Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[natural]

 

 

 

1 minute ago, old3bob said:

did you mean to post the above on the other string?

it depends...

[natural]

17 minutes ago, old3bob said:

did you mean to post the above on the other string?

 

I am not sure?

It was an attempt however, feeble or incorrect to be present in the moment?

I however remain open to suggestions, thank you in advance

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, natural said:

 

I am not sure?

It was an attempt however, feeble or incorrect to be present in the moment?

I however remain open to suggestions, thank you in advance

what if one remains in the present moment but it turns out to be completely shit, wouldn’t you move to the next present moment.

[natural]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

what if one remains in the present moment but it turns out to be completely shit, wouldn’t you move to the next present moment.

 

Watchful waiting?

Many of my moments result in very satisfying bowel movements.

Afterall it shouldn't hurt to poo!

[doc benway]

47 minutes ago, Apech said:

what if one remains in the present moment but it turns out to be completely shit, wouldn’t you move to the next present moment.

 

How does one move from one moment to the next? Or is it that one moves continuously to the present moment?

[natural]

3 minutes ago, steve said:

 

How does one move from one moment to the next? Or is it that one moves continuously to the present moment?

 

Well, I for one move on pretty quickly when I have the runs.

Not speaking for others but I suspect its more common than we are willing to admit.

[Mark Foote]

The "Mahamudra" and non-dualism in the Buddhist tradition, an historical note from Wikipedia ("Mahamudra"):
 

The actual practice and lineage of mahāmudrā can be traced back to wandering mahasiddhas or great adepts during the Indian Pala Dynasty (760-1142), beginning with the 8th century siddha Saraha.

 

Saraha's Dohas (songs or poems in rhyming couplets) are the earliest mahamudra literature extant, and promote some of the unique features of mahamudra such as the importance of Pointing-out instruction by a guru, the non-dual nature of mind, and the negation of conventional means of achieving enlightenment such as samatha-vipasyana meditation, monasticism, rituals, tantric practices and doctrinal study in favor of mahamudra 'non-meditation' and 'non-action'. Later Indian and Tibetan masters such as Padmavajra, Tilopa, and Gampopa incorporated mahamudra into tantric, monastic and traditional meditative frameworks.

 

I particularly like the bit about "non-meditation" and "non-action".   "The non-dual nature of mind", the self-awareness that can take place at the hara, especially in "non-meditation" when breathing becomes a "non-action".

More history I didn't know, from that most trustworthy of all sources (kidding), Wikipedia ("Tilopa"):

 

(Tilopa) became a holder of all the tantric lineages, possibly the only person in his day to do so. As well as the way of insight, and Mahamudra he learned and passed on the Way of Methods, today known as the 6 Yogas of Naropa, and guru yoga. Naropa is considered his main student.

 

He began to travel throughout India, receiving teachings from many gurus:

• from Saryapa he learned of inner heat (Sanskrit: caṇḍalī, Tib. tummo, inner heat);
• from Nagarjuna he received the radiant light (Sanskrit: prabashvara) and illusory body (Sanskrit: maya deha, Tib. gyulu) teachings (Cakrasaṃvara Tantra), Lagusamvara tantra, or Heruka Abhidharma;
• from Lawapa, the dream yoga;
• from Sukhasiddhi, the teachings on life, death, and the bardo (between life states, and consciousness transference) (phowa);
• from Indrabhuti, he learned of wisdom (prajña);
• and from Matangi, the resurrection of the dead body.

As advised by Matangi, Tilopa started to work at a brothel in Bengal for a prostitute called Dharima as her solicitor and bouncer. During the day, he was grinding sesame seeds for his living. During a meditation, he received a vision of Vajradhara and, according to legend, the entirety of mahamudra was directly transmitted to Tilopa. After receiving the transmission, Tilopa meditated in two caves, and bound himself with heavy chains to hold the correct meditation posture. He practiced for many years and then met the mind of all buddhas in the form of Diamond Holder Vajradhara. He is considered the grandfather of today's Kagyu Lineage. Naropa, his most important student, became his successor and carried and passed on the teachings.

 

Again from Wikipedia, an eye-witness account of Naropa:
 

I thought I would go see the Lord Naropa, since his reputation was so great. I went east from Magadha for a month, as I had heard that the Lord was staying in the monastery known as Phullahari. Very great merit arose from being able to go see him. On the day I arrived, they said some feudal prince had come to pay homage. So I went to the spot, and a great throne had been erected. I sat right in front of it. The whole crowd started buzzing, "The Lord is coming!" I looked and the Lord was physically quite corpulent, with his white hair [stained with henna] bright red, and a vermilion turban on. He was being carried [on a palanquin] by four men, and was chewing betel-leaf....

 

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

7 minutes ago, natural said:

 

Well, I for one move on pretty quickly when I have the runs.

Not speaking for others but I suspect its more common than we are willing to admit.

You’re not alone.

In this we are one.

[old3bob]

36 minutes ago, steve said:

 

How does one move from one moment to the next? Or is it that one moves continuously to the present moment?

 

well per the Upanishads the Self is so very fast (so to speak) that it is like standing still everywhere at once...

Edited June 14, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Yes, I understand. 

 

Realization IS a transmutation of your understanding of everything. Not an actual change to anything except how things are seen. I honestly think the story of neidanism, or Jesus fit perfectly into non-dual understanding. Christianity has a number of non-dual pointers, IMHO. Those with real non-dual realization at the level of "no-self" don't devalue anything that arises, but rather want to be helpful and see suffering diminished.

 

What of those with real non-dual realisation at the level of ‘Self’? 

 

Quote

Any well-thought out philosophy is just a new story in duality. 

 

 

Agreed.
 

Quote

 

A Nondualist walks into a bar where a man shining with ineffable light is drinking a beer, everyone in the bar is astounded and thinks they are seeing the face of God, and the realized being smiles at the sheer beauty and variety of experiencing in this moment. 

 

I honestly don't know where you get all of this. Forgive me, but you seem so bitter, like realized beings are Nazis that stole the bread out of your house and burnt it to the ground. What is it that makes you so angry at the "non-dualist" paper tiger?

 

 

Do you really believe that non-dualists are paper tigers? If so I rest my case  Definition of paper tiger : one that is outwardly powerful or dangerous but inwardly weak or ineffectual.

 

Quote

 

Siddhis can be useful.  I know teachers who use their psychic ability to read students and better help them have insight into themselves. I know realized teachers that have gone to protests, helped in villages in Puerto Rico, ministered to the Tibetan diaspora and more. What on earth would make you think that a realized being sits by and watches others in their proximity suffer? It is absolutely the opposite. Realized beings help where they are. 

 

 

One of my late transmitted teachers did distance healing. I don't know that it definitely worked or didn't, but she felt it did and her intention was absolutely to be helpful.
 

 

If her distance healing doesn’t work, even though her intention is to be helpful, I would find the whole endeavour to be deluded. 

 

Quote

She had lived for many years without a house. She regularly went to the shelters to help, and one particular hospice for the unhoused who were dying and just spent time with them. She was intensely, fiercely kind. 

 

 

Kind is good. 
 

Quote

 

This anger and resentment in you is definitely something worthy of your investigation.

Some beliefs/practices just make me cranky, for example, Conspiracy theory, dangerous cult practices, Islam, and the self-proclaimed nondually awakened. C’est la vie. 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, natural said:

 

Watchful waiting?

Many of my moments result in very satisfying bowel movements.

Afterall it shouldn't hurt to poo!

 

i don't remember if it was at this site or another butt there was once a guy who used the handle, "happy bowl movement", lol

[old3bob]

didn't know that yogi's did this as much as he is saying...and is something to consider since there is such a mixture of energies going on around most of us in many ways!

 

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

What of those with real non-dual realisation at the level of ‘Self’?

 

Realizing the "Self" is realizing the emptiness of "self", and vice-versa, its just a question of semantics that are, like all conceptual nonsense, meaningless.

 

Quote

Do you really believe that non-dualists are paper tigers? If so I rest my case  Definition of paper tiger : one that is outwardly powerful or dangerous but inwardly weak or ineffectual.

 

Haha! You caught me out! Why so much barely concealed bile?

 

All appearances in consciousness (including you and I) are paper tigers. Why would "non-dualists" or “being fully present in this very moments” get a pass?  

 

Quote

If her distance healing doesn’t work, even though her intention is to be helpful, I would find the whole endeavour to be deluded. 

 

I don't know that it helped or didn't help, but I AM certain you are giving short shrift to intention and its power, whether the results are obvious to you or not. 

 

Quote

Some beliefs/practices just make me cranky, for example, Conspiracy theory, dangerous cult practices, Islam, and the self-proclaimed nondually awakened. C’est la vie. 

 

Why would the "non-dualists" or “being fully present in this very moments” make you cranky?

[Bindi]

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Realizing the "Self" is realizing the emptiness of "self", and vice-versa, its just a question of semantics that are, like all conceptual nonsense, meaningless.

 

 

“self” is empty, but identification with a new “Self” beyond “self” would surely be just one more identification to a Buddhist or non-dualist. 
 

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Haha! You caught me out! Why so much barely concealed bile?

 

All appearances in consciousness (including you and I) are paper tigers. Why would "non-dualists" or “being fully present in this very moments” get a pass?  

 

 

I am an alchemical factory, not a paper tiger. You’r welcome to consider yourself a paper tiger. 

 

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I don't know that it helped or didn't help, but I AM certain you are giving short shrift to intention and its power, whether the results are obvious to you or not. 
 

 

Someone once described his accomplishment of the MCO as spinning his wheels. I think he was right, because it was just empty energy without “the medicine”. All the intention in the world could not produce “the medicine”. Same with healing, all the good intention in the world will not produce actual healing apart from a placebo effect. Empty achievements deluding self and others, until like my ‘someone’ above you have the guts to look within and say I am kidding myself, and in that moment one will be a little less deluded, until the next delusion comes by that one can hold onto of course. 

 

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Why would the "non-dualists" or “being fully present in this very moments” make you cranky?

Because of the shallowness of non-dual realisation. 

[manitou]

Kind is good.  The history and application of kindness in my own life is muddled.

 

I used to think that being kind was letting people walk all over me.  I used to think that being kind was buying drinks for people in a bar.  I used to think that being kind was not speaking my peace.  I used to think that being kind and enabling someone to stay sick were the same thing.  I used to think that founding an organization that gave homeless people money to make art was kind.  I used to think that trying to save people's souls was kind.  I used to think that 'looking for ways that I could help' was kind.

 

But those were all deeds, not kindness.  Kindness is here and now, kindness in the moment.  Kindness on an internet forum.  Realizing that people are living out their own karma, and they don't need me to interfere.  Kindness is fielding whatever comes at me with kindness, but not to go out looking for ways to be kind - in my case, that was just ego.

 

Sometimes the most unkind things said are really the most kind.  One day my police partner said 'You can go from a 10 to a 2 faster than any woman I've ever seen in my life'.  He was talking about my drinking.  It was not a kind thing to say.  But i never forgot it, and it was useful to me to get sober.

 

Someone pretty close to me is a bit of a deadbeat.  He never has money, he's not very well in several ways.  I am tempted to give him money, but I don't.  He can do better for himself than he does.  He can quit smoking cigarettes, which are nearly $10 a pack, for one.  But kindness, in this case, tells me to let him earn money when he's able.  He gets $50 to wash the dogs.  $20 to wash the kitchen floor.  Stuff like that.

 

It seems to be kinder to do it that way for a couple reasons.  He feels better about himself when I'm not doling out money.  I feel better about myself when I'm not doling out money.  My way of being kind in this particular case is to not-do.  I do not expect anything of him.  I say nothing if he sleeps all day in his room because he's taken too much of his medication.  I say nothing if he cancels an appointment either with me or someone else, I don't expect anything different from him.  One could say that I'm letting him walk all over me, but on the other hand I know he'd be living under a bridge if he weren't here.  So I let him stay.  But the funny thing is, that after 2 1/2 years of this, he is getting better all the way around.  It reminds me of that school in England, I think (can't remember the name at this moment) where kids are sent who have no ability to fit in or succeed anywhere else.  They get to the school, only to find out that absolutely nothing is expected of them!  They can cut class all day, not turn in assignments, nothing.  Nothing is said to them, they are allowed to do that.  

 

But there is something inside the kids that seems to self-rectify.  Ultimately, they get tired of themselves and sort of fall into the program.  They self-improve if nobody is riding herd on them.  This is my theory with my friend.  And I have seen a lot of changes in this fellow.  I do speak my peace when needed, but it's not in anger.  It's more of a matter-of-fact peace, a spoken peace that requires a modicum of maturity.

 

Kindness certainly must mean something different to everybody.

[manitou]

11 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

 

Because of the shallowness of non-dual realisation. 

 

 

Why knock it if you haven't tried it??

[Bindi]

3 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

Why knock it if you haven't tried it??

Do I have to practice Islam to know I don’t like it? I read the Koran, that was enough. Do I have to get sucked in to conspiracy theory, or get involved in a suicidal cult to know that they’re not for me? I think not. In the same way nor do I have to try the nondual view. 

[Mark Foote]

The quote from Wikipedia about mahamudra in my last post used "non-dual" as an adjective, to describe the nature of mind:
 

"... the unique features of mahamudra such as... the non-dual nature of mind...."

 

I suppose we could debate whether the mind has a non-dual nature.  That's different from debating the differences between a dual and a non-dual perspective.

Another of "the unique features of mahamudra" was "the importance of Pointing-out instruction by a guru".  That says to me that the non-dual nature of the mind is not discovered through thought (and I'm sure everybody here agrees with that), but I think it can be uncovered in the act of falling asleep, even without a guru.



 

 

[C T]

Non duality is not a practice. 

Saying "I adopt & practice/ascribe to the philosophy/concept/view of non duality" is rather lacking in light of the fact that, with the right sort of investigative insight, that which eventually clarifies is that the fundamental nature and the very essence of reality is empty of subject/object separability. Just like wetness cannot be separated from water, but this inseparable aspect of water is seldom given attention due to various reasons, chiefly habitual overlays. The tendency to gravitate towards a particular concept in favour of another is also due to habitual roots. When non duality is understood and then realised for what it is (the nature of mind and therefore the nature of reality), these habitual roots will instantly be severed, regardless of how ingrained they've become. The masters say its like bringing a candle into a darkened space - the length of time this space has remained in darkness does not affect the cause of this space lighting up.  

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by C T

[Bindi]

I recall I was once aware of two levels of mind, two spinning discs one on top of the other, both contained in a thick flat bottomed metal bowl. The top one was the everyday voice in my head and the bottom one was half that speed and thinking with this one was calm and clear. This bottom disc is a good candidate for me for ‘nondual perspective’, the subtle body form of the mind, valid within itself, but at the end of the day just one more level of mind. 

[C T]

54 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I recall I was once aware of two levels of mind, two spinning discs one on top of the other, both contained in a thick flat bottomed metal bowl. The top one was the everyday voice in my head and the bottom one was half that speed and thinking with this one was calm and clear. This bottom disc is a good candidate for me for ‘nondual perspective’, the subtle body form of the mind, valid within itself, but at the end of the day just one more level of mind. 

 

Levels of mind or mental states is similar to different manifestations of water, but the real end of the day is that all these manifestations have but one nature, which is wetness. If there is no wetness, water cannot be. Therefore, water and wetness is non-distinct - conjoined, inseparable, and therefore non dual. It is real, not a mere perspective. No matter how polluted a body of water is, once the pollution is removed, the body of water remains as it is, in its true, pristine, original state. Similarly, with felt understanding, its possible to realize afflictive emotions, no matter how severely ingrained, do not sully the true nature of mind in the least. Even in the midst of grossly afflictive states, there is still an avenue to notice and access this luminous basis (of mind's non dual nature). 

[Bindi]

The mind has its own mind nature, but the emotions have their own nature as well, and qi has its own nature, and we’re a mixture of all of them, why prioritise mind above all other fundamental natures that exist within us? 

 

[C T]

5 minutes ago, Bindi said:

The mind has its own mind nature, but the emotions have their own nature as well, and qi has its own nature, and we’re a mixture of all of them, why prioritise mind above all other fundamental natures that exist within us? 

 

 

Simple answer.... the beyond vast, sky-like nature of mind is beginningless and therefore, endless. Capture that, and immortality beckons. In Mahayana, its said that Mind nature neither exists nor is non-existent, so its worth investigating if what you assume, that it exists within us, is true. Again, the water metaphor suggests it may be worth reflecting whether wetness exists within water, or that the nature of water is wetness? Likewise, the fundamental nature of mind, with potentiality as default, is a seamless fusion of emptiness and cognizance. Without these two qualities, there is no mind. Such cannot be said of emotions, Qi, etc. 

 

Its not necessary to prioritise any one thing over another - whats necessary is simply to maintain a curious disposition to investigate if mind is indeed what the Buddhist masters claim it to be. There shouldn't be any compulsion to accept any premise as true without personal experience, even if a buddha were to utter fantastical claims in the present. 

[old3bob]

 

"the non-dual nature of mind"  is not how Hindu teachings use the term mind,  so no matter how hard a correlation junkie may try to conflate such with teachings of the Upanishads such will never jive.  Granted mind can be calm and clear but it is still not and never will be Brahman which is beyond all categories that mind can be related with, including even the connection of pure light or prana which is Brahman's "first born" so to speak,  for mind is still a "thing" or a construct,  "the first and the last construct";   btw. I'd also say mind is not pointed to as "no-thing" in Taoism.       

[blue eyed snake]

 

6 hours ago, C T said:

with the right sort of investigative insight, that which eventually clarifies is that the fundamental nature and the very essence of reality is empty of subject/object separability.

 

remembering, I was standing and ironing a curtain, all of a sudden I was gone, meaning ' my mind' was not there, no idea were it was hidden. But there was awareness, the body went on with the task, the hands were busy, the awareness was aware of the hands and the feet, but it was just as aware of the iron as of the hands, just as aware of the curtain, of the other things in the room.

 

I never talked about it, but the way I thought about it ( later) was liking it to the electron, that can behave as a particle or as a wave.

 

that moment this little part of everything was working in wave modus, mostly I am back behaving like a particle, but there is an undercurrent of knowing this fact that has never left ( my awareness)

 

I would not call it mind, but awareness.

It's everywhere, it is in everything, we just forgot how to let it go through us while being aware of it. (or something.)

 

 

Thanks for your post, some ways of putting words together make it clearer for me.