Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[manitou]

3 hours ago, steve said:

I just read this morning a post about Garchen Rinpoche’s experience in a Chinese prison - torture, hard labor… His ability to take this as his path and not just survive but thrive is mind boggling.

 

 

There was a movie years ago where a man was in a hard labor camp, razor wire all around him - maybe in Siberia or somewhere.  I wish I could remember the name of the movie.  He was talking about the beauty of the sunset, as he momentarily stopped from his labors.  He was talking about loving the guards. I wish I could remember this movie, I'd love to watch it again.  But I've never forgotten that scene.  Maybe that's the point.  The words of truth sticks to our soul like lint sticks to a little black dress.  Everything else is forgotten, truth remains.

 

In the sense of oneness, it is fascinating to me that if I recognize something in someone else (think of the nastiest politician you can think of!) it's because I have that very same trait as a template within me.  Otherwise I wouldn't know what it is.  I guess this is why when someone makes a statement about the intentions or motivations of another, it is said that it tells you more about the speaker than the one spoken of.

 

I am Trump.  A hard one to swallow.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by manitou

[manitou]

20 hours ago, Bindi said:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

 

 

This is curious.  In the DDJ there is mention of taking the middle path, the broad path, and how people love to get distracted by the side paths.  Same principle, I guess - just from a reverse point of view.

[doc benway]

12 minutes ago, manitou said:

I am Trump.  A hard one to swallow.

I try but the hair keeps getting stuck in my throat!

🙀

[natural]

Puts me in mind of training of many years ago... Without  clear and seperate deliniation of resposibilities two life guards or two flight instructers are more than twice as dangerous as one.

 

But one loose canon can make a pretty big mess!

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

I am Trump.  A hard one to swallo

 

[natural]

And to think manitou, I held you in such high esteem lol

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

There was a movie years ago where a man was in a hard labor camp, razor wire all around him - maybe in Siberia or somewhere.  I wish I could remember the name of the movie.  He was talking about the beauty of the sunset, as he momentarily stopped from his labors.  He was talking about loving the guards. I wish I could remember this movie, I'd love to watch it again.  But I've never forgotten that scene.  Maybe that's the point.  The words of truth sticks to our soul like lint sticks to a little black dress.  Everything else is forgotten, truth remains.

 

In the sense of oneness, it is fascinating to me that if I recognize something in someone else (think of the nastiest politician you can think of!) it's because I have that very same trait as a template within me.  Otherwise I wouldn't know what it is.  I guess this is why when someone makes a statement about the intentions or motivations of another, it is said that it tells you more about the speaker than the one spoken of.

 

I am Trump.  A hard one to swallow.

 

 

on some levels that may apply but it does not apply to those that have recognized and overcome their own (potential or actual) evil, so we have another "New Age" like saying of generalization and  misunderstanding imo. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by old3bob

[natural]

My instructor at the time was also a designated Pilot examiner, a women only to say at that time the early mid 70 's that was ab\n exceptional accomplishment for a civilian and even more so for a women.

 

I still recall doing a very tricky takeoff exhibiting my fledgling short soft field take off off a grass runway.

Any how I taxied back as far as possible and while standing on the brakes applied full powe,r pleased with the response I released the brakes and hauled back on the yoke.

 

Around 30 knots indicated we achieved lift off with the stall warning screaming something l like Danger Will ??Rogers Danger!

I maintained forward flight as we slowly increased speed until we reached  vx or best angle of takeoff. The stall horn continued to sqauck as I pulled the nose for all intents and puoposes to the sky. Ms. Anna belle ????F  asked me where in the hell did you learn to do that? And for Gods sake lower the nose we cleared the mystical 50 foot trees a bit back!

 

I lowered my nose only to see a state police helicopter on an intercept course if I would have maintained that attitude it would not have ended well. Alot learned in a very short time!

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

".... It is safe to say that Hinduism in general, while being panentheistic as is clear from above, has a pantheistic overlapping between the world and some part of the divine."

 

 

I always like to know the source of a quotation--how about it, old3bob?

[natural]

25 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I always like to know the source of a quotation--how about it, old3bob?

 

I am not old3bob, but want to make it very clear I only quote myself or on the rare occasion other fictional characters I encounter!

[manitou]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

on some levels that may apply but it does not apply to those that have recognized and overcome their own (potential or actual) evil, so we have another "New Age" like saying of generalization and  misunderstanding imo. 

 

 

old3bob - I'm getting the impression that you don't think real highly of "new age".  I'm not even sure what you mean by that!  Is it some hocus pocus thing you're afraid of?    I'm wondering that if anyone strays off a delineated path, you call them New Age.  Is that the case?  If so, you're in for a bit of a surprise....

[Nungali]

On 17/06/2022 at 3:07 PM, Bindi said:

Wasn’t kundalini the in thing a few years ago, everyone had to be kundalini awakened and those that weren’t were the spiritual neophytes, the simpletons and the lesser ones who just didn’t get it. No one seems to be talking about kundalini anymore. Do certain awakenings just go out of fashion? 

 

Being at the forefront of fashion , I regret to inform you that I am currently suffering  ' non-duality sickness' . 

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I always like to know the source of a quotation--how about it, old3bob?

 

sure:  https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Panentheism

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

old3bob - I'm getting the impression that you don't think real highly of "new age".  I'm not even sure what you mean by that!  Is it some hocus pocus thing you're afraid of?    I'm wondering that if anyone strays off a delineated path, you call them New Age.  Is that the case?  If so, you're in for a bit of a surprise....

 

For instance: American and Hindu Indians do not appreciate  'New Ager's" co-opting or claiming this or that about their ways or trying to teach their ways without them being qualified to do so, thus using parts of same as if they are also authorities on such, or conflating parts of their teachings into a big warm, half-baked fuzzy ball .  Another example is (unqualified)  Kundalini yoga masters in every other street corner yoga studio in the U.S. charging $50 and up per lesson. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

12 hours ago, C T said:

 

In the same way one could say the ego festers in duality. It does not even bother to be subtle. 
 

 

Agreed, ego rules in duality, likely the prime motivator often enough. 

 

Quote

 

Which explains why the general consensus among those who find affinity with spiritual matters will notice that the majority of folks, wandering in the illusion of duality, have very gross egos. In some ways, this is actually a good thing. Understanding their ways and interactions are less convoluted. It is where mountains are mountains. Where it gets slippery is the phase where mountains are no longer seen as mountains. This is where a lot of potential conflicts within spiritual circles catch fire, making interactions difficult. Because people have begun to see more, and each individual mountain, previously relatable with everyone else's, have begun to take on different hues, dimensions and possibilities. The catch being that such discoveries are very personal, individualistic, and often subjective. This is the phase where the polishing of the view (or diamond) is the most frantic, and therefore, prone to more frequent debates and misunderstandings. 

 

If ego is the fundamental problem, it needs to be defined. This is one definition of ego: 

 

The ego is the identification of your awareness-consciousness with your physical body, emotions and thoughts. In order to express itself in the outside world, your awareness-consciousness needs the physical body, the emotions and the thoughts, and identifies itself with them. This creates the ego…

 

…there are also shared, bigger egos – group egos, with which people identify. These are also called aggregate egos. Most people tend to join and be a part of a larger ego. They might do so consciously and intentionally, or it can be part of their upbringing and education. This larger ego could be their family, religion, workplace, neighborhood, political party, city, country, and even their football or basketball team…

 

…the same life force pass[es] through all egos, activating them and giving them life. Identifying with the ego, makes you see the differences, but identifying with the life force, lets you see through the ego, and perceive reality as it is – one and undivided…

 

…How can you rise above the ego? Through inner work, getting out of your comfort zone, becoming tolerant and considerate, learning emotional detachment, and through some other means, such as concentration and meditation.

https://www.successconsciousness.com/blog/spirituality/what-is-the-ego/

 

This definition is workable for me, really my problem starts with the methods used to remove ‘ego identification’. I don’t fully agree with any of the above methods, and I feel nonduality is often, though not always, a current aggregate ego that produces the right phrases but has not actually dismantled ego identification. 
 

I also question the idea that ‘nothing needs to be done’, the subtle energy body does require certain subtle pathways to be enabled, not from an ego standpoint but from a ‘spirit’ or soul or insert whatever word you like standpoint. I believe Nonduality curtails this work by short circuiting the need for it within its philosophy. 

 

Quote

 

Peaceful, transcendent coexistence and mutual understanding returns when mountains are once again seen as mountains. However, the noticeable difference here, compared to phase one, is unmistakeable authenticity of interactions, and how silence is no longer awkward. 

 

 

 

[manitou]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

For instance: American and Hindu Indians do not appreciate  'New Ager's" co-opting or claiming this or that about their ways or trying to teach their ways without them being qualified to do so, thus using parts of same as if they are also authorities on such, or conflating parts of their teachings into a big warm, half-baked fuzzy ball .  Another example is (unqualified)  Kundalini yoga masters in every other street corner yoga studio in the U.S. charging $50 and up per lesson. 

 

 

 

So many paths, so little time.  We'll all meet in the same cosmic blender.  Even the American and Hindu Indians, regardless of who appreciates it or not.

 

 

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Being at the forefront of fashion , I regret to inform you that I am currently suffering  ' non-duality sickness' . 

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

old3bob - I'm getting the impression that you don't think real highly of "new age".  I'm not even sure what you mean by that!  Is it some hocus pocus thing you're afraid of?    ...

 

 

 

[Mark Foote]

22 hours ago, dwai said:

 

He’s referring to the subject-object duality that gets reinforced with focus on an “object” as I understand it. The reflected consciousness (the mind) includes the ego which applies labels and identities. So the seer who experiences, the doer who does, applies the separation of “subject and object”, “doer and doing”,  and so on. This is what is being referred to here. 

 

 

What's the cure, per Patanjali or Swami Krishnananda?

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

 

 

So many paths, so little time.  We'll all meet in the same cosmic blender.  Even the American and Hindu Indians, regardless of who appreciates it or not.

 

 

Co-opting aka stealing is not ok by me is it for you ?  

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

For instance: American and Hindu Indians do not appreciate  'New Ager's" co-opting or claiming this or that about their ways or trying to teach their ways without them being qualified to do so, thus using parts of same as if they are also authorities on such, or conflating parts of their teachings into a big warm, half-baked fuzzy ball .  Another example is (unqualified)  Kundalini yoga masters in every other street corner yoga studio in the U.S. charging $50 and up per lesson. 

From ‘New Age’ in Wikipedia:

 

Non-Western and indigenous criticism

New Age often adopts spiritual ideas and practices from other, particularly non-Western cultures. These may include "Hawaiian Kahuna magic, Australian Aboriginal dream-working, South American Amerindian ayahuasca and San Pedro ceremony, Hindu Ayurveda and yoga, Chinese Feng Shui, Qi Gong, and Tai Chi"^[391]

The New Age has been accused of cultural imperialism, misappropriating the sacred ceremonies, and exploitation of the intellectual and cultural property of indigenous peoples.^{[392][393][294][394]} Indigenous American spiritual leaders, such as Elders councils of the Lakota, Cheyenne, Navajo, Creek, Hopi, Chippewa, and Haudenosaunee have denounced New Age misappropriation of their sacred ceremonies^[395] and other intellectual property,^[396] stating that "[t]he value of these instructions and ceremonies [when led by unauthorized people] are questionable, maybe meaningless, and hurtful to the individual carrying false messages".^[395] Traditional leaders of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota peoples have reached consensus^[392][397] to reject "the expropriation of [their] ceremonial ways by non-Indians". They see the New Age movement as either not fully understanding, deliberately trivializing, or distorting their way of life,^[398] and have declared war on all such "plastic medicine people" who are appropriating their spiritual ways.^[392][397]

Indigenous leaders have spoken out against individuals from within their own communities who may go out into the world to become a "white man's shaman," and any "who are prostituting our spiritual ways for their own selfish gain, with no regard for the spiritual well-being of the people as a whole".^[398] The term "plastic shaman" or "plastic medicine people" has been applied to outsiders who identify themselves as shamans, holy people, or other traditional spiritual leaders, but who have no genuine connection to the traditions or cultures they claim to represent.

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

I also question the idea that ‘nothing needs to be done’, the subtle energy body does require certain subtle pathways to be enabled, not from an ego standpoint but from a ‘spirit’ or soul or insert whatever word you like standpoint. I believe Nonduality curtails this work by short circuiting the need for it within its philosophy. 

 

 

 

That is the paradox of the spiritual undertaking, I think--the difficulty of reconciling a fundamental spiritual perfection with a seemingly imperfect existence.  Because there is a fundamental spiritual perfection, many say that nothing needs to be done except to realize it.  And yet...

 

I think Gautama was right to take the tack of approaching the undertaking from the standpoint of making an end of suffering, rather than realizing that fundamental perfection.  Gautama's effort to sit down and induce concentrations that culminated in a cessation of volitive activity indicates to me that he believed there was a fundamental well-being of body and mind, apart from any exercise of will.  Moreover, his experience of such states was an affirmation that action of the body and mind necessary to well-being can take place even in the absence of the exercise of will.

Not that "nothing needs to be done", but that there doesn't need to be a "doer" in order for what needs to be done to take place.

"You must do that which it is now time for you to do"--something Gautama says in parting with individuals (under certain circumstances), in the sermons.

[Bindi]

35 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

That is the paradox of the spiritual undertaking, I think--the difficulty of reconciling a fundamental spiritual perfection with a seemingly imperfect existence. 
 

 

If we knew the perfect spiritual blueprint and how to reconcile it with imperfect existence we would know what is ultimately most important to know IMO. 

 

35 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Because there is a fundamental spiritual perfection, many say that nothing needs to be done except to realize it.  And yet...

 

I think Gautama was right to take the tack of approaching the undertaking from the standpoint of making an end of suffering, rather than realizing that fundamental perfection.  Gautama's effort to sit down and induce concentrations that culminated in a cessation of volitive activity indicates to me that he believed there was a fundamental well-being of body and mind, apart from any exercise of will.  Moreover, his experience of such states was an affirmation that action of the body and mind necessary to well-being can take place even in the absence of the exercise of will.

Not that "nothing needs to be done", but that there doesn't need to be a "doer" in order for what needs to be done to take place.

 

 

This is similar if not the same as wuwei, “an ancient Chinese concept literally meaning "inexertion", "inaction", or "effortless action". I completely agree, I need to be disidentified from the “doer”, though there is still a doer and a part that directs the doer, but they get on without me, I am neither the director nor the doer. Perhaps contrary to most though, I don’t think wuwei is the path, more the result of very specific effort. Once wuwei is reached, the next thing unfolds without effort. 

 

Quote

"You must do that which it is now time for you to do"--something Gautama says in parting with individuals (under certain circumstances), in the sermons.

 

[old3bob]

"Because there is a fundamental spiritual perfection, many say that nothing needs to be done except to realize it.  And yet..."

 

I'd say that our human mind can not realize that which is beyond its ability but it can be still and clear, so the way I'd put it is that Spirit realizes Spirit (which had been veiled yet always present)   which is very different from an idea of the mind getting it, for if mind could get it then it could also lose it.

Edited June 19, 2022 by old3bob

[C T]

 

"There is no such thing in reality as an ego; it is merely illusory. It is made up of a compilation of arbitrary points of view supplied by mental processing and powered by feelings and emotions. These desires represent the attachments that the Buddha spoke of as the bondage of suffering. With absolute humility, the ego dissolves. The ego is a collection of arbitrary mental processes that gain force only because of vanity and habit. If one lets go of the vanity of thought, it dissolves. All thought is vanity. All opinions are vanities. The pleasure of vanity is therefore the basis of the ego -- unplug it, and it collapses." 

 

"It is well to keep in mind at all times that the ego/mind does not experience the world, but only its own perception of it." 

 

~ David Hawkins 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

"There is no such thing in reality as an ego; it is merely illusory. It is made up of a compilation of arbitrary points of view supplied by mental processing and powered by feelings and emotions. These desires represent the attachments that the Buddha spoke of as the bondage of suffering. With absolute humility, the ego dissolves. The ego is a collection of arbitrary mental processes that gain force only because of vanity and habit. If one lets go of the vanity of thought, it dissolves. All thought is vanity. All opinions are vanities. The pleasure of vanity is therefore the basis of the ego -- unplug it, and it collapses." 

 

"It is well to keep in mind at all times that the ego/mind does not experience the world, but only its own perception of it." 

 

~ David Hawkins 

 

 

 

Ego is a very persistent illusion though, and it is taking me some time to dismantle it. I’m working directly with resolving the emotions and the thoughts that are present, instead of just letting go of thought per se.