Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, natural said:

On a basic level pain is a warning alert, suffering usually occurs, but not always when we ignore the pain and carry on, so not all pain is suffering.

In my experience, suffering is a chronic resistance to what is. Usually accompanied with thoughts such as -

 

"Why is this happening to ME?" "What did I do to deserve this?" "Why is it not happening to x, y or z who is so much worse than I am?" "I don't want this thing/circumstance/feeling" and so on...

 

or

 

"Why can't I have this thing/this person forever?" "Why can't this feeling last forever?" "I want more of that" and so on... 

 

6 minutes ago, natural said:

Ignoring pain almost always results in suffering in my experience. Put your hand in a flame, ignore the pain from the heat and remain there is a surefire way to suffer. Pun intended!

Yup - quite apropos, because by ignoring pain one is resisting what is. 

[C T]

@natural

 

I too have a friend who experienced overwhelming physical and mental trauma as a result of being robbed, beaten up, and raped in her own home. She told me that the trauma in the aftermath of the horrific event was many times worse than the incident itself. Even therapy did little to alleviate the force of her aversion to what happened. She knew that she could not function if she continued to remain in that dark tunnel, so she consciously chose to do volunteer work at a rape crisis centre. This decision to be proactive, she said, was the best decision she ever made. It widened her perspective to such an extent that within a few months, she was able to find purpose and meaning to life again. We were all amazed by the transformation. So yes, to some extent, verifiably, suffering is a crisis of perception. 

[natural]

1 minute ago, C T said:

@natural

 

I too have a friend who experienced overwhelming physical and mental trauma as a result of being robbed, beaten up, and raped in her own home. She told me that the trauma in the aftermath of the horrific event was many times worse than the incident itself. Even therapy did little to alleviate the force of her aversion to what happened. She knew that she could not function if she continued to remain in that dark tunnel, so she consciously chose to do volunteer work at a rape crisis centre. This decision to be proactive, she said, was the best decision she ever made. It widened her perspective to such an extent that within a few months, she was able to find purpose and meaning to life again. We were all amazed by the transformation. So yes, to some extent, verifiably, suffering is a crisis of perception. 

 

As you can imagine volunteering in a super sterile environment the burn unit is not a realistic option.

However, I truly appreciate and commend your friends efforts.

Truly we each have unique paths to wholeness.

[silent thunder]

@natural

Pain does not equal Suffering. 

This is my experiential awareness.

 

i understand if you won't, don't or can't differentiate... this is why I ended my post with (in my experience).

I'm not selling this as your truth; i am sharing my own realization.

[dwai]

A very modern perspective, very insightful --

 

Spoiler

When pain intensifies and generalizes over time, it becomes suffering. Suffering is repeated failure to act successfully on the natural motivation of pain to do something that will heal, repair, or improve.

Like its physical counterpart, normal psychological pain (that which is not due to brain disease or severe emotional disorder) is localized in the beginning, usually in the form of guilt, shame, or anxiety about something specific. But when it comes to emotional pain, the behavior choices that will heal, repair, or improve are more ambiguous. Psychological pain is, therefore, more conducive to suffering.

When psychological pain generalizes, it seems to be about the self - a kind of self-ache, if you will. As the alarm of pain intensifies, fixing our focus on distress, we become self-obsessed. Eventually we identify with the pain, in a subtle or overt victim-identity. At that point, we can scarcely perceive the pain of other people, which robs us of the unique power of social healing. Self-obsession makes the alarm of pain louder and more general (mental focus amplifies and magnifies) and isolates us from humane connections that heal.

Anything that numbs or avoids pain undermines its ability to motivate corrective behavior and thereby causes suffering. The most common causes are blame, resentment (expecting someone else to relieve the pain), anger, addictions, and compulsive behavior. All render us powerless to heal, improve, or repair. All cause suffering.

To prevent suffering, we must follow the motivation of pain.

If it's that simple, why is it so hard? In a word, habit.

Those who suffer have gotten into the habit of numbing or avoiding (through blame, resentment, anger, addictions, or compulsions), the pain-signals that would otherwise motivate healing, repairing, or improving.

It takes mindfulness and emotional reconditioning to break habits.

The first crucial step is to take responsibility for your emotions and pain, so they can work for you instead of against you.

Guilt is about violating your values; the motivation of guilt is to act according to your values, and that is the only thing that will relieve it. Shame is about failure and inadequacy; the motivation is to revaluate, re-conceptualize, and redouble effort to achieve success. Anxiety is a dread of something bad occurring that will exceed or deplete coping skills; the motivation is to learn more about what might happen and develop plans to cope with it.

Painful emotions have a self-healing and self-correcting component. When we take advantage of it, we flourish. When we don't, we suffer.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/anger-in-the-age-entitlement/201104/pain-and-suffering

[natural]

Just now, silent thunder said:

@natural

Pain does not equal Suffering. 

This is my experiential awareness.

 

i understand if you won't, don't or can't differentiate... this is why I ended my post with (in my experience).

I'm not selling this as your truth; i am sharing my own realization.

Oh my friend , I have recognized, undergone and have experience in discerning the difference between pain self-inflicted or external in origin. 

As I stated earlier pain ignored almost always results in suffering, be it  immediate or delayed.

[C T]

4 minutes ago, natural said:

 

As you can imagine volunteering in a super sterile environment the burn unit is not a realistic option.

However, I truly appreciate and commend your friends efforts.

Truly we each have unique paths to wholeness.

 

Thank you. Appreciation is mutual. 

[silent thunder]

20 minutes ago, natural said:

Oh my friend , I have recognized, undergone and have experience in discerning the difference between pain self-inflicted or external in origin. 

As I stated earlier pain ignored almost always results in suffering, be it  immediate or delayed.

ok, this is your experience. 

thank you for sharing.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, silent thunder said:

@natural

Pain does not equal Suffering. 

This is my experiential awareness.

 

i understand if you won't, don't or can't differentiate... this is why I ended my post with (in my experience).

I'm not selling this as your truth; i am sharing my own realization.

 

I  have that 'awareness' and experience .  Now, and for some time , I have pain everyday, for most of the day , but I certainly dont feel like I am suffering  because of it .

 

Yesterday, this woman visited me , she went on and on and on  Even when I tried to talk, she would  pick a subject, phrase or even  word  from my conversation, and use that to branch off into , yet another  gossipy monologue   

 

Now that was suffering !

[Bindi]

The mother who loses her child in a drive by shooting and remains serene is so weird I would wonder what’s wrong with her. What about accepting the feelings of massive grief, daily, for weeks, and somewhat reducing the long term impact of the loss at best. 

[natural]

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I agree that it's the unusual mother who would find the "suffering is optional" phrase a healing balm, especially at the beginning of her journey through grief.  But consider the alternative statement: suffering is compulsory.  To my ear this sounds even more cruel.  At some point we all have the right to put down our burdens.

 

I am more than ready Luke to put down my burdens can we find a place of peace, without judgement where I may do so?

I would be so glad to meet you there!

[doc benway]

I have known people who experience terrible pain and misfortune and suffer very little. I also know several whose lives seem a continuum of suffering in the context of relatively little hardship. I suggest the difference between pain and suffering may be along the lines of pain describing the direct adverse effects and associated experience of a negative event, whereas as suffering is a secondary layer of adverse experience related to our reaction to the pain. I also think it’s important to recognize that someone with a very deep connection to an inner refuge may be able to transform or liberate enormous pain such that very little suffering occurs. Silent thunder and manitou come to mind for me, not to mention higher profile individuals like Garchen Rinpoche. I don’t expect their are many people, mothers or fathers, that could lose a child without experiencing profound pain and loss. The degree to which they suffer is likely to vary considerably however. I see parallels between this discussion and the topic of forgiveness. I highly recommend a film on the topic called Rubaru Roshni.

[liminal_luke]

9 minutes ago, natural said:

 

I am more than ready Luke to put down my burdens can we find a place of peace, without judgement where I may do so?

I would be so glad to meet you there!

 

Sure, I'd love to meet up.  No judgment here.  Although I talk a good talk, or try to, my experience is more like yours: if I touch a hot stove, I suffer plenty.  For this reason and more I prefer to stay away from red hot burners.  Maybe we could find a lunch spot with comfortable booths, airconditioning and two for one margaritas.  Lets keep the suffering to a minimum.

Edited June 21, 2022 by liminal_luke

[old3bob]

 Great souls also suffer a great deal in witness to the inhumanity of mankind to mankind that results in the loss of mankind's spiritual potential to do otherwise in those cases...they sure in the hell "are not above it all" or walk around in spiritual pretense spouting terms like, "straw dogs".

Edited June 21, 2022 by old3bob

[ralis]

1 hour ago, steve said:

I have known people who experience terrible pain and misfortune and suffer very little. I also know several whose lives seem a continuum of suffering in the context of relatively little hardship. I suggest the difference between pain and suffering may be along the lines of pain describing the direct adverse effects and associated experience of a negative event, whereas as suffering is a secondary layer of adverse experience related to our reaction to the pain. I also think it’s important to recognize that someone with a very deep connection to an inner refuge may be able to transform or liberate enormous pain such that very little suffering occurs. Silent thunder and manitou come to mind for me, not to mention higher profile individuals like Garchen Rinpoche. I don’t expect their are many people, mothers or fathers, that could lose a child without experiencing profound pain and loss. The degree to which they suffer is likely to vary considerably however. I see parallels between this discussion and the topic of forgiveness. I highly recommend a film on the topic called Rubaru Roshni.

 

Very few if any overcome millions of years of evolutionary hard wiring. Put any so called realized person in a war zone and see what happens. I guarantee basic instincts prevail in the need to survive. Talk is cheap, especially on the internet.

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

The mother who loses her child in a drive by shooting and remains serene is so weird I would wonder what’s wrong with her. What about accepting the feelings of massive grief, daily, for weeks, and somewhat reducing the long term impact of the loss at best. 

 

Yeah, while I believe that suffering can be optional I probably should of used another example.  The mother drive by scenario is admittedly extreme.

[ralis]

22 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yeah, while I believe that suffering can be optional I probably should of used another example.  The mother drive by scenario is admittedly extreme.

 

In what way is suffering optional? Please explain in detail how you go about it.

[liminal_luke]

9 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

In what way is suffering optional? Please explain in detail how you go about it.

 

Others more qualified than I to speak to this question can -- and have -- already explained.  I suggest reading previous postings in this thread by Steve, dwai, silent thunder, and manitou.  

Edited June 22, 2022 by liminal_luke

[ralis]

Just now, liminal_luke said:

 

Others more qualified than I to speak to this question can -- and have -- already explained.  I suggest reading previous postings in this thread by Steve, dwai, silent thunder, and manitou.

 

You stating that "suffering can be optional." I was asking you to defend your belief system.

[liminal_luke]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

You stating that "suffering can be optional." I was asking you to defend your belief system.

 

I'm not willing to defend my belief system.  It's not that impressive, really, as I take it you've gathered.  If I thought I could get any buyers, I'd sell it on Craigs List.

[manitou]

On 6/20/2022 at 5:55 PM, liminal_luke said:

Is there scientific justification for my mom to treat me and my brother differently?  Intelligent people can probably disagree on this point but I'll admit that my proverbial panties are somewhat twisted.  I tell my partner all the time that my mom doesn't love me, even though, deep down, I know this is a lie.  But the lizard brain part of me somehow believes this.  

 

 

 

One of the first things I heard when I went to my first AA meeting 40 years ago, was 'I don't give a shit how you feel about me....I'm going to love you anyway'.

 

I've never forgotten this, and in remembering it through the years, the meaning to me has gotten deeper and deeper.  If Gautama had this particular situation with him mom, I think he'd more likely think more about her and less about himself.  He would see that it wasn't as important that his feelings were a little hurt, but that it was more important to ensure that his mom and her partner felt secure and safe.  He would see that they're obviously afraid of bad health and dying, and that this isn't going to change any time soon.  Gautama would probably accept the situation without taking it personally at all, and he might even remember the 4 Agreements of Don Carlos Ruiz:

 

1.  Don't take anything personally

2.  Be impeccable with your word

3.  Don't make assumptions

4.  Always do your best.

 

Gautama would love her from a distance, if that's what it took.  Gautama would know that he could always change the situation by getting vaccinated, but maybe mom is looking at his reluctance to do so, and maybe his mom is thinking that he doesn't love her enough to get vaccinated for god's sake.  I thought I raised a good boy, she would think.  

[Mark Foote]

14 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I'm triple vaxxed and caught covid from another vaxxed person and we regularly wear masks.

 

There is no harm in sensible precautions of course - but this is something we are going to have to live with - some people are more high risk from serious illness of course but I fit the bill for that also but for me Covid was unpleasant but only lasted about a week.

 

 

I had both vaccinations and the first booster before I caught covid, in January.  The symptoms lasted five days, two with a slightly sore throat, and three with a runny nose.  I did get tested the second day after no symptoms, and the test came back positive.

I have two good friends who have refused vaccination.  One reported that she contracted the disease two weeks ago, and for her it was five days of mild illness, I presume similar to what I experienced.

I can only hope that my other unvaccinated friend experiences the virus the same way, as I think it's not a matter of "if" we all catch the virus, but when.  And I'll hope the same for you, liminal_luke!

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

The cat contracted a virus.  Bouts of sneezing, loss of appetite, liquidy stuff.  Today she's back to solid stuff, eating better, still sneezing.  

I don't know if she suffers much.  She's very fond of having her chin scratched, but once she moves on from it, she seems to just be where she is, as she is.

Sophie, recovering (this afternoon):

[liminal_luke]

9 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

One of the first things I heard when I went to my first AA meeting 40 years ago, was 'I don't give a shit how you feel about me....I'm going to love you anyway'.

 

Gautama would know that he could always change the situation by getting vaccinated, but maybe mom is looking at his reluctance to do so, and maybe his mom is thinking that he doesn't love her enough to get vaccinated for god's sake.  I thought I raised a good boy, she would think.  

 

I don't give a shit how you feel about me...I'm going to love you anyway.  Love this and yes, it's very applicable to my situation.  Thanks!

 

Is it possible that my mom thinks I'm less of a "good boy" because of my refusal to get vaccinated?  She hasn't said as much but I'm keenly aware of that possibility.  She wouldn't be the only one to think less of me because of my stance.  Differences about this issue have strained several of my friendships, one possibly past the breaking point.  A Bum I know has repeatedly voiced the opinion that the unvaccinated are selfish and uncaring.  There's a thread on the forum dedicated to analyzing the psychological pathology and spiritual shortcomings of so-called antivaccers.  Indeed, reading news stories and mainstream opinion pieces about vaccination it's easy to feel that the whole world is aligned against me.  This line of thinking isn't good for me and I've been trying, with limited success, not to go there.

 

Yes, I could change the situation by getting vaccinated, but I'm actually proud of myself for not having done so.  Against enormous societal pressure, I've continued to make the choice that I believe is right for me.  Is it the right choice?  Obviously I think so though I can't claim absolute certainty.  What I am sure of though is this: it's not the easy choice.  Sometimes I upbraid myself for being lazy and not following through on my resolutions.  I tell myself I'm not going to eat bagels and end up eating bagels.  I tell myself I'm going to do a certain amount of qigong practice and don't do it.  But in this one area of vaccination I've stood up and done what I think is right in spite of everything.  In this one area, I've been strong.

 

My apologies for this semi-rant. May I get to the point of saying... I don't give a shit what the world thinks of me, I'm gonna feel like I belong here on this planet and find a way to love all it's crazy people anyway. May the many people who have experienced discord and enmity around Covid mitigation measures dissolve their distress in the loving embrace of the infinite sky. 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by liminal_luke

[ralis]

6 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I don't give a shit how you feel about me...I'm going to love you anyway.  Love this and yes, it's very applicable to my situation.  Thanks!

 

Is it possible that my mom thinks I'm less of a "good boy" because of my refusal to get vaccinated?  She hasn't said as much but I'm keenly aware of that possibility.  She wouldn't be the only one to think less of me because of my stance.  Differences about this issue have strained several of my friendships, one possibly past the breaking point.  A Bum I know has repeatedly voiced the opinion that the unvaccinated are selfish and uncaring.  There's a thread on the forum dedicated to analyzing the psychological pathology and spiritual shortcomings of so-called antivaccers.  Indeed, reading news stories and mainstream opinion pieces about vaccination it's easy to feel that the whole world is aligned against me.  This line of thinking isn't good for me and I've been trying, with limited success, not to go there.

 

Yes, I could change the situation by getting vaccinated, but I'm actually proud of myself for not having done so.  Against enormous societal pressure, I've continued to make the choice that I believe is right for me.  Is it the right choice?  Obviously I think so though I can't claim absolute certainty.  What I am sure of though is this: it's not the easy choice.  Sometimes I upbraid myself for being lazy and not following through on my resolutions.  I tell myself I'm not going to eat bagels and end up eating bagels.  I tell myself I'm going to do a certain amount of qigong practice and don't do it.  But in this one area of vaccination I've stood up and done what I think is right in spite of everything.  In this one area, I've been strong.

 

My apologies for this semi-rant. May I get to the point of saying... I don't give a shit what the world thinks of me, I'm gonna feel like I belong here on this planet and find a way to love all it's crazy people anyway. May the many people who have experienced discord and enmity around Covid mitigation measures dissolve their distress in the loving embrace of the infinite sky. 

 

 

 

What about others that you spread Covid to when you are infected? If they die, is that love or compassion?