Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[Apech]

10 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Agreed, ego rules in duality, likely the prime motivator often enough. 

 

 

If ego is the fundamental problem, it needs to be defined. This is one definition of ego: 

 

The ego is the identification of your awareness-consciousness with your physical body, emotions and thoughts. In order to express itself in the outside world, your awareness-consciousness needs the physical body, the emotions and the thoughts, and identifies itself with them. This creates the ego…

 

…there are also shared, bigger egos – group egos, with which people identify. These are also called aggregate egos. Most people tend to join and be a part of a larger ego. They might do so consciously and intentionally, or it can be part of their upbringing and education. This larger ego could be their family, religion, workplace, neighborhood, political party, city, country, and even their football or basketball team…

 

…the same life force pass[es] through all egos, activating them and giving them life. Identifying with the ego, makes you see the differences, but identifying with the life force, lets you see through the ego, and perceive reality as it is – one and undivided…

 

…How can you rise above the ego? Through inner work, getting out of your comfort zone, becoming tolerant and considerate, learning emotional detachment, and through some other means, such as concentration and meditation.

https://www.successconsciousness.com/blog/spirituality/what-is-the-ego/

 

This definition is workable for me, really my problem starts with the methods used to remove ‘ego identification’. I don’t fully agree with any of the above methods, and I feel nonduality is often, though not always, a current aggregate ego that produces the right phrases but has not actually dismantled ego identification. 
 

I also question the idea that ‘nothing needs to be done’, the subtle energy body does require certain subtle pathways to be enabled, not from an ego standpoint but from a ‘spirit’ or soul or insert whatever word you like standpoint. I believe Nonduality curtails this work by short circuiting the need for it within its philosophy. 

 

 

 

I always find 'ego' discussions to be a little confused.  Most (and probably all) spiritual systems will tell you to clean your act up before you start - deal with your self and relationships - and most of the cleaning up is about reducing self-clinging.  Essentially - be a better person by being kinder, nicer, less attached to your own needs and wants.  But being 'sorted' in this way doesn't mean you are less of an ego - actually you might be stronger egoically in some senses.  I've noticed for instance a huge difference between westerners who take up Buddhism and Tibetans.  Tibetans get stronger, more open, happier and full of personality.  While westerners seem to try to diminish, become pale and apologetic.  Neither in my view has removed ego but rather have either used it for themselves or against themselves.  I think this essentially resolves down to a conceptual problem.

 

The other layer to this is the non-dual subject/object distinction which is you could say another story.

 

We could say that our nature in terms of the dualistic world is double.  That we have a manifest being, a body and mind, which is specific and 'physical' - and we also have a pure self, a soul if you like which is intangible (ordinarily).  The problem lies in that contained between these two is a host of energetic entanglements, emotional baggage, cloudy obstructions and the like - even what one might call parasitic entities which exhibit in things like addictive thoughts and activity.  It is very hard to see clearly through this, we might say we have spiritual cataracts which make it hard to see what is what.  

 

What we do about this, how we approach it, is the issue.  Do we just say that all this material is illusory and to let it go?  Or do we deal with it in some way by looking at it's nature, seeing what it is, transforming it or clearing it out?  Even if we answer this question in the positive it is still not particularly easy to see what to do.  For instance sometimes struggling with a problem, like a fish caught in a net, makes it worse.  Sometimes leaving a problem be just lets it fester and grow.  The implication then, is that we have to grow all our talents, vary our approach as each obstacle arises and learn how to negotiate different situations in different ways.

 

 

[C T]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Ego is a very persistent illusion though, and it is taking me some time to dismantle it. I’m working directly with resolving the emotions and the thoughts that are present, instead of just letting go of thought per se. 

 

If its any consolation, its equally persistent for more than almost all of us, even those deemed to be grouped under 'non dualists and their do-nothing philosophy'. I don't know if its necessary/helpful to form such a view because this association is not based on any concrete statistic. Likely there will be some who will assert their belonging to a non-dualist clique, and among these, a percentage may indeed ascribe to certain concepts that may appear to suggest they have a penchant for non-action, and further to this, among those with such a bent, again each will tend to have their own take on what non-action means. Because most people fall into the 'Mountains are not mountains' category.

 

Generalizations seldom do any justice, so my own stance is usually to maintain an open mind, mostly preferring observation and reflection above other viable responses. I don't buy into the notion that there are 2 camps - the dualists and the nons. For me, existence, though multi-faceted and full of variety, only appears fragmented-like (dualistic). This appearance feeds the majority of folks. Most wallow in it out of ignorance. Its essence, however (call it buddha nature, or whichsoever label one prefers), is primordially pure, and its nature has always been in perfect union. For those whose chaos has brought them to a crossroad of sorts, there are 2 options - work from the view that they need to sieve thru all the fragments in attempts to piece their lives back whole, or choose the latter path, ie to work from a place where essence and nature is revealed unmistakably to the initiate by way of abhisheka (empowerments) or pointing out instructions by a master. This is basically what Vajrayana practitioners get to work with. This approach offers the kind of assurance that helps to sidestep potentially massive amounts of doubt and insecurities. 

[C T]

1 hour ago, C T said:

Gremlin double post

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by C T

[manitou]

13 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Co-opting aka stealing is not ok by me is it for you ?  

 

 

It's stealing, I guess, if someone lays claim to it, as an author.  It's stealing if one holds that idea up as their own creation, and has their ego entrenched in it.  To that person, it would be stealing.  I agree with you there.  To that person, the one whose ego rides on identification with that concept, it would feel like something was being stolen from them.

 

But to those who have traveled beyond identification with any particular method, this stealing appears as immature.  The more mature outlook is to realize that there is only one absolute reality, and that all named paths, all methodologies, are nothing more than conveyances.  I return to the point where, regardless of where in the world we're born, there is a propelling impetus within our hearts to understand 'something'.  It drives us to question, it drives us upward.  It doesn't matter whether we're born into a Buddhist country or a Christian nation, or of atheistic parents.  Even atheists are called to ponder the question in their hearts, and have chosen to believe that there is nothing "out there".  IMO, they are closer to the truth than many others.

 

Who is more correct?  The one who spends much of his life worshipping the inside of the car he's been riding in all his life, or the one that realizes that the destination is more important than what kind of car he took to get there?  Sure, somebody can steal someone else's car, but the person who arrived at the destination doesn't need the car any more, and could just as easily give it away, as he's finally found the place he's been looking for.

 

I hate to use the word "God", because that is such a remnant of my youth.  But I'll use it here for simplicity's sake.  God is either everything or he is nothing.  The Dao is everything or it is nothing.  If indeed it is everything, then one car is just as good as the other car, and to borrow and utilize aspects of all world religions, all paths, is a very intelligent thing to do.  I think the very best understanding of the DDJ is not in the reading of one translation, but in the triangulation of many different translator's 'truths'.

 

It is in this triangulation, this mental comparing and seeing the commonality of all paths, that some use to find the absolute reality that all who have transcended their individual paths to find the commonality within all paths have found.  Nobody ever reverts from non-dualism back to dualism, once it is Realized.  I capitalize this for a reason.  It is Self Realization that is the goal.  What does that actually mean?  I can't tell you, you have to realize it for yourself.

 

This is the distance, this self realization, between the master's fingertip and the moon.  In one sense, the yogis will tell you to kill your thoughts.  In one aspect, this is true.  The monkey mind must be tamed to get there.  But on the other hand, there are thoughts of a different nature that are undeniable and necessary.  The thought process of discarding the words of another - the quotes, even the masters - and forming new words of understanding in your own mind.  We were issued brains for a reason.  Personally, I think this is the very reason that we were issued brains.  To figure this out.  I truly believe it when Yutang's DDJ says 'the action of the Dao is reversion'.  It is reverting back to itself, the one, before the 10,000 things manifested.  The stream of consciousness, whatever is most appropriate for understanding by the experience of your particular background.  The day that the need for approval, for utilizing the helpful words of another, for instruction by a master - this is the day we come into our own, the answer is experienced.  It is no longer a concept out in the distance with all the bells and whistles.  Some alchemical thing happens to the individual, and they become something different.  Joseph has finally put on his coat of many colors.  There is no longer right and wrong.  Morality ceases to be a consideration, because the highest action will flow out of you of its own accord.

 

Other than taming the monkey mind, the only other requisite is ego diminishment.  If one continually bangs the drum (or honks the horn of one's car of preference) of any given path, this is ego reinforcing.  The humility that is required for the camel to get through the eye of the needle will never be found.  To realize that no one is higher than another, no one is better than another, and that, indeed, we are all merely temporarily in the shape of a wave in the same ocean - this is the humility required to get through the eye of the needle.  How many can achieve this?  Not many.  But it is the mansion we seek.  And in that mansion are many rooms, one room labeled Buddhism, another labeled Hindi, and so on.  But they all dwell in the same mansion.  All we need to do is realize that we're already living in the mansion.  We just don't know it.

 

 

[old3bob]

"It's stealing, I guess, if someone lays claim to it, as an author.  It's stealing if one holds that idea up as their own creation, and has their ego entrenched in it.  To that person, it would be stealing.  I agree with you there...." By Manitou

 

Umm, this was enough.    A manifesto is not needed to shuttle away from this context, imo.

Edited June 19, 2022 by old3bob

[old3bob]

 

so again we have that 4 letter word of "illusion" pop up,  btw where is real illusion?

[Mark Foote]

I like a nice manifesto before breakfast.  Pass the salt, pass the butter--more syrup, anyone?  Coffee!

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I love the traditionalists and the innovators, the die-hards and the dabblers.  How wonderful that there are Mexican people making mole just like their grandmother's taught them, and Finnish people experimenting with Japanese-Mexican fusion.  Well I can't be sure about that last claim, but if there is such a Finnish person I definitely want to eat at her restaurant.  In my own spiritual practice, I've tended towards something more akin to Japanese-Mexican fusion.  Don't judge.  We all find our way, eventually.

Edited June 19, 2022 by liminal_luke

[liminal_luke]

8 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I like a nice manifesto before breakfast.  Pass the salt, pass the butter--more syrup, anyone?  Coffee!

 

 

Manitou writes the best manifestos -- even if she is Trump.  

[old3bob]

35 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

I like a nice manifesto before breakfast.  Pass the salt, pass the butter--more syrup, anyone?  Coffee!

 

 

 

That looks real enough and supplies proteins, fats and carbs even if it is an "illusion".

Edited June 19, 2022 by old3bob

[manitou]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

Umm, this was enough.    A manifesto is not needed to shuttle away from this context, imo.

 

Sorry for the manifesto, friend.  I'll try to be more direct in the future.

 

[old3bob]

so Mark are you going to cook the rest of us a virtual breakfast, from the picture it looks like you are qualified to do so?     (and how about some blueberry scones to go with?)

[C T]

23 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

Sorry for the manifesto, friend.  I'll try to be more direct in the future.

 

 

Is there any particular part of your post that you feel necessitated an apology? 

Certainly you're not apologising for being expressive? Sure hope not. 

 

[dwai]

16 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

What's the cure, per Patanjali or Swami Krishnananda?

Patanjali’s way is the 8-fold one. Yama, Niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara, dharana, dhyana culminating into samadhi.

 

Swami Krishnananda’s way is Advaita Vedanta primarily, so for that there is the path of Jnana yoga - learn the correct view, contemplate on the view and assimilate it so that it becomes a lived reality. 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, C T said:

 

Is there any particular part of your post that you feel necessitated an apology? 

Certainly you're not apologising for being expressive? Sure hope not. 

 

 

 CT, Is there any particular part of your nose that you feel compelled to insert here for someone else? 

I'd say the Lady can very easily speak for herself.

Edited June 19, 2022 by old3bob

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

so Mark are you going to cook the rest of us a virtual breakfast, from the picture it looks like you are qualified to do so?     (and how about some blueberry scones to go with?)

 

well dude its going on lunch time now and some of us are getting hungry while waiting...if money is a problem we will all chip in some virtual bucks, or how about some crypto coins before they go to zero?

[C T]

4 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

 CT, Is there any particular part of your nose that you feel compelled to insert here for someone else? 

I'd say the Lady can very easily speak for herself.

 

Precisely what I've been waiting for... Manitou's reply. And what compelled you to be rude when the question is of no concern of yours?

[old3bob]

its sad Natural for those that bought bitcoin for 50k and now its down to 19k and probably dropping further...

[old3bob]

1 minute ago, C T said:

 

Precisely what I've been waiting for... Manitou's reply. And what compelled you to be rude when the question is of no concern of yours?

 

and you have sounded so wise lately...

[C T]

6 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

and you have sounded so wise lately...

 

Not sure where the relevance is. It was a fair question to Manitou, one which really does not concern you so please desist from further interruptions. Thank you 

[natural]

45 minutes ago, old3bob said:

its sad Natural for those that bought bitcoin for 50k and now its down to 19k and probably dropping further...

 

Not so sad for those who didn't have funds to invest yet see their meager savings continue to shrink and struggle to make ends meet each week (or day)

[old3bob]

21 minutes ago, natural said:

 

Not so sad for those who didn't have funds to invest yet see their meager savings continue to shrink and struggle to make ends meet each week (or day)

 

sounds sad on both counts thanks to the powers of greed that be...

[old3bob]

59 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Not sure where the relevance is. It was a fair question to Manitou, one which really does not concern you so please desist from further interruptions. Thank you 

 

hey guy, fyi it was you who started with the interjection so don't lecture at me for doing so.

[natural]

Just now, old3bob said:

 

sounds sad on both counts thanks to the powers of greed that be...

 

It is all relative is it not?

Some live high on the hog, others not.

Something about damned by faint praise seems applicable?

[old3bob]

"Something about damned by faint praise seems applicable"....I'm not familiar with that one?