Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[stirling]

8 hours ago, steve said:

This is a good and important point although I don’t know that stirling actually is doing that. Nonduality is not what reality is but rather refers to our relationship to reality. Reality itself cannot be defined or imputed in any way. This is why the dzogchen teachings speak to me more directly than others.

 

Right. Thanks Steve.

 

We can say that reality is non-dual, but non-duality is another concept. Vajrayana Buddhism would say it is Sunyata, but this is yet another concept.  "Reality" is not only empty of things with intrinsic existence, but it is also empty of conceptual ideation. It cannot be described, only pointed to. 

 

The closest I have ever been able to come to my satisfaction is: There is THIS. It is HAPPENING NOW.

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Shikantazaa/Zazen is always objectless, yes?

 

 

 

“Shikantaza not here,” he insisted in elementary English, pointing to his head. “Not here,” he continued, pointing to his heart. “Only point here!” He drove his fist into his lower belly, the energy center that the Japanese call hara.

 

I have spent the last several years in an American Zen temple that by our standards is strict and intense, but my training, I am finding, seems moot here. I have labored for years to open out my meditation—which is, after all “just sitting”—away from reliance on heavy-handed internal or external concentration objects, and toward a more subtle, broad, open awareness. Roshi-sama is said to be a master of this wide practice of shikantaza, the objectless meditation characteristic of the Soto school. But he insists, again and again, weeping at my deafness, shouting at my stubbornness, that hara focus is precisely shikantaza. That it makes no sense makes it no less inspiring; it is his presence, not his words, that I believe.

 

“No grasping—only point here.” He rested his fist on his belly. I had nothing to say.

 

… “Here,” he said, pointing to his chin and thrusting it out to show me that doing so made his back slump in bad Zen posture. He looked up at me with wide, soft brown eyes, and a kind smile that exposed his crooked teeth. In a warm, encouraging voice, like a boy addressing his puppy, he pointed to his back and said, “Like this no good. Keep try!”

 

My posture is quite good; I’ve been told so by peers and teachers alike in the U.S….

 

(“Two Shores of Zen”, by Jiryu Mark Rutschman-Byler; emphasis added)
 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

WHOSE action?

 

 

"Sometimes zazen gets up and walks around"--zazen's action?  

More on Roshi-sama's reply to Jiryu Mark's "objectless meditation" ("only point here", fist on belly):

 

The “hara” (or “tanden”) was also mentioned by Dogen’s teacher, Rujing:

 

Breath enters and reaches the tanden, and yet there is no place from which it comes. Therefore it is neither long nor short. Breath emerges from the tanden, and yet there is nowhere it goes. Therefore it is neither short nor long.

 

(“Eihei Koroku”, Dogen, vol. 5, #390, trans. Okumura)

 

Rujing mentions the tanden, but the focus of his statement is really the rejection of the comprehension of the long or short in inhalation or exhalation. Rujing appears to be taking issue with the second component of the “setting up of mindfulness” in the teaching of Gautama the Buddha:

 

Whether [one] is breathing in a long (breath), breathing out a long (breath), breathing in a short (breath), breathing out a short (breath), one comprehends ‘I am breathing in a long (breath), I am breathing out a long (breath), I am breathing in a short (breath), I am breathing out a short (breath).’

 

(MN III 82-83, Pali Text Society III pg 124)

 

At the same time, Rujing doesn’t abandon the distinction of inhalation and exhalation nor some particulars in the movement of each: he says that inhalation “enters”, then “reaches” the tanden (“yet there is no place from which it comes”); likewise, he says that exhalation “emerges” from the tanden (“yet there is nowhere it goes”). To comprehend “enters” as distinct from “reaches” and to comprehend “emerges” may amount to a comprehension of inhalation or exhalation very similar to that offered by “long” or “short”.

 

(yours truly, Shikantaza and Gautama the Buddha’s “Pleasant Way of Living”)

 

 

I'm not really aware of my breathing, most of the time.  I come back to it when I stop doing, I'm grateful for that.  

 

 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

In Buddhism all appearances, be they thoughts, feelings, objects, etc. arise in the dharmakaya. You can choose a different more divided story for how it works, but in the end I don't think the cosmology matters. You can spend a trillion dollars, but your question won't be answered. 

 

The subtle form of a fear is a duality. Examples such as a fear that there are phenomena that aren't "Self" that could effect you, or, in Buddhist terms, fear of phenomena that have some intrinsic reality (belonging to them"selves"). Even the thought of "premature non-duality" or "premature kundalini" is something that would eventually be dropped, because don't ultimately make any sense from the non-dual perspective. I understand that this isn't going to make sense. My suggestion is to hold this lightly too. 
 

 

Anyone with non-dual realization is going to tell you that it is the absolute reality. Buddhisms explanation of this is the "Two Truths Doctrine", where both exist, but the Absolute Truth includes and supersedes the Relative Truth.

 

https://www.lionsroar.com/what-are-the-two-truths/

 

A subtle body is possible, just as ghosts, gods, and bigfoot are possible (or even real), but none of these have any real bearing on understanding the Absolute or real gnosis. What "we" are is immortal, for example, but not from some transmutation of the body - from an understanding that what we are is NOT a body... it is all pervasive awareness, nothing that corresponds to an object. 
 

 

The neidanist would say transmutation of the body is exactly what is required with the production of the immortal body, I think I would be able to present this as a Christian ideal as well in the transfiguration of Jesus when he reveals himself as an ineffable/indescribable manifestation of light and glory in the physical dimension. Jonathon Livingston seagull would also concur, but Buddha and Buddhists and nondenominational nondualists believe that this is not it. It may be that it is simply not a Buddhist or a nondualist attainment, therefore devalued. A well thought out philosophy will cover itself. 
 

A Nondualist walks into a bar where a man shining with ineffable light is drinking a beer, everyone in the bar is astounded and thinks they are seeing the face of God, and the Nondualist says Meh, a visible light body, how very dual. 

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Many non-dual realized "yogis" of various traditions have some level of siddhis, though few will talk about it. Many of the siddhis are real too, but not ultimately of any import.

Because nondual philosophy is so absolute siddhis ar not of any import, but if someone is suffering physically and someone comes along who can remove their pain, cure their blindness, help them to walk again, is that really of no import? It is more noble to let the physically disabled remain disabled and in pain because the body is nothing anyway? 
 

What if you had the choice of action, say you were a naturally gifted healer who was also a nondualist and someone in your family is dying from cancer, or bed-ridden and suffering, do you say ahh, such is life let’s embrace this moment, or do you wave your hand over them and heal them? What would a disabled nondualist choose, the healing or accepting things exactly as they are? 

[doc benway]

9 hours ago, Bindi said:

I have a concept that a feeling once created remains with us until it is fully felt, Apech was saying something similar I believe in more Buddhist terms. I would use as an analogy for unfelt feelings, mud and sh** in an emotional stream, which ideally should be flowing freely and clearly. To be honest I think this is the fundamental human problem, how to re-establish the flow of the emotional stream, which to me necessarily involves removing the mud and sh** first. I have developed my own methods to do this, part of which is accepting and feeling these ‘forms’ until they have no energy left in them. 

 

In my practice, the way of clearing obstacles in body, speech, and mind is to stay with the experience in this very moment completely, to feel it fully. If we remain connected without adding, subtracting, or changing anything, with patience and presence, the feeling or thought is unable to sustain itself for very long and liberates by itself because there is no one holding on. When there is no one holding on both subject and object are free and fall way; and there is a clear presence that is fresh and immediate. It is indescribable and unspeakable. This is who I am. It is empty, open, and clearly aware and there is unlimited possibility. Subject and object distinction is not present - this is why it's referred to as nonnduality. When we rest into the present moment deeply enough, anything can be cleared. When the mind is no longer holding on everything can liberate effortlessly. It won't often be one and done however. These things can run deep and be very sticky... We continue with patience and joyful intention. And sometimes maybe it’s not so easy!

 

I just came across this excerpt in the most recent book from Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, The Seven Mirrors of Dzogchen:

     "An important point is, don't try to renounce or deny or reject or run from samsara, from life. Don't renounce or run away from your experiences. For example, you make think, 'I'm free from this relationship and do not need it.' Good for you. But if you are running away from that relationship I'm sad for you. That is different.  Don't run away from yourself, from your pain, from the stories that pain has created, from conflicts and wounds this has caused, from someone you have hurt. Whatever you experience, think, or feel, don't run way. You are good. You are capable. You are doctor, healer, psychologist, therapist, yogi. If you need any of these things, stay with yourself and find these things within. 

 

3 hours ago, stirling said:

In Buddhism all appearances, be they thoughts, feelings, objects, etc. arise in the dharmakaya.

 

     So don't resist appearances or experiences. They are the ornament of the dharmakaya. Don't look for something wrong in the cloud; the cloud is an ornament of the sky. Don't reject joy or pain; they are the glow of light, the glow of our inner awareness.

     Here in the teachings it says these feelings are ornaments. All your experiences are ornaments of your life. They make you beautiful, make you elegant, make you smile, make you gentle, make you cry. They make you feel vulnerable, they make you feel playful. All these experiences are beautiful.

     Why? First of all, it is your genuine experience. How can something be wrong when you openly and freely feel something in your heart, in your body and mind and emotions? The only thing wrong is when you see it as wrong. That is the error we fall into and the place we get stuck for many years. That is the place where we are not able to come out and transcend, change, and find new life."

 

 

[doc benway]

46 minutes ago, Bindi said:

What if you had the choice of action, say you were a naturally gifted healer who was also a nondualist and someone in your family is dying from cancer, or bed-ridden and suffering, do you say ahh, such is life let’s embrace this moment, or do you wave your hand over them and heal them? What would a disabled nondualist choose, the healing or accepting things exactly as they are? 

 

This comes back to what does wu wei mean? It’s not like that, we don’t sit around and wait to die. The approach is to get the emotional baggage and mind games out of the way and be open and fully connected to the present moment. If someone is dying and I can help them of course it will happen. It will be effortless and fully engaged because it is needed and no one is blocking it with second guessing and hesitation due to insecurity. If a child is drowning I’ll jump in without hesitation unless I stop to think about me and how I’m putting my self at risk and blah… blah… and start to engage with the fear.

 

Accepting doesn’t mean to do nothing. It means to recognize and react, if necessary, to what is actually present in this very moment. It means to not argue with the cloud in the sky. It is there. Accepting means not struggling against circumstances we are faced with because they’re not what we want to deal with. We face them and deal with them as best we can. If nothing is needed we don’t add anything, we abide. If something is needed, we don’t interfere and it will happen.

 

I would suggest a thought experiment. Every time you think, say, or type “non-duality,” replace it with “being fully present in this very moment.” Replace non-dualist with “one who is fully present in this very moment.” See what that feels like. We do not attach to nonduality. It is not a thing one can attach to or do. To do so is an error. In talking about it we objectify and define it and that simply doesn’t work. 

[doc benway]

34 minutes ago, Bindi said:

A Nondualist walks into a bar where a man shining with ineffable light is drinking a beer, everyone in the bar is astounded and thinks they are seeing the face of God, and the Nondualist says Meh, a visible light body, how very dual.

 

I would probably say something like “WOW, you are shining with the light of the face of God, what are you drinking?!” and buy a round for the house. That shit happens once in a lifetime, something beautiful will emerge for sure!

🤩

🥳

🤓

[Bindi]

6 minutes ago, steve said:

 

This comes back to what does wu wei mean? It’s not like that, we don’t sit around and wait to die. The approach is to get the emotional baggage and mind games out of the way and be open and fully connected to the present moment. If someone is dying and I can help them of course it will happen. It will be effortless and fully engaged because it is needed and no one is blocking it with second guessing and hesitation due to insecurity. If a child is drowning I’ll jump in without hesitation unless I stop to think about me and how I’m putting my self at risk and blah… blah… and start to engage with the fear.

 

Accepting doesn’t mean to do nothing. It means to recognize and react, if necessary, to what is actually present in this very moment. It means to not argue with the cloud in the sky. It is there. It is not struggling against circumstances because they’re not what we want to deal with.

 

I would suggest a thought experiment. Every time you think, say, or type “non-duality,” replace it with “being fully present in this very moment.” Replace non-dualist with “one who is fully present in this very moment.” See what that feels like. We do not attach to nonduality. It is not a thing one can attach to or do. To do so is an error. In talking about it we objective and define it and that simply doesn’t work. 

How attached self-proclaimed nondualists are to nonduality is a question nondualists should ask themselves, often. One who is fully present in this very moment is fresher, I recall this was one of the attributes of anandamaya kosha, being present in the moment, fully absorbed in the task at hand. 
 

 

[doc benway]

7 minutes ago, Bindi said:

fully absorbed in the task at hand. 
 

 

The absorption I’m referring too has a much wider aperture. The focus is not narrowed down to a particular task. Certainly there is awareness of the task at hand but the attention is fully open. It’s different than a doer being absorbed in what is being done. Not sure I can express this well. And it takes a lot of skill to be able to maintain this degree of connection and engage in activities. This is cultivated over time until it is as continuous as possible. 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

I would probably say something like “WOW, you are shining with the light of the face of God, what are you drinking?!” and buy a round for the house. That shit happens once in a lifetime, something beautiful will emerge for sure!

🤩

🥳

🤓

I would also save some electricity and turn off artificial lights in the bar.  
why shouldn’t everyone get to bask in effulgence emanating from said person? 

[dwai]

There is a daoist sequence that I found very helpful. I was taught it as follows - “let it be”, “let it come”, “let it go”. It is done while holding a specific posture in dao gong. It works on making the individual “empty”.

 

“Let it be” implies cultivating the state of mind in which whatever is, should be left as is. Don’t interfere.

 

“Let it come” or “receive” implies whatever arises, let it come. 
 

“Let it go” implies let go of any attachments. Doing this over a period of time, certain things, like self judgement, guilt, etc were released. The mind and subtle energy/body work together/in tandem. 

 

[old3bob]

hmm, just a moment before Dwai's post this came to me...

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by old3bob

[manitou]

On 6/10/2022 at 12:44 PM, stirling said:

Awakening is like seeing that the Wizard of Oz is just a guy behind a curtain.

 

 

YESSSS!  (Fist pump)

 

I say this all the time!  It is such a perfect metaphor  

[manitou]

On 6/10/2022 at 12:31 PM, stirling said:

The subtle form of a fear is a duality. 

 

 

This is very interesting, Stirling!  As the fear of death lies at the bottom of all fears, it stands to reason that this is the case.  I wonder if the one feared the two, and then the ten thousand in some subtle way.  I shouldn't even put it in the past.  It's all now, still happening.

 

Still happening.

 

Still happening.

[manitou]

23 hours ago, steve said:

This is cultivated over time until it is as continuous as possible. 

 

 

The catch-22 of it!   The human condition.  The dual human side of me asks....

 

Why?     Why?     Why?

 

The integrated flip side of the coin says

 

 

Because.  Because.  Because.

 

 

 

 

Also, for your daily dose of synchronicity:

 

A rare Stradivarius violin that belonged to a Russian-American virtuoso and was used in the "Wizard of Oz" soundtrack sold at auction in New York Thursday for $15.3 million, just below the record for such an instrument, according to auction house Tarisio.

The violin, made in 1714 by master craftsman Antonio Stradivari, belonged to virtuoso Toscha Seidel, who not only used it on the score for the 1939 Hollywood classic, but also no doubt while teaching his famous student Albert Einstein.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by manitou

[old3bob]

Creation, in time & space are not something to destroy or deny,  but something to be free in...

 

[Bindi]

‘I’ sit on a lotus in my heart, but without the bottle or the mudra or the halo…

 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Bindi

[doc benway]

On 6/10/2022 at 3:31 PM, stirling said:

Anyone with non-dual realization is going to tell you that it is the absolute reality. Buddhisms explanation of this is the "Two Truths Doctrine", where both exist, but the Absolute Truth includes and supersedes the Relative Truth.

 

I don't disagree with this but it is a point I've sat with over time and I'm pulled this way and that a bit regarding how I feel about it. 

To whatever degree I continue to be connected to the comings and goings of relative experience, and that's still quite a bit, it is important and valuable to put both truths on an equal footing for me. While I have and continue to feel the power of the absolute, it is not all that there is for me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I emphasize the absolute that risk of bypassing and grasping is more likely to be problematic and I can say with confidence that goes on for me. Dzogchen is not a path of renunciation. I need to be able to connect to the relative experience because the only way to avoid bypassing is to access the absolute by going through the relative. Otherwise, too much opportunity to run away, to suppress or avoid and to grasp at the comfort and power of the absolute. This conversation has shown me a few things I'm grateful for and this is one. Anyway, I'm just rambling a bit here. I feel very fortunate to have this connection and to be able to discuss this precious and elusive topic with all of you!

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

‘I’ sit on a lotus in my heart, but without the bottle or the mudra or the halo…

 

 

 

Btw. many Hindu, Buddhist and other ways depict heavenly beings that they have seen via 3rd eye vision in this way which I can also give witness of.  Also as you probably already know when Ida and pingala merge it results in a sushamna energized halo/circuit.

[Bindi]

49 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

Btw. many Hindu, Buddhist and other ways depict heavenly beings that they have seen via 3rd eye vision in this way which I can also give witness of.

 

Agreed, though I suspect these beings are representations of the Self. 

 

49 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

  Also as you probably already know when Ida and pingala merge it results in a sushamna energized halo/circuit.

3bob, I did not know that, but it allows me to make sense of when Ida and Pingala are cleared and merge in the heart, this Self on the lotus is revealed. I suppose the halo appears when Ida and Pingala are cleared and merge in the head, not something I have achieved yet. 

[dawn90]

Quote

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

 

[manitou]

28 minutes ago, dawn90 said:

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches.  I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star

 

 

I've thought a lot about Jesus.  I was brought up worshipping him, and then got away from him.  When I got sober 40 years ago, I became a born-again Christian, sort of picking up where I had left off years prior.  That was just my path - although an alcoholic one, surprisingly spiritual, but it has brought me here to you, dawn90.

 

Do you ever wonder what it is in man's heart that, regardless of where in the world he/she was born, there is something that questions?  Something that propels us upward?  It started to bother me that a person on the other side of the earth was as equally convinced that their path was the only righteous one, as I was about Christianity.  I remained in a us vs. them sort of mindset for a few years, until the workings of recovery had its way with me.  I came to realize that it's all one Big Question that resides in the heart of man, regardless of where they were born and into which faith.  That question (ultimately, it boils down to Who Am I?) is the great equalizer, I've found.

 

Faith.  There's a topic.  I was a victim to blind faith, believing in exactly what my parents had taught me to believe.  But when the process of stripping away conditioning (it was really necessary in my case, to stay away from alcohol) I started to see a larger view of things.  I came to realize that blind faith has an upper lid on it.  That dogma of any shape or form is limiting.  What I understand today, is that if a particular belief doesn't include each and every man and woman on the planet, that it's flawed.

 

You obviously have a great deal of faith in your heart, and a great deal of love.  I am very glad that you're here.  I'm guessing that one of two things is happening with you?  Either you happened on this site, took pity on us poor heathens, and determined to set us straight.  Or, in the alternative, you have found the upper lid on the Christian dogma, even if you don't recognize it quite yet.  Something keeps you coming back to us, a pretty dogma-free bunch.  I think the one thing that does bind together most of us on this site is our discovery and love of the Dao de Jing - such a small little book with such profound wisdom - a wisdom that, when followed, irons out one's life in amazing ways.  If you're not familiar with this little book, I would heartily recommend it to you.  My suggestion, as to which interpreter, might be Stephen Mitchell for you - he appeals a lot to the western mind, and he's pretty down to earth.  A real good place to begin, IMO.

 

This will not conflict with your love of Jesus, or your Christian foundation at all.  Rather, it will take the lid off the ceiling of your faith (which apparently you've hit or you wouldn't be here!) and you will integrate the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount in a deeper way than you ever probably have!  Love your brother as yourself?  Why did he say that?  Because we are all One.  Judge not, lest ye be judged?  Because we are all one spirit, Jesus recognized that given the same conditioning, the same schooling, the same parents, the same life lessons.....that we would be doing exactly what that person 'sinning' is doing.  To judge another is to cut off our own hand.

 

Jesus was the son of god.  He realized that.  But what he also realized is that you are too!  The only difference between you and him is that he realized it and you don't yet.  You're still worshipping a man that didn't want to be worshipped at all!  It wasn't about worshipping his figure or his frame or his deeds - it was about achieving our own self-awareness.  When he said 'Be still and know I Am God', this was meant to be the voice inside you!  Yes, you!  He wasn't talking about his personal conditioned self.  He was speaking of the communal 'I', the merging of the spirit of all of us as One being.  Sort of like we're all the same water being poured into different glasses, that's all.

 

Hope I didn't offend you, friend.  Please stick around, and consider taking a look at the DDJ.  At least you'll have a clue as to what we're talking about in this friendly little place.

[dawn90]

I use several systems - I think you have me confused with someone else. I just put that quote because it made me feel he was talking about the heart somehow; I was connecting it to Bindi's post.

 

David's star.

 

[dawn90]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

Hope I didn't offend you, friend.  Please stick around, and consider taking a look at the DDJ.  At least you'll have a clue as to what we're talking about in this friendly little place.

 

 

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Agreed, though I suspect these beings are representations of the Self. 

 

3bob, I did not know that, but it allows me to make sense of when Ida and Pingala are cleared and merge in the heart, this Self on the lotus is revealed. I suppose the halo appears when Ida and Pingala are cleared and merge in the head, not something I have achieved yet. 

 

One could say representations, and one could also say real beings or real souls thus not just symbolic like archetypes if that is what you meant?

[manitou]

9 hours ago, dawn90 said:

 

 

 

 

Excellent clip!  I guess we can choose to be the Sage or the Jedi.  

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by manitou