Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[liminal_luke]

6 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

What about others that you spread Covid to when you are infected? If they die, is that love or compassion? 

 

Out of compassion for the beautiful dualists and nondualists active in this thread, I will not further hijack the discussion with current-event-esque musings.  Hope you understand.

Edited June 22, 2022 by liminal_luke

[doc benway]

15 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

What about others that you spread Covid to when you are infected? If they die, is that love or compassion? 

There is very little data to suggest vaccination prevents Covid transmission. So what about the people you’ve killed so far by spreading Covid? This was a shitty thing to say @ralis. Do you always enjoy kicking people when they’re feeling vulnerable? You owe Luke an apology, IMO. 

 

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Out of compassion for the beautiful dualists and nondualists active in this thread, I will not further hijack the discussion with current-event-esque musings.  Hope you understand.

You’re a better man than me.

[ralis]

1 minute ago, steve said:

There is very little data to suggest vaccination prevents Covid transmission. So what about the people you’ve killed so far by spreading Covid? This was a shitty thing to say @ralis. Do you always enjoy kicking people when they’re feeling vulnerable? You owe Luke an apology, IMO. 

 

You’re a better man than me.

 

Not prevents, but reduces the spread of infection. Also lessens the severity of the infection. 

 

My apologies for offending him, but if the vaccination rate were upwards of 80-90%, then we wouldn't have these discussions. 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

Not prevents, but reduces the spread of infection. Also lessens the severity of the infection. 

 

My apologies for offending him, but if the vaccination rate were upwards of 80-90%, then we wouldn't have these discussions. 

 

 

Not sure on that, myself.  If I remember correctly, the 90% effective rate was supposed to indicate the inability of the virus to gain a foothold in the body, but it was only two months after the booster that I had a symptomatic infection, presumably of omicron.  My guess is that the vaccines are not that effective against omicron.

The friend who was not vaccinated had the same symptoms, the same degree of disease.

The virus, with its "advanced functionality" (I do believe), continues to mutate toward additional transmissibility.  More like the flu than measles, I'm afraid.

The folks who are immuno-compromised or otherwise at risk are going to have to wear N-95's.  Better air filtration at all mass indoor facilities, including restaurants and bars, should be required.  

My two cents.  and now we really, really return you to your regular programming...

Edited June 22, 2022 by Mark Foote

[dwai]

Moderator Note: If COVID is to be discussed, please request access to the Current Events sub-forum and post there. @ralis special note for you - these are discussions, it's best not to turn them into confrontations. 

[old3bob]

10 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

The cat contracted a virus.  Bouts of sneezing, loss of appetite, liquidy stuff.  Today she's back to solid stuff, eating better, still sneezing.  

I don't know if she suffers much.  She's very fond of having her chin scratched, but once she moves on from it, she seems to just be where she is, as she is.

Sophie, recovering (this afternoon):

 

took a minute to figure where your cats head was from that photo, but once seen its clear.  I wonder how much self healing a cat gets from their purring;  did you notice any difference with your cat along that line?

[old3bob]

I'd say unresolved karma by universal law definitely pulls one back from non-dual-ness, so what we have is that one can reach non-dual for an eternal moment(s) or timelessness if that term is preferred but to resolve and balance all dualistic weight of karma along with reaching full evolution of the soul-body and the final dissolution of ego to where there is no longer a being pulling back could take eons, eons which (granted) are momentarily set aside during an eternal moment of non-duality,  non-duality/Brahman as pointed to in the Upanishads.  

 

(btw we can't really nail eons down by hard and fast rules related to  earth time, for time is not the same in all the realms although some comparisons have been put forth;  thus one could say a cosmic cycle lasts anywhere from a half an eye blink to billions or trillions of years depending on related sight)  

Edited June 22, 2022 by old3bob

[manitou]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Yes, I could change the situation by getting vaccinated, but I'm actually proud of myself for not having done so.

 

 

It's good that you have this pride in your rebelliousness.  So the price tag for this is accepting the Is-ness of the people around you.  People may have a little fear to be around someone that isn't vaxxed - your mom, apparently.

 

I always had pride in my rebelliousness too, until I realized one day that I was cutting off half of my options.  When someone told me to go left, I had to go right - just to reinforce that rebelliousness and separateness, and in my case, it was just to be noticed, I think.  If this tendency is eliminated, we have access to 100% of our options.  We can go either left or right.  It doesn't matter who tells us what.

[natural]

41 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

It's good that you have this pride in your rebelliousness.  So the price tag for this is accepting the Is-ness of the people around you.  People may have a little fear to be around someone that isn't vaxxed - your mom, apparently.

 

I always had pride in my rebelliousness too, until I realized one day that I was cutting off half of my options.  When someone told me to go left, I had to go right - just to reinforce that rebelliousness and separateness, and in my case, it was just to be noticed, I think.  If this tendency is eliminated, we have access to 100% of our options.  We can go either left or right.  It doesn't matter who tells us what.

 

Something along the lines of:

Some people are born to greatness (or contrariness) some are thrust into it and others strive for it.

I for one have not taken directions easily, but found great comfort or joy in providing them to others.

 

As I have aged I mellowed, and do not feel as compelled to control as I use to!

[liminal_luke]

48 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

It's good that you have this pride in your rebelliousness.  So the price tag for this is accepting the Is-ness of the people around you.  People may have a little fear to be around someone that isn't vaxxed - your mom, apparently.

 

 

Ah, manitou.  Do I, as you suggest, have pride in my rebelliousness?  Maybe sometimes, a little, around the edges, but I'm not ready to say that's what is going on here.  To me that's putting an unnecessarily negative spin on what I continue to see as a positive quality.  I don't think I'm refusing vaccination because I want to be a rebel; I think I'm refusing vaccination because I honestly think that's the right choice for me. You're right about the price though -- I will have to accept the is-ness of the other people in my life who see things differently.  Even you. 

[old3bob]

so everybody (or several) is ignoring Steve Dwai and continuing with covid related stuff?

Edited June 22, 2022 by old3bob

[silent thunder]

18 hours ago, ralis said:

 

In what way is suffering optional? Please explain in detail how you go about it.

Figure it out yourself.  No one owes you a free lesson.

18 hours ago, ralis said:

 

You stating that "suffering can be optional." I was asking you to defend your belief system.

 

Puffed up and parading around from thread to thread demanding things of others, condemning and bullying.  Who cares if you agree or not, or if you understand or not?  We're having a conversation and you appear only interested in policing your belief system and acting with some sort of self imposed authority.  You're just some old guy with strong opinions and a rigid belief structure living in the desert.  The health of the tree is revealed in the quality of the fruit.

 

Do the work yourself and see what arises, or don't, it matters not a whit.  But stop with the bullying.  Between you and old fundy bob it's a wonder any conversation is maintainable. [ignored....again]

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by silent thunder

[natural]

2 minutes ago, old3bob said:

so everybody is ignoring Steve and continuing with covid related stuff?

I guess we are just contrarians at heart.

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

took a minute to figure where your cats head was from that photo, but once seen its clear.  I wonder how much self healing a cat gets from their purring;  did you notice any difference with your cat along that line?

 

 I think Sophie mostly purrs to let me know she's there, and please don't step on her/lie on her/disturb her.  She doesn't purr when I scratch her chin, but she presents her chin and clearly enjoys it.

Maybe she's the exception, I don't know.

 

"Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear. From out of the past come the thundering hoof-beats...":

 

The essential thing in studying the way is to make the roots deep and the stem strong.  Be aware of where you really are 24 hours a day. You must be most attentive. When nothing at all gets on your mind, it all merges harmoniously, without boundaries--the whole thing is empty and still, and there is no more doubt or hesitation in anything you do.  This is called the fundamental matter appearing ready-made.

 

As soon as you give rise to the slightest bit of dualistic perception or arbitrary understanding and you want to take charge of this fundamental matter and act the master, then you immediately fall into the realm of the clusters of form, sensation, conception, value synthesis, and consciousness.  You are entrapped by seeing, hearing, feeling, and knowing, by gain and loss and right and wrong.  You are half drunk and half sober and unable to clean all this up.

 

(“Zen Letters: the Teachings of Yuanwu”, tr. Thomas Cleary, pg 53, emphasis added)

 

 

The advice to "be aware of where you really are 24 hours a day" seems straightforward, and Sophie seems to have no problem with it.  I don't see doubt or hesitation in what she does, so I guess it all merges harmoniously for her, without boundaries.  That is to say, the cats outside the fence enter into her zazen, maybe cats on the other side of the world enter into her zazen, and when the place where she finds herself jumps into the rocking chair, it is without hesitation:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

Moderator Note: This is the last attempt to prevent further COVID discussions. I will lock this thread down if the trend continues.  

[Mark Foote]

18 hours ago, ralis said:

 

In what way is suffering optional? Please explain in detail how you go about it.

 

 

First, we hang all the lawyers.

Gautama taught four "truths" concerning suffering.  To me, the "truths" apply if the first truth applies, "suffering exists".  That's not some kind of universal statement, that there is suffering in the world and it will always be with us, though I know some Buddhists take it that way.  If I experience suffering, then the second, third, and fourth truths are useful to me.

 

The chain of causation behind suffering and behind the cessation of suffering constitutes the heart of the second and third truths.  These truths are inspirational, to me.

The fourth truth is the path leading to the end of suffering. 

 

Gautama doesn't posit an instant end of suffering.  Here's an unusual statement of the eight-fold path, but the only one that I find appealing:

 

(Anyone)…knowing and seeing eye as it really is, knowing and seeing material shapes… visual consciousness… impact on the eye as it really is, and knowing, seeing as it really is the experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is not attached to the eye nor to material shapes nor to visual consciousness nor to impact on the eye; and that experience, whether pleasant, painful, or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye—neither to that is (such a one) attached. …(Such a one’s) physical anxieties decrease, and mental anxieties decrease, and bodily torments… and mental torments… and bodily fevers decrease, and mental fevers decrease. (Such a one) experiences happiness of body and happiness of mind. (repeated for ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind).

 

Whatever is the view of what really is, that for (such a one) is right view; whatever is aspiration for what really is, that for (such a one) is right aspiration; whatever is endeavour for what really is, that is for (such a one) right endeavour; whatever is mindfulness of what really is, that is for (such a one) right mindfulness; whatever is concentration on what really is, that is for (such a one) right concentration. And (such a one’s) past acts of body, acts of speech, and mode of livelihood have been well purified.

 

(MN III 287-289, Pali Text Society V 3 p 337-338)
 

The experience of the senses he described was surely informed by his attainment of a cessation of habit and volition in perceiving and feeling, recalling that in his account of that cessation, he said that there was "only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself."

He spoke of a mundane eight-fold path on the side of merit and demerit, and a super-mundane path.  Apparently it's not enough to pursue an eight-fold path based on the discrimination of right and wrong (even though he spoke of "right view, right aspiration", etc.).
 

When I'm hurt, I know I'm grateful for whatever concentration I can find, as the way I experience pain changes in concentration.  I have to hope that if I am dying of a pain or illness, I can still find concentration.  

 

[Cobie]

1 minute ago, Mark Foote said:

… we hang all the lawyers. …

Objection 

[Mark Foote]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Objection 

 

 

Objection sustained, the Bard was out of line!

[doc benway]

2 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Objection 

Overruled!

[natural]

I continue to wonder why when things go bad and I get/accept the blame, but don't get nor expect credit when things go well. ; )

[manitou]

23 hours ago, steve said:

I have known people who experience terrible pain and misfortune and suffer very little. I also know several whose lives seem a continuum of suffering in the context of relatively little hardship. I suggest the difference between pain and suffering may be along the lines of pain describing the direct adverse effects and associated experience of a negative event, whereas as suffering is a secondary layer of adverse experience related to our reaction to the pain. I also think it’s important to recognize that someone with a very deep connection to an inner refuge may be able to transform or liberate enormous pain such that very little suffering occurs. Silent thunder and manitou come to mind for me, not to mention higher profile individuals like Garchen Rinpoche. I don’t expect their are many people, mothers or fathers, that could lose a child without experiencing profound pain and loss. The degree to which they suffer is likely to vary considerably however. I see parallels between this discussion and the topic of forgiveness. I highly recommend a film on the topic called Rubaru Roshni.

 

 

Thanks for the nice words, Steve.  It seems to me that what we're talking about is attachments, all the way around.  Having a deep connection to an inner refuge is one way of saying it, but that's not quite it either.  It's like walking through life with a little detachment to everything - of course it's going to be much harder if you lose your child in a drive-by shooting.  The attachment there is undeniable, in a human sense.  But there is always the knowledge of that Presence within, the place that doesn't age or doesn't move; somehow it is separate from all this.  I guess that's a refuge, but it really doesn't feel like one - not a place to withdraw to, as refuge would connotate.  It's like climbing onto a different branch for a different vantage point.  It happens in an instant, once the changing awareness is available for our use.

 

This seems so cold.  In a way, it is.  But there's something that comes to the forefront that reminds me that we're all the same body, and does it really matter who dies when and where?  And it reminds me that it's all happening now; in fact, it's already happened.  I think this developed the most in me when Joe died - the pain was so extreme, the attachment so deep, that it was very close to being unbearable.  But out of all this pain, something was born of it.  It's like ever since then, I've had the option of managing the amount of pain I chose to be in.  How much do I want to inhabit this body, or in the awareness of the communal body?  The communal body hurts a lot less.  It doesn't get as riled up about things, and it really accept people for who they are a whole lot easier.  The communal body doesn't place blame, and it doesn't expect anything from anyone.  But to inhabit the communal body is to jump off the emotional roller coaster.  Most folks would see this as being cold, I imagine.  I now see it as realistic.

[old3bob]

"I fought the law and the law won", (their headgear must be great for below freezing temps)
 

[Apech]

31 minutes ago, natural said:

I continue to wonder why when things go bad and I get/accept the blame, but don't get nor expect credit when things go well. ; )

Because it’s always your fault - get used to it

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

Thanks for the nice words, Steve.  It seems to me that what we're talking about is attachments, all the way around.  Having a deep connection to an inner refuge is one way of saying it, but that's not quite it either.  It's like walking through life with a little detachment to everything - of course it's going to be much harder if you lose your child in a drive-by shooting.  The attachment there is undeniable, in a human sense.  But there is always the knowledge of that Presence within, the place that doesn't age or doesn't move; somehow it is separate from all this.  I guess that's a refuge, but it really doesn't feel like one - not a place to withdraw to, as refuge would connotate.  It's like climbing onto a different branch for a different vantage point.  It happens in an instant, once the changing awareness is available for our use.

Yes, that is it! Some people claim that it is emotional avoidance/dissociation, but I found that it is not so. Emotions still arise, but they seldom have the power to completely cloud the mind. I will narrate a very personal anecdote. When I was 20 years old, my father passed away in the most unexpected way after being hospitalized for 7 days. In the Hindu tradition, the body of the deceased is brought home and the immediate family sits around it in mourning while physically staying in contact with the body.

 

Friends, and neighbors, stop by to pay their respects, to console the bereaved (if not for anything else but to show that they are there). As his body lay on the floor, the tears started flowing, and I was bawling like a little child. And strangely enough, something happened - a part of me separated from this scene, and was observing the happenings, completely unaffected by those that were crying all around, myself included. I literally saw myself bawling there on the floor, my palms resting on my father's legs. The difference was so vivid and stark, that the memory is still fresh like it were yesterday, as I think about it. I think that was what set me down the spiritual path (or at least was partially responsible for it). 

Quote

 

This seems so cold.  In a way, it is.  But there's something that comes to the forefront that reminds me that we're all the same body, and does it really matter who dies when and where?  And it reminds me that it's all happening now; in fact, it's already happened.  I think this developed the most in me when Joe died - the pain was so extreme, the attachment so deep, that it was very close to being unbearable.  But out of all this pain, something was born of it.  It's like ever since then, I've had the option of managing the amount of pain I chose to be in.  How much do I want to inhabit this body, or in the awareness of the communal body?  The communal body hurts a lot less.  It doesn't get as riled up about things, and it really accept people for who they are a whole lot easier.  The communal body doesn't place blame, and it doesn't expect anything from anyone.  But to inhabit the communal body is to jump off the emotional roller coaster.  Most folks would see this as being cold, I imagine.  I now see it as realistic.

Over time, I lost many loved ones, but that "unaffected" awareness seemed to always emerge. Over time, as my practice matured, the split became permanent. There is beautiful verse in the Mundaka Upanishad that gives the analogy of two birds on a tree. I'm sharing a wonderful poem inspired by that by a Swami of the Ramakrishna Order -- 

 

https://vedantaprov.org/two-birds-on-the-tree/

 

Quote

Two birds of beautiful plumage perched on the tree,
One bound to the world and the other eternally free.

 

The free bird, serene, stood still on the tree-top,

Watching the lower one, bound, on the twigs do a hop.

 

Eating the fruits both sweet and bitter,

Spend its time and resources in a fritter.

 

The serene transcended both pleasure and pain,

Eating the fruits, the bound remained in chain.

 

The pain of bitter fruits taught it lessons of regret,

The pleasure of sweet fruits made it forget.

 

The pain of bitterness made the bound to ponder,

Resolving to reach the serene on the yonder.

 

Relinquishing its resolve with the arrival of pleasure,

Indulges in eating fruits again to go beyond at its leisure.

 

But the frequent bitterness in fruits kept it in remind,

To reach the serene as the goal of the mind.

 

Rises up to reach the serene, it will, only if little by little

At its own pace and measure to prove its mettle.

 

Approaching the serene it no longer remains bound

It and the serene were always One and so It found.

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by dwai

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, ralis said:

 

Very few if any overcome millions of years of evolutionary hard wiring. Put any so called realized person in a war zone and see what happens. I guarantee basic instincts prevail in the need to survive. Talk is cheap, especially on the internet.

 

I could relate to what Steve said ... but due to experience ; ie. not 'spiritually philosophising '   but meeting those people that WHERE like that  IN the 'war zone' .  I've talked before about my past, working with refugees and torture victims and and in the Accident and Emergency ( and other )  Wards.

 

Two cases come to mind; One an Iranian woman - sweet as pie , but then explains she is a torture victim and shows me where pieces of her had been removed  (as a 'punishment' for 'wrong beliefs' ) . I asked her how she could live with the trauma  and she  she did it by thinking it would be a lot worse if she had been the perpetrator  other than the victim .  She shuddered, imagining and said; " Just think, having to live your life, knowing that you had done things like that to people !  What sort off person would that make you ? I would rather be this person that I am now . I feel sorry for the man that did this and I hope he comes to repent before God  and finds forgiveness . "

 

 

The second one was two events in one day ; a guy came into A&E ward that had his lower abdomen, hips and thighs run over by a road roller  !  Then a woman with an ingrown toe nail that needed surgical attention .  No doubt that IS painful, but this woman ! OMG one of the most complaining and difficult patients ever .  The 'steam roller guy' had a few operations and I remember caring for him after wards, a fantastic patient , he actually apologised to me for 'causing so much trouble and bother ' .

 

End of story ?  Woman delayed surgery  and then agreed but by then they needed to remove the toe , she did the same again and it spread to foot , the idea of removing the foot freaked  her out and she delayed surgery again , then it spread to leg, the same ... yes, she actually ended up dying from originally what was an in grown toenail !

 

'Steam roller guy' ? He got moved to rehab unit, so I didnt see him for a few weeks until one day at lunch time I went for a swim in the hospital pool and here he was doing laps !  "What the hell is going on ? I asked him .  " Rehab . " and gave me a big grin .... yeah, his legs where kicking and he was moving along pretty good .

 

..... I also agree talk is cheap, especially on internet