Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[Bindi]

25 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Perhaps the disconnect is about what the "self" actually is vs. the "Self" and what happens once the "self" is realized. 

 

How would you define 'self" vs. "Self"?

 

What do you think your life would be like if you realized the "Self"?

I will refer to my dream which I posted earlier: 

 

I had a dream of a grape vine growing entwined on a pergola structure, it was so entwined that at its trunk it was almost impossible to tell what was vine trunk and what was pergola post. On top of the structure the branches had grown around the beams, and the tendrils had also wound themselves around the beams. In my dream I began separating the vine from the structure, starting at the tendrils, unwinding them, then unwinding the branches, and after some time coming to the trunk which had grown around the post to the point that it was was indistinguishable from it. I couldn’t unwind it as it was hard wood, not pliable like the tendrils and branches, so instead I held the trunk and the post above where they were enjoined and worked at pulling them apart. They did come apart but the whole structure started to topple over so I pushed it up again, and then this happened again, I pulled the trunk and the post apart from above where they were joined, the structure started to topple and I pushed it up again, and then pulling the post and trunk apart a third time it started to topple again, and this time I just walked away. When I looked back the overgrown heavy old vine had disappeared along with the structure, but in its place a new young vine had been planted with no structure around it, and I marvelled as I realised that the vine had never needed the structure in the first place, and was now free to grow. 
 

The structure, maybe best described as lifetimes of human conditioning and false identification, is what the ‘self’ has attached to and believes is necessary, so much so that the structure and the ‘self’ are at the deepest level indistinguishable from each other, whilst the ‘Self’ is the new young vine that has no structure, no conditioning, no false identifications, and never actually needed it. 
 

I claimed previously that the momentary experience of nonduality was not the ‘Self’, because the ‘Self’ being the new vine can only be established once all of the previous ‘self’ which is conditioned and has false identifications has completely disappeared. There can be a moments view of emptiness, but either the ‘self’ and conditioning and false identifications resume as they did in my dream when the toppled vine and structure were pushed upright by myself, or emptiness perhaps can be extended with no new ‘Self’ established. Going one step further in my view this new ‘Self’ develops and grows unhindered by conditioning and false identifications which is contrary to Advaita Vedanta, which holds that the Self is already perfect, so I can’t be an Advaita Vedantist after all, let alone a fundamentalist one. 
 

The proof for me is the absolute lack of any conditioning or false identification left, anything partial is necessarily in the land of ‘duality’ for me. 

[dwai]

Btw I was amused by the difference between bindi’s interpretation vs my own interpretation of her dream. In my mind the dream clearly is pointing to the non-dual Self.
 

Just think about it. An old gnary vine/tree and a structure so closely intertwined that it is difficult to tell them apart. And yet, once the structure collapses, it turns out that the tree was always green and young (which could be nice interpreted as ageless).
 

The toppling of the structure points to the conceptual framework that bindi  relies on for support. The old and gnarly vine is her perceived self-identification with her mind. The green and youthful vine is her True Nature, awareness which was always there, but seemed to appear as a gnarly old vine (reflected consciousness in the mind) due to its dependence on the conceptual structures she relies on. 
 

Of course there might be details of bindi’s dream that she hasn’t told us about yet. 

[old3bob]

 

"You must live in the present, launch yourself on every wave, find your eternity in each moment. Fools stand on their island of opportunities and look toward another land. There is no other land; there is no other life but this." 

Thoreau

 

"enlightenment" will never come in a future time, it can only be now,  thus give unto time what is time's and unto enlightenment what is enlightenment's.  (not totally different from the Bible saying of,  "So Jesus told them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's.”"

Edited June 8, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

9 minutes ago, dwai said:

Btw I was amused by the difference between bindi’s interpretation vs my own interpretation of her dream. In my mind the dream clearly is pointing to the non-dual Self.
 

Just think about it. An old gnary vine/tree and a structure so closely intertwined that it is difficult to tell them apart. And yet, once the structure collapses, it turns out that the tree was always green and young (which could be nice interpreted as ageless).
 

The toppling of the structure points to the conceptual framework that bindi  relies on for support. The old and gnarly vine is her perceived self-identification with her mind. The green and youthful vine is her True Nature, awareness which was always there, but seemed to appear as a gnarly old vine (reflected consciousness in the mind) due to its dependence on the conceptual structures she relies on. 
 

Of course there might be details of bindi’s dream that she hasn’t told us about yet. 

Actually I pretty much agree with what you’re saying, I’m not quite sure how we’re seeing it differently? 

[doc benway]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

Everyone is already that - there is nothing to attain. What’s missing is the recognition in many. And yes — some of us have that recognition/realization. Fact is, it is paradoxical — when the recognition is missing, it seems implausible/absurd even. After the recognition it seems absurd and implausible that it was ever not there. 

 

This was precisely how it felt for me when it hit. I laughed for days. I happened to be on vacation with my family at the time and they seemed to get a little concerned about my sanity so I had to consciously reign it in… 

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Actually I pretty much agree with what you’re saying, I’m not quite sure how we’re seeing it differently? 

The difference seems to be in you thinking that a “new” vine grows in place of the old. Whereas I am suggesting that there never was an old and gnarly vine. It was always the “new” vine. 
 

To extrapolate a bit more, based on what you’ve shared vis-a-vis your preferred path - do you need to “know” the old structure to let it go/topple it? What some of us here are suggesting is that all you need to know is the point of this apparent union between the structure and the vine. Once you know it, simply rip the old structure off.
 

That is precisely what Advaita Vedanta and other nondual traditions prescribe.
 

* First separate your Self from all constructs (concepts and percepts) using neti-neti

* second recognize that all concepts are percepts arise in you the Self 

* third, recognize that you are the space in which all duality appears and disappears - there is nothing to avoid or chase after. When you do that, it is the end of suffering. 

[Bindi]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

The difference seems to be in you thinking that a “new” vine grows in place of the old. Whereas I am suggesting that there never was an old and gnarly vine. It was always the “new” vine. 
 

To extrapolate a bit more, based on what you’ve shared vis-a-vis your preferred path - do you need to “know” the old structure to let it go/topple it? What some of us here are suggesting is that all you need to know is the point of this apparent union between the structure and the vine. Once you know it, simply rip the old structure off.
 

 

I have to disentangle my mind from the structure,  and my entanglement is many hundreds of points between tendrils, sticks, and the apparently conjoined trunk and post. Even falling the whole thing is reinstated twice before finally turning my back on it all, getting the two apart doesn’t seem like a simple job to me, and in my dream I do the whole process very deliberately and methodically. 
 

I’d say I need to see what I’m doing, and be very clear about how to get it done, there is a lot of effort involved, and an order that I have to follow for it to come down fully, for instance starting at the trunk wouldn’t work because there would still be sticks and tendrils attached, and there would be no space above the conjoined trunk/post to find a handhold to start pulling them apart. 
 

I think the difference for me is that I see all vasanas and samskaras and karmas as needing to be divested before the grand happening, and I very much get the idea that the nondually realised on this board don’t see that as necessary. 

 

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

That is precisely what Advaita Vedanta and other nondual traditions prescribe.
 

* First separate your Self from all constructs (concepts and percepts) using neti-neti

* second recognize that all concepts are percepts arise in you the Self 

* third, recognize that you are the space in which all duality appears and disappears - there is nothing to avoid or chase after. When you do that, it is the end of suffering. 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I have to disentangle my mind from the structure,  and my entanglement is many hundreds of points between tendrils, sticks, and the apparently conjoined trunk and post. Even falling the whole thing is reinstated twice before finally turning my back on it all, getting the two apart doesn’t seem like a simple job to me, and in my dream I do the whole process very deliberately and methodically. 
 

I’d say I need to see what I’m doing, and be very clear about how to get it done, there is a lot of effort involved, and an order that I have to follow for it to come down fully, for instance starting at the trunk wouldn’t work because there would still be sticks and tendrils attached, and there would be no space above the conjoined trunk/post to find a handhold to start pulling them apart. 
 

I think the difference for me is that I see all vasanas and samskaras and karmas as needing to be divested before the grand happening, and I very much get the idea that the nondually realised on this board don’t see that as necessary. 

 

 

A hypothetical scenario - imagine that you have to cut a branch on a tree that is very high above the ground. You climb the tree to the height where the branch is at. Would you rather perch on the branch you're cutting, or on another, more stable one, so you can chop down the branch you wanted to cut? Your "personalities" etc are the branch you want to chop down. The method of neti-neti immediately puts you in progressively more stable ground, from where you can clear up the obscurations one layer at a time. 

 

Why don't you give Drig Drishya Viveka a real chance? It might help you avoid unnecessary labor. 

[stirling]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

The structure, maybe best described as lifetimes of human conditioning and false identification, is what the ‘self’ has attached to and believes is necessary, so much so that the structure and the ‘self’ are at the deepest level indistinguishable from each other, whilst the ‘Self’ is the new young vine that has no structure, no conditioning, no false identifications, and never actually needed it. 
 

I claimed previously that the momentary experience of nonduality was not the ‘Self’, because the ‘Self’ being the new vine can only be established once all of the previous ‘self’ which is conditioned and has false identifications has completely disappeared. There can be a moments view of emptiness, but either the ‘self’ and conditioning and false identifications resume as they did in my dream when the toppled vine and structure were pushed upright by myself, or emptiness perhaps can be extended with no new ‘Self’ established. Going one step further in my view this new ‘Self’ develops and grows unhindered by conditioning and false identifications which is contrary to Advaita Vedanta, which holds that the Self is already perfect, so I can’t be an Advaita Vedantist after all, let alone a fundamentalist one. 
 

The proof for me is the absolute lack of any conditioning or false identification left, anything partial is necessarily in the land of ‘duality’ for me. 

 

You are clearly a very brave, sincere and motivated practitioner to put your personal journey up here for the world to consider. That is worth a LOT on this journey. My sincere respect.

 

I guess I'm looking for more clarity on this question:

 

Quote

What do you think your life would be like if you realized the "Self"?

 

In a sentence, can you describe the revised understanding of reality that you would now hold?

 

Specifically, what would your walking around experience would be. Would there even BE one?

 

Supposing there is still existing in this reality : What happens in difficult situations? Do emotions or thoughts arise? Do you have a job, friends, or partner(s)? Does the world look like this still, or something else?

 

If you aren't in this reality, what is THAT reality like? Who is there?

 

Bonus question: Who else is there that has this proposed insight?

 

-

 

Thanks again for working with us to bring some sharing and understanding to this.

[stirling]

2 hours ago, steve said:

This was precisely how it felt for me when it hit. I laughed for days. I happened to be on vacation with my family at the time and they seemed to get a little concerned about my sanity so I had to consciously reign it in… 

 

My wife was not immediately impressed with my post insight "Self". She was a little concerned that I had lost it and that I was going to chuck her and either go to a monastery or a convent. I had to prove my new (increased) "sanity". She is very patient. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by stirling

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I have to disentangle my mind from the structure,  and my entanglement is many hundreds of points between tendrils, sticks, and the apparently conjoined trunk and post. Even falling the whole thing is reinstated twice before finally turning my back on it all, getting the two apart doesn’t seem like a simple job to me, and in my dream I do the whole process very deliberately and methodically. 

 

How would you know if you got them all?

 

Quote

I think the difference for me is that I see all vasanas and samskaras and karmas as needing to be divested before the grand happening, and I very much get the idea that the nondually realised on this board don’t see that as necessary. 

 

Speaking solely for myself, I would say that the insight is the realization about what those all truly are. Most of the major ones need to be cleared before insight. Each time one comes up it is obvious what it is, it is noticed and it is dissolved. This is, IMHO, what Manitou was talking about with her "fear". She likely wasn't even aware that it was happening, she noticed and it was dropped. It is ABSOLUTELY the non-dual understanding that makes this actually possible. 

 

I am certain this isn't just my experience.

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I have to disentangle my mind from the structure,  and my entanglement is many hundreds of points between tendrils, sticks, and the apparently conjoined trunk and post. Even falling the whole thing is reinstated twice before finally turning my back on it all, getting the two apart doesn’t seem like a simple job to me, and in my dream I do the whole process very deliberately and methodically. 
 

I’d say I need to see what I’m doing, and be very clear about how to get it done, there is a lot of effort involved, and an order that I have to follow for it to come down fully, for instance starting at the trunk wouldn’t work because there would still be sticks and tendrils attached, and there would be no space above the conjoined trunk/post to find a handhold to start pulling them apart. 
 

I think the difference for me is that I see all vasanas and samskaras and karmas as needing to be divested before the grand happening, and I very much get the idea that the nondually realised on this board don’t see that as necessary. 

 

 

From a Christian teaching did the thieves crucified  with Jesus have to reach his level before they were quickened and raised up?

Edited June 8, 2022 by old3bob

[old3bob]

I'd say that all of these heavy duty and sometimes complex sounding mixtures of various teachings can easily knock one out of their own personal kilter even if such meant well,  thus a good teacher wont' do that, as in trying to force someone into understanding or alignment with such. 

[doc benway]

17 minutes ago, old3bob said:

I'd say that all of these heavy duty and sometimes complex sounding mixtures of various teachings can easily knock one out of their own personal kilter even if such meant well,  thus a good teacher wont' do that, as in trying to force someone into understanding or alignment with such. 

 

Not necessarily the case.

A good teacher will use whatever is needed and sometimes that can be quite extreme. Interesting stories about such things abound, particularly  in Tibetan and Zen traditions. 

That said I do agree we need to be a bit mindful and gentle with each other on this topic because the process can be traumatic and/or destabilizing. 

[Mark Foote]

17 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

My wife was not immediately impressed with my post insight "Self". She was a little concerned that I had lost it and was going to chuck her and either go to a monastery or a convent. I had to prove my new (increased) "sanity". She is very patient. 

 

I went through a phase where, after years of vegetarianism, I was finally living on an undeveloped piece of property in Humboldt County.  I had for my roommate a man certified disabled by reason of schizophrenia.  My mother was sent by the father of an old friend of mine, to see if she needed to commit me (or something).  I was into the spirit of things.  She had dark glasses on.

Ha ha!  Wasn't so funny at the time.

It was after I gave up the country, moved back to San Francisco (living in a VW bug for weeks), got a job washing dishes at the Good Karma Cafe and a place to live under a staircase in the panhandle, that I had that strange experience where my breath (seemingly) got me up out of a chair and walked me to the door.  

As I think I've mentioned, I found I could tune into that experience often, and even when "the inconceivable" was not actualized immediately, my deepest-held belief was.  I would stand outside my place of employment, waiting for "the inconceivable" to walk me through the door, after which I assumed I was in the right place and let it go.

I know that there are folks like Nisargadatta, who spoke about following the instructions of his teacher:
 

I simply followed his instruction, which was to focus the mind on pure being, "I am," and stay in it. I used to sit for hours together, with nothing but the "I am" in my mind and soon the peace and joy and deep all-embracing love became my normal state. In it all disappeared—myself, my guru, the life I lived, the world around me. Only peace remained, and unfathomable silence. (I Am That, Dialogue 51, April 16, 1971).

(Wikipedia, "Nisargadatta Maharaj")

 

But we also have many who had the same formidable presence as Nisargadatta who fancied a sex life with young boys.  What to make of that presence!

Gautama attained the cessation of volition in perceiving and feeling, such that desire, hatred, and ignorance ended and only the "disturbance" of the six senses (including the mind) remained.  He didn't stay in that state. 

 

He said that he returned to "that first characteristic of concentration in which I ever abide" after he spoke, implying he didn't have concentration when he spoke.  I think it's likely that by "that first characteristic", he was referring to one-pointedness of mind, which he identified with concentration.  

As I've mentioned, that's not "one-pointedness of mind" where awareness is located here and the object of attention is over there.  More like just before falling asleep, where the physical location of awareness seems to move freely, and the senses are a part of locating awareness.

The characterization of the "Diamond Sutra" corresponds to my experience of "one-pointedness of mind":
 

Let the mind be present without an abode.

 

(tr Venerable Master Hsing Yun, “The Rabbit’s Horn: A Commentary on the Platform Sutra”, Buddha’s Light Publishing p 60)

 

  Koun Franz points to a tendency of the mind to move to the center of balance.  Cheng Man-Ching speaks about keeping the mind together with the ch'i at the dan-t'ian.  Why am I not hearing anything of this from all you Bums?  As though working with the body was as unimportant as Nisargadatta made it sound!  Where are those channels, central and otherwise?  How is it that everybody is happy as a clam in their minds, and not still learning from their bodies?

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

Not necessarily the case.

A good teacher will use whatever is needed and sometimes that can be quite extreme. Interesting stories about such things abound, particularly  in Tibetan and Zen traditions. 

That said I do agree we need to be a bit mindful and gentle with each other on this topic because the process can be traumatic and/or destabilizing. 

 

I knew that was coming Steve, so put it in the context of 3 to 5 different teachers from greatly varied traditions, some of which do not see eye to eye, all hammering on one student to somehow force understanding of them or their teachings at the same time, that would be an untenable and bad practice...  in most anyone's opinion

Edited June 8, 2022 by old3bob

[dwai]

46 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

I knew that coming Steve, so put it in the context of 3 to  5 different teachers from greatly varied traditions, some of which do not see eye to eye, all hammering on one student to somehow force understanding of them or their teachings at the same time, that would be an untenable and bad practice...  in most anyone's opinion

These things can’t be forced. I think we forget that this platform is not meant for teaching, but exchanging of ideas and views. Can that act as teaching? Maybe - depends on the individual. 

[old3bob]

Just now, dwai said:

These things can’t be forced. I think we forget that this platform is not meant for teaching, but exchanging of ideas and views. Can that act as teaching? Maybe - depends on the individual. 

 

right, but if or when points (or certain correlations) are hammered on over and over again, even if not meaning to be forced, they can still have a forcing character to them ime.

[stirling]

55 minutes ago, old3bob said:

I knew that was coming Steve, so put it in the context of 3 to 5 different teachers from greatly varied traditions, some of which do not see eye to eye, all hammering on one student to somehow force understanding of them or their teachings at the same time, that would be an untenable and bad practice...  in most anyone's opinion

 

I see a surprising amount of unity (haha!) on the topic and respect from most parties on this thread. Maybe... I dunno, 3 to 5 different parties? I also see a lot of kindness and Wisdom.

Edited June 8, 2022 by stirling

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

I see a surprising amount of unity (haha!) on the topic and respect from most parties on this thread. Maybe... I dunno, 3 to 5 different parties? I also see a lot of kindness and Wisdom.

 

I happen to see you constantly hammering away, although meaning well, and although "the road to hell is (sometimes) paved with good intentions".

Edited June 8, 2022 by old3bob

[blue eyed snake]

21 hours ago, dwai said:

I think that is what leads to "misery" - because people want things to go the way they would like things to go. They don't accept the comings and goings of things/events/feelings of "good" and "not good". There is an inherent resistance to the departure of the "good" and aversion towards the "not good". This is what The Buddha called "dukkha/vedana". A perpetual state of discontentment/dissatisfaction that becomes a chronic cycle of craving and aversion. "Coping" alright might be the case on the surface, but dig a bit deeper, and all these things are building up, little by little for most people I encounter. If it was any different, people would be happier across the world, and there would be far less conflict and suffering. That is not the case, and has not been so in the past few hundred years at least. 

 

oh yes, there is a lot of unneeded suffering. Won't deny that.

 

but teaching Buddhism to each and everybody ( as you seem to imply here) does not appeal to me. In fact buddhism does not appeal to me, just BES, that's enough.

 

ending wars,

feeding, clothing and educating the poor would be first anyways

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

right, but if or when points (or certain correlations) are hammered on over and over again, even if not meaning to be forced, they can still have a forcing character to them ime.

I wouldn't think of it as "hammering" but rather as "pointing to". In different ways, different examples, metaphors, allegories etc. This is exactly what you will find out being played out in the Upanishads etc as well.

 

How much of this "forceful character" is perceived rather than intended or implied? If I want to go from Chicago to Florida, but instead of going south I go east, west or north, and the GPS keeps redirecting back towards Florida, is that "forceful"?

[dwai]

1 minute ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

oh yes, there is a lot of unneeded suffering. Won't deny that.

 

but teaching Buddhism to each and everybody ( as you seem to imply here) does not appeal to me. In fact buddhism does not appeal to me, just BES, that's enough.

 

ending wars,

feeding, clothing and educating the poor would be first anyways

I'm not a Buddhist and don't teach Buddhism  

I would think of it as an alternative perspective that one can choose to try out or not. In the spirit of open discussion here on a public forum dedicated to this kind of subject, it is natural to find this kind of discourse. 

[silent thunder]

17 hours ago, steve said:

Your beliefs and mental constructs of nonduality are not it. 

The failures you perceive are humans dancing their dances.

It's OK to be afraid and it's even OK to be smug. 

It's OK to cling too.

We do what we can and I suggest showing ourselves some kindness sometimes. 

And it's also good to continue practice in whatever fashion works for you. 

Deep resonance with this. 

thank you for sharing.

[dawn90]

What's the weather like in your heart @steve?