Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[dwai]

To claim that the “Self” has any particular seat in a physical or subtle body is not accurate.  It is often presented to be in the spiritual heart or 3rd eye or above the crown point but really they are just methods to help focus the mind.
This is very common in esoteric traditions where contradictory/paradoxical things are taught based on maturity of the practitioner. 

 

The Self permeates everything. It doesn’t have any particular seat. 

[old3bob]

(I'd say not warm and fuzzy if or when we go astray)

 

"Mahākāla is a deity common to Hinduism and Tantric Buddhism.[1] In Buddhism, Mahākāla is regarded as the sacred dharmapala. While in Hinduism, Mahākāla is a fierce manifestation of Shiva.[1] and is the consort of the goddess Mahākālī; he most prominently appears in the Kalikula sect of Shaktism.[2][3][4] Mahākāla also appears as a protector deity known as a dharmapala in Vajrayana, Chinese Esoteric, and Tibetan Buddhism[1] (see Citipati), and also in the Chàn and Shingon traditions. He is known as Dàhēitiān and Daaih'hāktīn (大黑天) in Mandarin and Cantonese, Daeheukcheon (대흑천) in Korean, Đại Hắc Thiên in Vietnamese, and Daikokuten (大黒天) in Japanese." 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

14 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

I suppose the halo appears when Ida and Pingala are cleared and merge in the head, not something I have achieved yet. 

 

 

I think Alexandra David-Neel mentions in "Magic and Mystery in Tibet" a Tibetan belief that only one sage is necessary in a particular territory to keep the weather right.  Also, maybe from the same source, that those who affect the weather this way often take to living in the desert.

Why would they do that, take to living in the desert.  I would guess because when they are in good health, they bring the sun out, and that's not necessarily a good thing all the time.  Maybe that has something to do with the halo.

Another angle.  Gautama spoke of a practice for the development of psychic powers, that went like this:

 

So he abides fully conscious of what is behind and what is in front.
As (he is conscious of what is) in front, so behind: as behind, so in front;
as below, so above: as above, so below:
as by day, so by night: as by night, so by day.
Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy.

 

(Sanyutta-Nikaya V 263, Pali Text Society V 5 p 235)

 

What I wrote about the last line (the full commentary is here):

 

“Thus with wits alert, with wits unhampered, he cultivates his mind to brilliancy”: Gautama explained that a monk “cultivates his mind to brilliancy” when the monk’s “consciousness of light is well grasped, his consciousness of daylight is well-sustained.”

 

When consciousness leads the balance of the body to open the ability of nerves to feel, sensory awareness is heightened, and through heightened awareness the sense of location as consciousness occurs is sharpened.

 

As to the “consciousness of light” or of “daylight”, the gland which is perhaps most responsive to daylight in the body is the pineal gland (the pineal produces melatonin), and the gland is supported by a bone in the interior of the skull (the sphenoid) that flexes and extends with the rhythm of the cranial-sacral fluid. The bases of psychic power were desire, energy, thought, and investigation (together with the co-factors of concentration and struggle), and they were to be cultivated by the use of the four-part method described in Gautama’s stanza. Whether or not there is a way to perform miracles and see the past lives or karmic fate of others, I can’t say; that there may be a way to bring about psychic experience through a “consciousness of daylight”, and possibly the occurrence of consciousness at the place where daylight most affects the endocrinology of the body, I would guess could be (although the precise nature of that phenomena may not be what it was thought to be in 500 B.C.E, as for example, the miracle of “handling and stroking the sun and moon with the hand”).

 

 

[Mark Foote]

On 6/10/2022 at 2:07 PM, Mark Foote said:

 

More on Roshi-sama's reply to Jiryu Mark's "objectless meditation" ("only point here", fist on belly):

 

I think I should have quoted what Roshi-sama said exactly (or at least, what he said according to Jiryu Mark):  “No grasping—only point here.”
 

When I'm not grasping anything, so that my consciousness is unstationed, then as koun Franz said my mind tends to move to my center of balance.  When I sit cross-legged, or otherwise adopt a bent-knee posture, that center of balance tends to be below and behind the navel.  Roughly the hara.  

Nevertheless, the trick is crossing through the suffocation response, the way Navy Seals and other free-divers do:

 

My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. He was trained to do so in a manner similar to how they train Navy Seals. They are able to do relaxation techniques and override their body’s impulse to panic. I’m not sure if everyone can accomplish this or if they are outliers. But one important point that I think fits into the topic here. They have to be wary of something called shallow water blackout. They will hold their breath without the panic response literally until they pass out underwater, and drown (even if they are only sitting on the bottom of a pool with a foot or two of water above them).

 

(more on that, and the source of the quote above, here)

 

 

It's "no grasping", that frees the location of self-awareness to move in an inhalation or an exhalation, and results in a one-pointedness of mind at the hara ("only point here").  On the dance floor, taking the people in the room and on the other side of the wall into the location of self-awareness, "only point" moves more.

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

To claim that the “Self” has any particular seat in a physical or subtle body is not accurate.  It is often presented to be in the spiritual heart or 3rd eye or above the crown point but really they are just methods to help focus the mind.
This is very common in esoteric traditions where contradictory/paradoxical things are taught based on maturity of the practitioner. 

 

The Self permeates everything. It doesn’t have any particular seat. 

The foetus of neidan is not a focusing method, it is a fundamental aspect of the whole endeavour. This foetus develops and matures, and in the end can be sent out into the world at will after it has been brought up to the head. This might be a million miles away from your belief system, but your belief system is not the final word in what is possible/real on the subtle body level. 
 

This Self that sits on a lotus in the heart is a potential in the subtle body that can only be realised when the flower itself Is brought into place, the flower faces downwards and clearing Ida specifically allows it to travel and face upwards. This is visible to those with subtle sight, and the sort of happening that can cross different religions and cultures because it is real on the subtle body level. To be sure nonduality doesn’t cultivate the subtle energy body in this fashion, and has no interest in cultivating the subtle energy body in this fashion, but my interest in clearing the subtle Nadi’s does allow exactly this as one step on the way to actualising the immortal body. 
 

[dwai]

Just now, Bindi said:

The foetus of neidan is not a focusing method, it is a fundamental aspect of the whole endeavour. This foetus develops and matures, and in the end can be sent out into the world at will after it has been brought up to the head. This might be a million miles away from your belief system, but your belief system is not the final word in what is possible/real on the subtle body level. 
 

This Self that sits on a lotus in the heart is a potential in the subtle body that can only be realised when the flower itself Is brought into place, the flower faces downwards and clearing Ida specifically allows it to travel and face upwards. This is visible to those with subtle sight, and the sort of happening that can cross different religions and cultures because it is real on the subtle body level. To be sure nonduality doesn’t cultivate the subtle energy body in this fashion, and has no interest in cultivating the subtle energy body in this fashion, but my interest in clearing the subtle Nadi’s does allow exactly this as one step on the way to actualising the immortal body. 
 

As someone who’s spent a lot of time on cultivating the subtle body and can demonstrate some realistic applications thereof, as well as many interesting experiences, I humbly disagree with your perspective on Neidan  (and I’ve shared the same views on other threads as well). 

 

It is not as is often misunderstood as being something being created/birthed etc. it is about nondual/Self realization, but couched in symbolism and symbolic language. 

 

Spoiler

? Let us read the following passage which is an excerpt from Chuang Tzu, entitled “The Fasting of the Mind”, translated by Victor H. Mair

“I have nothing further to propose,” said Yen Hui. “I venture to ask you for a method.”

“Fasting,” said Confucius. “I shall explain it for you. If you do things with your mind, do you think it will be easy? Bright heaven will not approve one who thinks it will be easy.”

“My family is poor,” said Yen Hui, “and it’s been several months since I’ve drunk wine or tasted meat. May this be considered fasting?”

“This is fasting suitable for sacrifices, but it is not fasting of the mind.”

“I venture to ask what ‘fasting of the mind’ is,” said Hui.

“Concentrate your mind-will. Hear not with your ears, but with your mind; not with your mind, but with your Chi. Let your hearing stop with the ears, and let your mind stop with natural concordance. Chi, however, is vacuous and empty, accommodating all. There is none but Tao who dwells in the empty vacuity. And becoming empty and vacuous is the fasting of the mind.”

 “Before I am able to exercise fasting of the mind,” said Yen Hui, “I truly have an identity. But after I am able to exercise it, I will no longer have an identity. Can this be called emptiness?  “Exactly so!” replied the master. “Let me tell you. Enter and roam about this realm, but without any awareness of what the realm is. In the event of arrival in it sing in concert with it; in case of no arrival in it stop at the cessation. Let the door open and close, by its own course. House all as an undivided whole and lodge in that which takes the course all in its natural way. Then you are close to it. To leave no footprints is easy; to walk on no ground is difficult.

“If you are impelled by human feelings, it is easy to be false; if you are impelled by nature, it is hard to be false. I’ve only heard of creatures that fly with wings, never of creatures that fly with nonwings. I’ve only heard of people knowing things through awareness, never of people knowing things through unawareness. Observe the void – the empty room emits a pure light. Good fortune lies in stopping when it is time to stop. If you do not stop, this is called ‘galloping while sitting.’ Let your senses communicate within and rid yourself of the machinations of the mind. Then even myriad things are transformed. It is that to which Yao and Shun bound themselves, and that which Fuhsi and Chich’u exercised all their lives. All the more is it suited for the masses.”
The famous inner alchemist Chen Yingning once wrote 24 stanzas  of NeiDan poetry. Below, we have selected two for your appreciation:

The first poem

Ultimate reality shines forth, illuminating the grains of sand which line the banks of the river Ganges
Those of the world, the sages, the enlightened, all, at their origin, sharing one common source.
Each, when free of thoughts arising, converging in stillness towards complete expression,
Yet, when moved by just one single sense, is already eclipsed by clouds.

Ridding oneself of all affliction. And to what end? The addition of illness!
Drawing near to true thusness. And to what end? The emergence of a diverging path!

Meekly following the predestined relationship as it arises and keeping the mind free of hindrance. And to what end?

Nirvāna, birth and death, do but compare to hollow flowers floating in the air. 

The second poem 

Overcome emptiness, free yourself of accumulated kalpa and endure for a billion years, 

Bid farewell to the canoe that ferried us to the far shore.

End your endless search for the countless tomes written on immortality, even though you know the final words have not yet been composed.

 

[Bindi]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

As someone who’s spent a lot of time on cultivating the subtle body and can demonstrate some realistic applications thereof, as well as many interesting experiences, I humbly disagree with your perspective on Neidan  (and I’ve shared the same views on other threads as well). 

At best we can both humbly disagree with each other. 

 

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

It is not as is often misunderstood as being something being created/birthed etc. it is about nondual/Self realization, but couched in symbolism and symbolic language. 
 

 

This is your belief system yes. My path tells me otherwise. 

 

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

? Let us read the following passage which is an excerpt from Chuang Tzu, entitled “The Fasting of the Mind”, translated by Victor H. Mair

“I have nothing further to propose,” said Yen Hui. “I venture to ask you for a method.”

“Fasting,” said Confucius. “I shall explain it for you. If you do things with your mind, do you think it will be easy? Bright heaven will not approve one who thinks it will be easy.”

“My family is poor,” said Yen Hui, “and it’s been several months since I’ve drunk wine or tasted meat. May this be considered fasting?”

“This is fasting suitable for sacrifices, but it is not fasting of the mind.”

“I venture to ask what ‘fasting of the mind’ is,” said Hui.

“Concentrate your mind-will. Hear not with your ears, but with your mind; not with your mind, but with your Chi. Let your hearing stop with the ears, and let your mind stop with natural concordance. Chi, however, is vacuous and empty, accommodating all. There is none but Tao who dwells in the empty vacuity. And becoming empty and vacuous is the fasting of the mind.”

 “Before I am able to exercise fasting of the mind,” said Yen Hui, “I truly have an identity. But after I am able to exercise it, I will no longer have an identity. Can this be called emptiness?  “Exactly so!” replied the master. “Let me tell you. Enter and roam about this realm, but without any awareness of what the realm is. In the event of arrival in it sing in concert with it; in case of no arrival in it stop at the cessation. Let the door open and close, by its own course. House all as an undivided whole and lodge in that which takes the course all in its natural way. Then you are close to it. To leave no footprints is easy; to walk on no ground is difficult.

“If you are impelled by human feelings, it is easy to be false; if you are impelled by nature, it is hard to be false. I’ve only heard of creatures that fly with wings, never of creatures that fly with nonwings. I’ve only heard of people knowing things through awareness, never of people knowing things through unawareness. Observe the void – the empty room emits a pure light. Good fortune lies in stopping when it is time to stop. If you do not stop, this is called ‘galloping while sitting.’ Let your senses communicate within and rid yourself of the machinations of the mind. Then even myriad things are transformed. It is that to which Yao and Shun bound themselves, and that which Fuhsi and Chich’u exercised all their lives. All the more is it suited for the masses.”
The famous inner alchemist Chen Yingning once wrote 24 stanzas  of NeiDan poetry. Below, we have selected two for your appreciation:

The first poem

Ultimate reality shines forth, illuminating the grains of sand which line the banks of the river Ganges
Those of the world, the sages, the enlightened, all, at their origin, sharing one common source.
Each, when free of thoughts arising, converging in stillness towards complete expression,
Yet, when moved by just one single sense, is already eclipsed by clouds.

Ridding oneself of all affliction. And to what end? The addition of illness!
Drawing near to true thusness. And to what end? The emergence of a diverging path!

Meekly following the predestined relationship as it arises and keeping the mind free of hindrance. And to what end?

Nirvāna, birth and death, do but compare to hollow flowers floating in the air. 

The second poem 

Overcome emptiness, free yourself of accumulated kalpa and endure for a billion years, 

Bid farewell to the canoe that ferried us to the far shore.

End your endless search for the countless tomes written on immortality, even though you know the final words have not yet been composed.

 

 

[Bindi]

A technique for feeling painful feelings.

 

I’ve been actively working with stored painful feelings for literally decades, and I still have to remind myself to feel a painful feeling in the present, because I believe we are naturally pain averse, as the linked blog suggests. 
 

I have a difficult situation at work, and I’m having painful feelings about it, I woke up early because of it and couldn’t get back to sleep, that was four hours ago, and only now, four hours later, have I remembered to allow the painful feeling, it’s like I had to get through the fear of emotional pain first before I could accept feeling this feeling, and it has eased the pain a little, and allows a little more objectivity about the actual work issue, a little more neutrality. Almost in the now, just a four hour lag 😄

[Cobie]

 

 

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

… Almost in the now …

I didn’t look at the link, so the like is not for that. It’s for the quoted bit, that made me laugh. Ha, ha, “Almost in the now”. Yes, very recognisable that.  Good luck with the work issue. : )
 

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Cobie

[old3bob]

 

"Because nondual philosophy is so absolute siddhis are not of any import..."  By Bindi

 

I've heard masters call siddhis (when used correctly) as being "tools of the trade" so still  important as benefits that can be used to help students,  yet not to get hung up with them nor to deny them.   Also it is not that they own spiritual power for their own purpose's, but that the power has them willingly for its greater purpose.

Edited June 13, 2022 by old3bob

[liminal_luke]

On 6/7/2022 at 5:50 PM, steve said:

 

It's OK to be afraid and it's even OK to be smug. 

 

 

Almost a week later, I find my mind going back to this sentence.  It's beautiful to think that it might be OK to be smug.  Not that smugness is necessarily good or anything, not that it's a quality to be cultivated, but that I can accept my smugness and go on to live another day.  Such a rare blessing.  

[manitou]

On 6/12/2022 at 12:53 PM, dwai said:

Each, when free of thoughts arising, converging in stillness towards complete expression,
Yet, when moved by just one single sense, is already eclipsed by clouds.

 

 

This reminds me of so many conversations we've had here about attachments.  When there is no attachment to an outcome, or to a hope, stillness is felt.  It can be lived.  It seems to me that it all comes down to acceptance of what is.  And when it is finally recognized that all things are of the same source,  (even source isn't quite the right word, as there is an implication of time passing)  there is nothing to get upset about.  As I see it, anxiousness can be bypassed because it's already happened, if linear time is nothing more than planetary rotation.  No rotation, no time.  No expectations of anyone.

 

 

[stirling]

On 6/10/2022 at 2:07 PM, Mark Foote said:

Quote

“Shikantaza not here,” he insisted in elementary English, pointing to his head. “Not here,” he continued, pointing to his heart. “Only point here!” He drove his fist into his lower belly, the energy center that the Japanese call hara.- (“Two Shores of Zen”, by Jiryu Mark Rutschman-Byler; emphasis added)

 

I dunno what he is going on about there. Realization is that there is no "there" there. Perhaps this is the offering of some relative practice as skillful means? I sit with an authorized teacher of the late Katagiri Roshi and he also says that he received instruction to watch the breath sink on the inhale down to the "hara" as a practice. No great emphasis on it, but just received it one day in dokusan. 

 

Quote

 

At the same time, Rujing doesn’t abandon the distinction of inhalation and exhalation nor some particulars in the movement of each: he says that inhalation “enters”, then “reaches” the tanden (“yet there is no place from which it comes”); likewise, he says that exhalation “emerges” from the tanden (“yet there is nowhere it goes”). To comprehend “enters” as distinct from “reaches” and to comprehend “emerges” may amount to a comprehension of inhalation or exhalation very similar to that offered by “long” or “short”.

 

(yours truly, Shikantaza and Gautama the Buddha’s “Pleasant Way of Living”)

 

 

That would be a non-dual teaching. Pointing, I think, at "nowness", perhaps?

Edited June 14, 2022 by stirling

[stirling]

On 6/10/2022 at 2:49 PM, Bindi said:

The neidanist would say transmutation of the body is exactly what is required with the production of the immortal body, I think I would be able to present this as a Christian ideal as well in the transfiguration of Jesus when he reveals himself as an ineffable/indescribable manifestation of light and glory in the physical dimension. Jonathon Livingston seagull would also concur, but Buddha and Buddhists and nondenominational nondualists believe that this is not it. It may be that it is simply not a Buddhist or a nondualist attainment, therefore devalued. A well thought out philosophy will cover itself.

 

Yes, I understand. 

 

Realization IS a transmutation of your understanding of everything. Not an actual change to anything except how things are seen. I honestly think the story of neidanism, or Jesus fit perfectly into non-dual understanding. Christianity has a number of non-dual pointers, IMHO. Those with real non-dual realization at the level of "no-self" don't devalue anything that arises, but rather want to be helpful and see suffering diminished. Any well-thought out philosophy is just a new story in duality. 

 

Quote

A Nondualist walks into a bar where a man shining with ineffable light is drinking a beer, everyone in the bar is astounded and thinks they are seeing the face of God, and the Nondualist says Meh, a visible light body, how very dual. 

 

A Nondualist walks into a bar where a man shining with ineffable light is drinking a beer, everyone in the bar is astounded and thinks they are seeing the face of God, and the realized being smiles at the sheer beauty and variety of experiencing in this moment. 
 

Quote

Because nondual philosophy is so absolute siddhis ar not of any import, but if someone is suffering physically and someone comes along who can remove their pain, cure their blindness, help them to walk again, is that really of no import? It is more noble to let the physically disabled remain disabled and in pain because the body is nothing anyway? 

 

I honestly don't know where you get all of this. Forgive me, but you seem so bitter, like realized beings are Nazis that stole the bread out of your house and burnt it to the ground. What is it that makes you so angry at the "non-dualist" paper tiger?

 

Siddhis can be useful.  I know teachers who use their psychic ability to read students and better help them have insight into themselves. I know realized teachers that have gone to protests, helped in villages in Puerto Rico, ministered to the Tibetan diaspora and more. What on earth would make you think that a realized being sits by and watches others in their proximity suffer? It is absolutely the opposite. Realized beings help where they are. 

 

Quote

What if you had the choice of action, say you were a naturally gifted healer who was also a nondualist and someone in your family is dying from cancer, or bed-ridden and suffering, do you say ahh, such is life let’s embrace this moment, or do you wave your hand over them and heal them? What would a disabled nondualist choose, the healing or accepting things exactly as they are? 

 

One of my late transmitted teachers did distance healing. I don't know that it definitely worked or didn't, but she felt it did and her intention was absolutely to be helpful. She had lived for many years without a house. She regularly went to the shelters to help, and one particular hospice for the unhoused who were dying and just spent time with them. She was intensely, fiercely kind. 

 

This anger and resentment in you is definitely something worthy of your investigation.

[stirling]

On 6/10/2022 at 3:21 PM, steve said:

I would suggest a thought experiment. Every time you think, say, or type “non-duality,” replace it with “being fully present in this very moment.” Replace non-dualist with “one who is fully present in this very moment.” See what that feels like. We do not attach to nonduality. It is not a thing one can attach to or do. To do so is an error. In talking about it we objectify and define it and that simply doesn’t work. 

 

Fan-fucking-tastic!

 

Deep bows to you, Steve.

[silent thunder]

On 6/10/2022 at 3:21 PM, steve said:

I would suggest a thought experiment. Every time you think, say, or type “non-duality,” replace it with “being fully present in this very moment.” Replace non-dualist with “one who is fully present in this very moment.” See what that feels like. We do not attach to nonduality. It is not a thing one can attach to or do. To do so is an error. In talking about it we objectify and define it and that simply doesn’t work. 

[stirling]

On 6/11/2022 at 5:18 PM, steve said:

I don't disagree with this but it is a point I've sat with over time and I'm pulled this way and that a bit regarding how I feel about it. 

To whatever degree I continue to be connected to the comings and goings of relative experience, and that's still quite a bit, it is important and valuable to put both truths on an equal footing for me. While I have and continue to feel the power of the absolute, it is not all that there is for me. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I emphasize the absolute that risk of bypassing and grasping is more likely to be problematic and I can say with confidence that goes on for me. Dzogchen is not a path of renunciation. I need to be able to connect to the relative experience because the only way to avoid bypassing is to access the absolute by going through the relative. Otherwise, too much opportunity to run away, to suppress or avoid and to grasp at the comfort and power of the absolute. This conversation has shown me a few things I'm grateful for and this is one. Anyway, I'm just rambling a bit here. I feel very fortunate to have this connection and to be able to discuss this precious and elusive topic with all of you!

 

I think of it like this:

 

Imagine it is 6AM and there is a still, empty playing field. If we come back at 9AM and there are kids playing a game, parents looking on, a food vendor. There is the story of winning or losing the match. A girl catches a teenage boys eye - what happens next? Food is handed to a parent and money is exchanged. A bird chases another bird. A bee alights from a dandelion, The story of the world plays out on the field, but always underneath is the "stage", the still grassy space where it plays out. 

 

The story needs the omnipresent "space" to play out in. The story arises from the "space" itself, and dissolves into it again when elements of the story, or subplots dissolve. The story, relative reality, is in constant flux as elements come and go, arise and pass, always present in this moment but completely gone when they dissipate. The field, absolute reality, is always there, an empty canvas where the story can manifest. They are never truly separate - not a duality, and yet the bottom layer is always the absolute, unmanifest and unchanging.

 

Meditation is relevant as a tool because we can watch relative reality and see its impermanence manifest in real time. With practice our "story" starts to drop out for brief periods. We can see glimpses of the substrat - the dharmakaya, the absolute. The difference between the two? The absolute is ALWAYS present. If you let the relative drop out, the absolute is always there, still and quiet. 

 

This is the entirety of the wisdom. Even with "no-self", the story continues, BUT there is deep and permanent seeing of the absolute, always present, always the container and generator of the story, flavoring the relative in ways you never imagined. The feeling of needing to chose is something we can relax about. Things just "are". Even the duality of the relative and absolute dissolves and is resolved.

Edited June 14, 2022 by stirling

[Apech]

6 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I think of it like this:

 

Imagine it is 6AM and there is a still, empty playing field. If we come back at 9AM and there are kids playing a game, parents looking on, a food vendor. There is the story of winning or losing the match. A girl catches a teenage boys eye - what happens next? Food is handed to a parent and money is exchanged. A bird chases another bird. A bee alights from a dandelion, The story of the world plays out on the field, but always underneath is the "stage", the still grassy space where it plays out. 

 

The story needs the omnipresent "space" to play out in. The story arises from the "space" itself, and dissolves into it again when elements of the story, or subplots dissolve. The story, relative reality, is in constant flux as elements come and go, arise and pass, always present in this moment but completely gone when they dissipate. The field, absolute reality, is always there, an empty canvas where the story can manifest. They are never truly separate - not a duality, and yet the bottom layer is always the absolute. 

 

Meditation is relevant as a tool because we can watch relative reality and see its impermanence manifest in real time. With practice our "story" starts to drop out for brief periods. We can see glimpses of the substrat - the dharmakaya, the absolute. The difference between the two? The absolute is ALWAYS present. If you let the relative drop out, the absolute is always there, still and quiet. 

 

This is the entirety of the wisdom. Even with "no-self", the story continues, BUT there is deep and permanent seeing of the absolute, always present, always the container and generator of the story, flavoring the relative in ways you never imagined. The feeling of needing to chose is something we can relax about. Things just "are". Even the duality of the relative and absolute dissolves and is resolved.

 

Yes but WHY? did the bee alight from a dandelion?

 

 

[natural]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Yes but WHY? did the bee alight from a dandelion?

 

 

 

To cross the road.

[stirling]

28 minutes ago, Apech said:

Yes but WHY? did the bee alight from a dandelion?

 

...WHAT bee?

 

[Apech]

41 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

...WHAT bee?

 

 

...what is!

[old3bob]

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

Yes but WHY? did the bee alight from a dandelion?

 

 

 

because the quantum bee on the other side of the universe moved its wings?

[old3bob]

thank God we have will, for without it we could not willfully choose between crapping our pants or using the bathroom,  among far greater issues!  (abstract, cosmic,  complex, philosophical and or mystical ruminations be dammed, I prefer and willfully choose the bathroom)

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by old3bob

[natural]

My nosy neighbor pounded on the front door and continually pressed my doorbell.

Upon answering the door, I was told a crow was attacking some small fledglings (birds of another species, cow birds to be exact) in one of my bushes.

 

Cowbirds are obligate parasites destroying other bird's offspring replacing their eggs with their own. 

Generally, I am lassize faire, live and let life follow its own destiny. 

But I sat on the porch for a bit with my canine companion, watching life unfold...

[old3bob]

did you mean to post the above on the other string?