Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[blue eyed snake]

19 hours ago, stirling said:

I have never met a person with realization that had the moment of Stream Entry while meditating, or doing any "spiritual" activity. Some part of me wonders whether having a regular practice but not being in the process of doing it is has some bearing on realization.

 

while ironing curtains

 

never had any teaching about it, only thing "I did" was a bit of meditating and a bit of chigung.

the more 'intellectual' realisation that ' me'  is nothing but layer upaon layer of learnt behavior etc. came after abut 3 months, that was together with high energetical happening, I still bear the mark of that on the body. 

what you call stream-entry after say 2 years, that was weird, soft and so funny

[silent thunder]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

The “via negativa” (Neti neti) way is the way.   Whatever one is not, let it go. It is not easy (almost impossible) to get out of the labyrinth of personalities without learning to discern between what is an appearance and what is not.

 

14 hours ago, dwai said:

And yet everything changes at the same time. A great “relaxation” occurs — a big sigh of relief, a letting go of all positions. Many fall away immediately, some take a bit longer.

 

These succinctly reflect my process of release and my experience of unfolding in life, not arising or claiming or achieving. 

Constant letting go, allowing illusion, reaction, to fall away and settle as it will where it will.  

 

tzujan  

 

Flowers do not unfurl in deep striving and effort, they fall open 'of themselves'.  Clouds do no study hard and attempt to form, or float.  Water flows of itself without training or need for instruction.

 

we are as we are and this is never not the case.

Illusion, supposition, projection, assumption, thinking... all these occlude realization.

 

awareness is.

[silent thunder]

20 hours ago, ralis said:

 

Why resort to gaslighting in the first sentence?
 

That is the Buddhist view. I was stating facts regarding gurus that are held in high esteem and worshiped by many. Many of whom turned out to be sexual abusers etc. Includes the Tibetan gurus. I think that non-dualism makes one passive even the the face of disaster. 

 

@silent thunder

 

You think sexual abuse is hilarious? 

I find your projections revealing.

[ralis]

Just now, silent thunder said:

I find your projections revealing.

 

The sexual abuses are factual!! Not projections!

[silent thunder]

Just now, ralis said:

 

The sexual abuses are factual!! Not projections!

*sigh*  rabid ralis is at it again, tilting at windmills and looking for someone to blame.

 no energy to devote to your usual games today mate.

 

 

 

 

[manitou]

19 hours ago, Bindi said:

But originally it means that one’s Higher Self = God.

 

 

There's your puppy.

 

That's exactly the realization.  

 

Along with the realization that your Higher Self doesn't live up in the clouds somewhere.  It is you one and the same with You.  And Me.  And Him.  And them.  And It.

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by manitou

[ralis]

2 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

*sigh*  rabid ralis is at it again, tilting at windmills and looking for someone to blame.

 no energy to devote to your usual games today mate.

 

 

 

 

 

Rabid? Laughing at sexual abuse is no laughing matter! Even the Dalai Lama admitted he knew it was happening for decades. 

[silent thunder]

As with many concepts of this calibur... when words are used to point to experiential processes they tend to readily absorb us out of experience and into mentation.

 

Like the proverbial finger pointing to the moon.  The finger is absorbing attention and often occludes the moon.

 

Shunryu Suzuki:  As soon as you see something (or describe it in words), you already start to intellectualize it. As soon as you intellectualize something, it is no longer what you saw (experienced).  

[silent thunder]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

Rabid? Laughing at sexual abuse is no laughing matter! Even the Dalai Lama admitted he knew it was happening for decades. 

You are truly lost in this mate. 

 

You seemingly can not see what my reaction was to at all.  I leave you to whatever process you are engaged in.

[ralis]

5 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

You are truly lost in this mate. 

 

You seemingly can not see what my reaction was to at all.  I leave you to whatever process you are engaged in.

 

There are a number of points in my post and why not be clear as to what you are laughing at?

 

Not lost at all. You don't know me or anything about me so stop assuming you do.

[silent thunder]

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

There are a number of points in my post and why not be clear as to what you are laughing at?

 

Not lost at all. You don't know me or anything about me so stop assuming you do.

 

mirror...

[Apech]

I'm reading this thread through COVID brain fog - so forgive me if I miss the point or repeat.

 

Ultimately, whatever it is that we are ... or the reality which is ... is complete.  That is, it is a continuum and has no gaps, contradictions or error.  But in effect the transformations we are involved in inevitably involve struggle.  Struggle with fear for instance, or with stupidity and so on.  The non-duality of it all is that it can be both at once.  

 

... lost my thread ... please carry on ...

 

 

[ralis]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

I'm reading this thread through COVID brain fog - so forgive me if I miss the point or repeat.

 

Ultimately, whatever it is that we are ... or the reality which is ... is complete.  That is, it is a continuum and has no gaps, contradictions or error.  But in effect the transformations we are involved in inevitably involve struggle.  Struggle with fear for instance, or with stupidity and so on.  The non-duality of it all is that it can be both at once.  

 

... lost my thread ... please carry on ...

 

 

 

How bad is your infection? Get well soon!!!

[old3bob]

34 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

You are truly lost in this mate. 

 

You seemingly can not see what my reaction was to at all.  I leave you to whatever process you are engaged in.

 

I'd suggest dropping what comes across as unseemly pretense ST

[old3bob]

10 minutes ago, Apech said:

I'm reading this thread through COVID brain fog - so forgive me if I miss the point or repeat.

 

Ultimately, whatever it is that we are ... or the reality which is ... is complete.  That is, it is a continuum and has no gaps, contradictions or error.  But in effect the transformations we are involved in inevitably involve struggle.  Struggle with fear for instance, or with stupidity and so on.  The non-duality of it all is that it can be both at once.  

 

... lost my thread ... please carry on ...

 

 

sorry to hear of your covid condition! Wishing you wellness Apech...

[blue eyed snake]

13 minutes ago, Apech said:

I'm reading this thread through COVID brain fog - so forgive me if I miss the point or repeat.

 

Ultimately, whatever it is that we are ... or the reality which is ... is complete.  That is, it is a continuum and has no gaps, contradictions or error.  But in effect the transformations we are involved in inevitably involve struggle.  Struggle with fear for instance, or with stupidity and so on.  The non-duality of it all is that it can be both at once.  

 

... lost my thread ... please carry on ...

 

 

get well soon , take as much rest as you can, more then you think you need 

[dwai]

26 minutes ago, Apech said:

through COVID brain fog

Get well soon Apech! 

[natural]

25 minutes ago, Apech said:

I'm reading this thread through COVID brain fog - so forgive me if I miss the point or repeat.

 

Ultimately, whatever it is that we are ... or the reality which is ... is complete.  That is, it is a continuum and has no gaps, contradictions or error.  But in effect the transformations we are involved in inevitably involve struggle.  Struggle with fear for instance, or with stupidity and so on.  The non-duality of it all is that it can be both at once.  

 

... lost my thread ... please carry on ...

 

 

Hoping you get the healing rest and all the support you need!

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I'm not a Buddhist and don't teach Buddhism  

I would think of it as an alternative perspective that one can choose to try out or not. In the spirit of open discussion here on a public forum dedicated to this kind of subject, it is natural to find this kind of discourse. 

 

see, that is what comes of being un-educated .

but I still disagree, we were talking about people at large, not people here at the forum.

 

I do not think it's a good idea to somehow cajole people into trying something/ teaching them about nondualism f.i.  when they have not by themselves declared an interest in learning bout that. 

 

Further, this is Bindi's thread, she wants to explore the differences in perspective, anyway, that what the title of the thread says, so no need to 'reach her a hand as to methods' as she's clearly not interested.

 

I am a firm believer in to each her own in her or his own good time.

 

My best friend is a devout Christian in a (to me) almost sect like little church. It makes me cringe, but seeing how she lives, what she is doing with this religion, how she's transforming herself then I cannot but conclude for her, in this life this is right.

 

same goes for everybody, I try not to meddle in those things 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

How bad is your infection? Get well soon!!!

 

Thanks Ralis - looks like I've managed to get away with a mild flu like condition with strange body aches (at one point it felt like I'd swallowed a house brick - very strange) - but it has left me very tired and it's hard to concentrate.  But still enjoying this conversation!

 

 

[ralis]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Thanks Ralis - looks like I've managed to get away with a mild flu like condition with strange body aches (at one point it felt like I'd swallowed a house brick - very strange) - but it has left me very tired and it's hard to concentrate.  But still enjoying this conversation!

 

 

‘You’re quite welcome! I had a touch of either the flu or COVID for three days. Aches, fever, sweats and chills. No respiratory or any loss in taste or smell. It was very odd that I would cycle through all the symptoms in a very short period of time then it was gone, only to return again.  All in three days. Is this similar to your condition?

[dwai]

1 hour ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

see, that is what comes of being un-educated .

but I still disagree, we were talking about people at large, not people here at the forum.

 

I do not think it's a good idea to somehow cajole people into trying something/ teaching them about nondualism f.i.  when they have not by themselves declared an interest in learning bout that. 

 

I usually don’t in a “normal” setting. It is usually wasted on ordinary people. It is best kept for those sincerely seeking, or suffering terribly and thereby looking for peace. 

Quote

Further, this is Bindi's thread, she wants to explore the differences in perspective, anyway, that what the title of the thread says, so no need to 'reach her a hand as to methods' as she's clearly not interested.

I think we’ve explored that quite a bit.  

Quote

 

I am a firm believer in to each her own in her or his own good time.

It is how it usually pans out, irrespective of how hard/less one tries. 

Quote

My best friend is a devout Christian in a (to me) almost sect like little church. It makes me cringe, but seeing how she lives, what she is doing with this religion, how she's transforming herself then I cannot but conclude for her, in this life this is right.

 

same goes for everybody, I try not to meddle in those things 

I don’t think this is the same - it might seem that way to you, but it is not as I see it. No one is proselytizing - just that many misconceptions and strawman arguments about nonduality are being dispelled.  It might seem harsh or “hammer-like” at times — but they are necessary. Because, without proper understanding, what kind of meaningful exploration is possible? 

Edited June 8, 2022 by dwai

[ralis]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

I usually don’t in a “normal” setting. It is usually wasted on ordinary people. It is best kept for those sincerely seeking, or suffering terribly and thereby looking for peace. 

I think we’ve explored that quite a bit.  

It is how it usually pans out, irrespective of how hard/less one tries. 

I don’t think this is the same - it might seem that way to you, but it is not as I see it. No one is proselytizing - just that many misconceptions and strawman arguments about nonduality are being dispelled.  It might seem harsh or “hammer-like” at times — but they are necessary. Because, without proper understanding, what kind of meaningful exploration is possible? 

“Ordinary people”? Figures that your attitude/worldview would reveal itself here. 

[natural]

3 minutes ago, ralis said:

“Ordinary people”? Figures that your attitude/worldview would reveal itself here. 

 

Ouch, just ouch ralis, a bit dramatic?

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, ralis said:

“Ordinary people”? Figures that your attitude/worldview would reveal itself here. 

 why? Ordinary people vs spiritual  seekers. FWIW, I consider you and all who participate on TDB as spiritual seekers. 
 

come on now @ralis - don’t try misconstrue my words to “win” in what I consider to be a one-sided argument.