room for one. What then are you comprehending? 

 

Perhaps the disconnect is about what the "self" actually is vs. the "Self" and what happens once the "self" is realized. 

 

How would you define 'self" vs. "Self"?

 

What do you think your life would be like if you realized the "Self"?

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

I will always stick by my guns  The 'self' is all the mistaken identities, it doesn't exist when the 'Self' is realised, if it does exist then the Self has not been realised, there is no room for self and Self, only room for one. What then are you comprehending? 

Once the TV screen is realized, does the movie end? (Modern times zen koan).