Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[manitou]

53 minutes ago, C T said:

 

Interesting. 

 

Assuming reversion occurs (which to my mind sounds likely, although there's that factor of simultaneous movement of expansion which requires equal consideration, too), Im not yet fully convinced of the necessity to reduce the ultimate fate of the 10,000 things to One since this process of reversion, as pointed out, is that which serves as the underlay, which, to my mind, must then mean this One, if indeed it is thus, must also be subject to it, without exception. Unless of course I have misunderstood the finality/ultimatum this One implies. 

 

 

It seems that expansion takes up space, reversion involves time.  Maybe the two together are like a balloon being squeezed in one place and getting larger in another.  It isn't lost on me that it used to take months for a letter to cross the Atlantic, and now we speak instantaneously with each other across the planet.  It's like we've conquered time in some respect.  Surely space/expansion is affected by this too, to the opposite, maybe.

 

Maybe this is what black holes are all about, once a universe has returned to the One.  Maybe the big bangs are the other side of that.  Maybe it goes in and out like a bellows, as it says in the DDJ, in this very respect, like a needle in and out of fabric.  I too see that there is a finality/ultimatum on this.

 

And I think this underlay is the One, the broth which contains the vegetables.  The 99.9999999999999% of matter, as with the atom metaphor.  It's like the Native American concept of 'manitou' - two levels to it.  One level is if you see a tree that is shaped like a bear (think kudzu), it is said that that tree has the manitou of a bear.  But on the deepest level, manitou is the 'spirit which underlies everything'.  This is the One, the invisible broth which contains all.  The void where ideation forms.

 

I think the broth of the soup is where the real intent is; matter is the temporary idea that comes and goes, the veggies.

 

 

[silent thunder]

If all reverts to Tao. 

The Tao is not one.  It is not a thing.  It is not a nothing. 

 

Tao is Tao, unspeakable, undefinable, ineffible.

 

So we do not revert to One, we revert to Tao, which is foundationally preconditional to any 'one'.

And again, we're holding this conversation in the realm of word objects and conceptualization.

 

And as soon as we intellectualize something, it is no longer what was experienced.

 

Be here, now.  What else is there that is required?

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

8 minutes ago, manitou said:

Maybe this is what black holes are all about, once a universe has returned to the One.

 

I've read some interesting stuff suggesting that black holes could represent the birth of new universes.

It's a bit speculative and depends on string theory which is not too widely accepted but interesting.

https://interestingengineering.com/black-holes-might-lead-to-the-birth-of-new-universes#:~:text=In other words%2C the study,unify all forces in nature.

[natural]

9 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I've read some interesting stuff suggesting that black holes could represent the birth of new universes.

It's a bit speculative and depends on string theory which is not too widely accepted but interesting.

https://interestingengineering.com/black-holes-might-lead-to-the-birth-of-new-universes#:~:text=In other words%2C the study,unify all forces in nature.

 

You are IMHO skirting on the edge.

I generally don't have a problem digesting these theories, but I do require some rumination.

I look forward to more discussion on this. 

[old3bob]

18 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

A leap of faith and an abiding awareness of breath, in my experience.  The emphasis on awareness of breath is the real strength of the teaching of the Gautamid (IMO).

At least, as far as ishinashini.  "Let the mind be present, without abode"--that's a relinquishment of volition in action of the body too, and anybody can experience that just before they fall asleep (more easily if they are trying to fall back asleep at 4am, and have had a drink of water).  That's what my Waking Up and Falling Asleep is all about.

 

I don't know about those Buddhist terms for myself... but ime there is whatever awareness of breath before and after but not during if you know what I mean?  (for then breath stops or takes care of itself) For instance  a surfer may move so very fast that everything stands still and silent at once...for a timeless moment.

(Aka getting tubed in an eye of power without hesitation or fear ;-)

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by old3bob

[C T]

On 24/06/2022 at 2:36 AM, Apech said:

 

'Object' means literally what is 'thrown out' and so to posit an objectively real world simply means that the products of activity do actually exist or that the substance from which they are made is real.  Empirical experience backs up this belief because the objective world is reliable, in that things are stable within the field in which they operate.  A chair does not suddenly become a motor car, air does not become earth and so on.

 

 

 

Depends, I think. A nuclear physicist and a cave hermit, or a DIY expert and us will have significant contrasting ideations and experiences of 'suddenly'. With regards to the stability of things that are thrown out, reliability and constancy is worth considering together. Theoretically, a consciousness having suspended space/time momentarily can indeed instantaneously transform a motor car into a chair, which is actually rather mild compared to more fantastical, even bizarre, transformations which I'm sure we've experienced in the world of dreams. Avidya has forced upon most to regard the waking world as real, prompting a fake sense of stability where things do not suddenly change, and the dream world can only be regarded one dimensionally simply because of its ephemeral nature. Those who practice dream yoga will say that world is far from one dimensional, imo. 

 

But sudden change is not that uncommon, isn't it? Its an observable natural phenomenon - for example, how lives were permanently altered within seconds when the tsunami hit many parts of SE Asia not that long ago. Survivors not familiar with relativity and impermanence may well reflect in hindsight on the surreality of it all, and may even proclaim the nightmarish experience as dream-like. Im quite sure a significant number would have. 

[Bindi]

From what I can gather things are not reliable and constant on the quantum level but when it comes to visible things they are. If quantum reality can be manipulated, maybe a car can become a chair. 

[Bindi]

@Apech, you suggested earlier that "mind" equals mind plus spirit, but it still seems to be limited to specifically 'mental consciousness' when I read it in a text. 

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

@Apech, you suggested earlier that "mind" equals mind plus spirit, but it still seems to be limited to specifically 'mental consciousness' when I read it in a text. 

 

Which text do you mean?

[C T]

19 hours ago, silent thunder said:

If all reverts to Tao. 

The Tao is not one.  It is not a thing.  It is not a nothing. 

 

Tao is Tao, unspeakable, undefinable, ineffible.

 

So we do not revert to One, we revert to Tao, which is foundationally preconditional to any 'one'.

And again, we're holding this conversation in the realm of word objects and conceptualization.

 

And as soon as we intellectualize something, it is no longer what was experienced.

 

Be here, now.  What else is there that is required?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[manitou]

21 hours ago, silent thunder said:

If all reverts to Tao. 

The Tao is not one.  It is not a thing.  It is not a nothing. 

 

Tao is Tao, unspeakable, undefinable, ineffible.

 

So we do not revert to One, we revert to Tao, which is foundationally preconditional to any 'one'.

And again, we're holding this conversation in the realm of word objects and conceptualization.

 

And as soon as we intellectualize something, it is no longer what was experienced.

 

Be here, now.  What else is there that is required?

 

 

 

 

 

 

So excellent.

 

My point on reversion to the One is that it would go back from the 10,000 through the Three through the Two through the One to get to the ineffable, the backwards working of the production of the 10,000 things.  It would get to the place prior to ideation, the void.  The Dao.  The place where time and space are not.  How odd that our minds must understand things in a linear fashion.  Our only dimension, I guess.

  Except the dream world!  Maybe the dream world is realer than the physical one.

  I'm checking into going to South America and having an ayahuasca experience.  If I get any answers, I'll report back here .....  I figure at the forgetful old age of 75, what the heck difference does it make?  Probably my marbles will get rearranged.

 

Thanks for posting that video, @CT!  The bellows.  The randomness and potential for so many zillions of scenarios at any given moment (specifically, prior to a "moment" where time is the measurement) this could well be the answer I'm always looking for about the buddhalands of the Sutras.  Countless moments of ideations, all stemming from the void, pre-ideation.  It's that pre-ideation that binds us, that is our "soul", the thing that pushes upwards in us to Understand.  Understand what?  We don't know.  But somehow, it wants to know itself in physical form, perfected physical form.  That same impetus that is within all of us, regardless of path; even the impetus in an atheist to reject the suggestion that there is a dual 'something' to deny.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by manitou

[Apech]

Rainbow Body and Subtle Atomic Body

In general, in traditions like the Sakyapa and other traditions, sometime people say, “Oh this is a rainbow body, that is a rainbow body.” Even some practitioners may have their physical bodies disappear and they consider this a rainbow body. But that is not a rainbow body.

In the Dzogchen Teaching this is called lü dultren du tengpa (lus rdul phran du dengs pa). That means the physical body is entered into dultren, very, very, very tiny atoms, and we cannot see it. Someone is at a high level of the practice and they can reach the state of the dharmakaya.

That is the reason it is becoming that kind of lü dultren du tengpa and rainbow means it is active, something concrete manifests.

You see there is a painting of the Guru Padmasambhava and at the center of the Guru Padmasambhava there is a small thigle. From this thigle the lights of five colors come out, bigger and bigger, until the dimension of the Guru Padmasambhava has become filled with this light. Most people like this thanka, or painting, very much. This painting was originally painted by someone in the Sakyapa tradition. But whoever painted this has no knowledge of the rainbow body. The rainbow body isn’t like that. The rainbow body means our physical body, for example, our nose, our face, our front, everything is integrated with the five elements.

Some people may have the capacity to see someone who has attained the rainbow body. The nature of our bodies, when they are truly integrated with the five colors or five elements in the rainbow body, appear in just the same way for these people as our bodies would appear in the physical or relative dimension. For example, the rainbow body of Guru Padmasambhava would appear to someone with sufficient capacity just as he is, and without his dimension being filled the five colors. So it is very important you should know that.

Nobody knows if some one of you will realize the rainbow body. When the rainbow body manifests, only the hair and nails remain. Everything else disappears. ... So why then do the hair and nails remain? It is because these are the two aspects of our impure physical body. Hair is always growing. We are cutting it again and again, and still it is always growing. The impure aspect of our physical body is like that. It is the same with the finger and toenails. So this is the symbol of the impure.

This is very important to understand. If you realize the rainbow body then you have no problems! Ok, now we finish and dedicate merits.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

[silent thunder]

7 hours ago, C T said:

 

 

Thanks for sharing this.  I enjoyed hearing him describing his fascination with the materialist conceptualization of physics.   I've not spent much time studying the buddhist cosmology of manifestation, but I've been an enraptured amateur physicist most of my adult life. 

 

David Bohm and Krishnamurti worked together on unifying their respective paradigms for several decades after their meeting and initial realization that of all the folks they'd met and spoken to over their careers to that point, they each understood each other on a level seldom achieved with any others... all this from seemingly opposing positions, Bohm being a Western scientist and Krishnamurti an Eastern esotericist.  Yet as you approach source from any avenue, the realizations begin to mirror each other and reflect the truth of foundational source.  all stem from and return to source it seems.

 

Some of their conversations are available on the youtubez and are fascinating.  They walked common ground from very differing positions.  Their work together is also reminiscent of Fritjoff Capra's synthesizing work The Tao of Physics, which was based on his spontaneous realization of the underlying unifying realizations of western scientism, particularly quantum theory and the established tenets of eastern esoctericism.

 

As i conceptualize it, tao is foundational, prior to the one speck (singularity).  Awareness is foundational... all the way up and down, it's awareness.  What we call 'manifest' or material reality, is emptiness in form, which arises in awareness pivots about its center then returns.  I find myself pondering if tao/awareness are synonymous, or if awareness arises from tao.

 

Within raw awareness there is no distinction of this and that... it is pure, raw, seemingly ground state.  It is radiant clarity, void of conceptualization.  When awareness identifies with form, this^{to me}  is entering a role within the play of Maya and it is here that foundational awareness divides into the 10,000 within the illusion of emptiness in form.  One of these levels being this one we are sharing this theater of life and conversing/experiencing together.  The Bon and Tibetan notions of shared dreaming and layers of dreaming have become central to my own paradigm over the years.  It's so compelling for me of late, I'm mulling over locating and reaching out to a Dzogchen/Bon teacher for some conversations regarding this to explore in more depth.

 

Though all individual forms and distinctions are constantly passing away, illusory, gossamer, ephemeral, intrinsically transient and returning to source; Awareness seems foundational and unifying... unchanging, undying.

 

Does Tao give rise to Awareness?  Is Awareness The One which is birthed from Tao?

Or is Awareness intrinsic to Tao?  This is the pivotal question whose answer i waffle back and forth, it is a fascinating bone to chew.  But alas, it's a conceptualization and thus, form dependent, and so... limited.  Ever the menu, never the meal.

 

The paradox of raw experiential awareness, and then the process of thinking/conceptualizing and attempting to speak and sharing it with others, is as frustrating as it is fascinating.  The connections it engenders is why i keep coming back here.  This is fertile ground for connection and so far in this life, connection is as close as I've come to a meaning for my life.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2022 by silent thunder

[Bindi]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Which text do you mean?

When I read something from the nondual traditions for example dzogchen. Below is an explanation of ‘mind-itself’, I understand it’s not mundane mind, but it still seems mind based if the word gnosis or even awareness can be applied to it. 
 

Dzogchen theory focuses above all on mind-itself, which is seen as a primordially pure, empty, and luminous gnosis (yeshe) or awareness (rigpa), which must be distinguished from unenlightened “ordinary” mind (sem). Awareness is not only the true nature of each individual sentient being but the very source and substance—in Yogacara terms, the foundation (alaya)—of the cosmos itself. Rigpa is conventionally divisible into essence, nature, and compassionate energy, and includes within it all of samsara and nirvana. Beginninglessly pure mind-itself is captured symbolically in the figure of the primordial buddha Samantabhadra (luminosity) and his consort, Samantabhadri (emptiness).

https://www.lionsroar.com/empty-pure-luminous-mind-in-dzogchen-and-mahamudra/

[blue eyed snake]

oow, this is very well formulated, need to read more of that

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

When I read something from the nondual traditions for example dzogchen. Below is an explanation of ‘mind-itself’, I understand it’s not mundane mind, but it still seems mind based if the word gnosis or even awareness can be applied to it. 
 

Dzogchen theory focuses above all on mind-itself, which is seen as a primordially pure, empty, and luminous gnosis (yeshe) or awareness (rigpa), which must be distinguished from unenlightened “ordinary” mind (sem). Awareness is not only the true nature of each individual sentient being but the very source and substance—in Yogacara terms, the foundation (alaya)—of the cosmos itself. Rigpa is conventionally divisible into essence, nature, and compassionate energy, and includes within it all of samsara and nirvana. Beginninglessly pure mind-itself is captured symbolically in the figure of the primordial buddha Samantabhadra (luminosity) and his consort, Samantabhadri (emptiness).

https://www.lionsroar.com/empty-pure-luminous-mind-in-dzogchen-and-mahamudra/

Compare the above to this:

 

Bhagawan Sri Ramana Maharshi (B) taught that the heart, not the head, is the true seat of Consciousness; but by this he did not mean the physical organ at the left side of the chest but the heart at the right, and by 'consciousness' he did not mean thought but pure awareness or sense of being. He had found this from his own experience to be the centre of spiritual awareness and then found his experience confirmed in some ancient texts.

When his devotees were instructed to concentrate on the heart, it was this spiritual heart on the right that was referred to; and they also found it the centre of an actual, almost physical vibration of awareness. However, he would also speak of the Heart as equivalent to the Self and remind them that in truth it is not in the body at all, but is spaceless.

https://www.speakingtree.in/blog/sri-ramana-maharshi-on-heart

 

Ramana also refers to awareness, but it’s centre is within the body, the ‘spiritual heart’ as opposed to the head, which can be felt as an almost physical vibration. He goes on to say it is spaceeless, though it’s hard to square that with ‘almost physical vibration’ and an exact location. Maybe nonduality 😱
 

But then I just now come across this from Wikipedia:
 

Dzogchen texts also describe how rigpa is connected to the energy body. Dzogchen tantras explain that rigpa can be located in the center of the human body, in the heart centre. The Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra states: "The jewel present within the heart in the center of one’s body is great pristine consciousness."^[21]

Furthermore, the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra states:

The transcendent state of the perfect buddhas is supported. It is supported on the material aggregate, for example, like an eagle sleeping in its nest. It has a location. It is located in the heart, for example, like a figure in a vase.^[22]
 

I have the idea that what is important is centred within us, and that it is important to establish it first within as the source, before identifying with everything ‘out there’ and maybe missing what’s ‘in here’.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Bindi

[old3bob]

"...However, he would also speak of the Heart as equivalent to the Self and remind them that in truth it is not in the body at all, but is spaceless...."

 

umm, I'd say there is a universal nexus so to speak in body for the Self which is not limited to the physical at all, which is why the Self realized are heard to say, "see all in the Self and the Self in all"  (which is pointed to thoroughly in several Upanishads)

[Mark Foote]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Dzogchen texts also describe how rigpa is connected to the energy body. Dzogchen tantras explain that rigpa can be located in the center of the human body, in the heart centre. The Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra states: "The jewel present within the heart in the center of one’s body is great pristine consciousness."

 

Furthermore, the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra states:

The transcendent state of the perfect buddhas is supported. It is supported on the material aggregate, for example, like an eagle sleeping in its nest. It has a location. It is located in the heart, for example, like a figure in a vase.

 

(Wikipedia)

I have the idea that what is important is centred within us, and that it is important to establish it first within as the source, before identifying with everything ‘out there’ and maybe missing what’s ‘in here’.
 

 

 

We'll have fun, fun, fun, 'til her daddy takes the T-bird away...  (Beach Boys)

 

 

It took me a long time to study anatomy seriously (I had to prove to myself it was necessary), and I'll be the first to confess, the relationship between the presence of the heart-mind without abode and kinesthesiology is not straightforward.

 

Nevertheless.  I make use of the science that says stretch in the ligaments that connect bone to bone can give rise to activity in the muscles of the body.  That stretch of ligaments is subtle, for the most part, but there's a tendency to reciprocating activity in agonist/antagonist muscle groups as a result.  I have to feel the stretch, to key appropriate relaxation, to feel the stretch.

I look for particulars at first, but I definitely have to work with the location of self-awareness in space to avoid strain.  
 

 ... like an eagle sleeping in its nest. It has a location.

 

Self-awareness has a location, but the location is unrestricted, can move as though in open space (as when falling asleep, "sleeping in its nest").  The stretch can be localized in the vicinity of self-awareness, or the stretch can be generalized, as the lack of restriction on the location of self-awareness is realized.  

At some point, the lack of restriction on the location of self-awareness means things beyond the boundaries of the senses, seemingly outside the body, help to place awareness in space.  

Bending the knees in kneeling, sitting cross-legged, or standing, seems to encourage particular locations of self-awareness.
 

The jewel present within the heart in the center of one’s body is great pristine consciousness.

(Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra)

 

 

However, he would also speak of the Heart as equivalent to the Self and remind them that in truth it is not in the body at all, but is spaceless.

 

(Bhagawan Sri Ramana Maharshi on heart)

Edited June 26, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Bindi]

Removing a single proton from the nucleus of a mercury atom transforms it into gold, thus the ability to manipulate atoms at a quantum level would be all that is needed for external alchemy to become a reality. Not a car to a chair, but it would be an interesting demonstration of some sort of quantum ability. 
 

 

[Apech]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

When I read something from the nondual traditions for example dzogchen. Below is an explanation of ‘mind-itself’, I understand it’s not mundane mind, but it still seems mind based if the word gnosis or even awareness can be applied to it. 
 

Dzogchen theory focuses above all on mind-itself, which is seen as a primordially pure, empty, and luminous gnosis (yeshe) or awareness (rigpa), which must be distinguished from unenlightened “ordinary” mind (sem). Awareness is not only the true nature of each individual sentient being but the very source and substance—in Yogacara terms, the foundation (alaya)—of the cosmos itself. Rigpa is conventionally divisible into essence, nature, and compassionate energy, and includes within it all of samsara and nirvana. Beginninglessly pure mind-itself is captured symbolically in the figure of the primordial buddha Samantabhadra (luminosity) and his consort, Samantabhadri (emptiness).

https://www.lionsroar.com/empty-pure-luminous-mind-in-dzogchen-and-mahamudra/

 

I probably should have explained that it is my own preference to use spirit instead of mind - this is because when the word mind is used in some contexts and systems they mean something much more than 'that which thinks' ... For me what is being spoken about is something like sentient energy or conscious energy - in that it has both the capacity for awareness and also action - it does or accomplishes everything.  Spirit is more a term from Western thought, Hermeticism or Christian mysticism.

 

But in Sanskrit there are a number of words which would be translated as mind such as jnana, vijnana, citta and manas.  Citta is interesting because originally it was a Samkhya term for mind-substance, that is the very fine state of matter which has the capacity to take up form and then discharge it.  Like a mental substrate or medium in which thoughts appear.  It is not the same as Self although perhaps it is the most responsive level of substance which relates to the presence of observing consciousness.  So when a Yogacara Buddhist says 'everything is mind' they are saying that fundamentally there is only that citta activity in the moment.

 

In terms of the goal, immortality or realisation ... it is worth bearing in mind that the goal in Mahayana and particularly Vajrayana is complete Buddhahood and not the Arhat non-returning etc.  So there is a substantial change in emphasis from having a realisation into which you merge - to becoming a Buddha which is essentially an undying being (whether or not manifest at the physical level).  This buddha-hood can be described as threefold 'bodies' called kaya.  Loosely speaking there is a physical manifestation called the nirmana-kaya, a subtle body manifestation called the sambhoga-kaya and the pure mind of a Buddha called the dharma-kaya.  Certainly yogically and in mantra-yana most of the 'work' goes into the sambhoga-kaya subtle body.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Apech

[C T]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Removing a single proton from the nucleus of a mercury atom transforms it into gold, thus the ability to manipulate atoms at a quantum level would be all that is needed for external alchemy to become a reality. Not a car to a chair, but it would be an interesting demonstration of some sort of quantum ability. 
 

 

Alchemy in Buddhist tantra in the main is more interested in attaining the rainbow body (of light). Ref. Apech's post above. 

 

This is one of the reasons dream yoga is a core practice in most tantric traditions. To overcome physical limitations of the body, some of the practices assist the initiate to apply dream yoga in creating a mandala (some sects use the energy of sound) and simultaneously, an ethereal, visceral body of light (at the development stages during the phases of cultivating the outer tantras (kriya, charya and yoga tantras) vis a vis the path of purification initially, and later, path of transformation). When the master ascertains the readiness of the initiate, he or she is transferred culmination practices (abisheka) of inner tantras vis a vis mahayoga and anuyoga, both classed as 'paths of transformation' - this is the completion stage where signs of stability in manifest body of light gradually seeps into the physical world. The masters will be able to notice the onset of this by confirming the presence of shimmering holograms of light around the person, and later (usually years later) a more stable halo will be revealed as enveloping the upper body as the cultivated visceral body merge in subtler and subtler detail with the its physical counterpart. Liberation, Dharmakaya, Rigpa is the ultimate fruition of the culmination of Atiyoga, the ninth and final vehicle, which is the vehicle that Dzogchen places the most emphasis on. 

 

Other schools and traditions have varying approaches to this practice. I think Western occult traditions also promote a form of dream yoga. 

 

In dream yoga one is basically manipulating energies in lucid dream states that are suffused with limitless potentialities, that otherwise is not accessible by the ordinary waking mind and body. In those portals of limitless potential nothing is impossible, so the practitioner has licence to explore all sorts of possibilities and scenarios as a means to expand physical limits imposed by habitual tendencies. This is the key difference (an important one) between the Buddhist approach and others who claim to achieve results thru various natural consciousness-altering substances. 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by C T

[old3bob]

any form of mind power or knowledge that can be gained can also be lost, (or worse)   While Brahman beyond mind can not be gained or lost as such a changeable thing;  thus in an understatement so to speak, it is enough... 

[manitou]

21 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Though all individual forms and distinctions are constantly passing away, illusory, gossamer, ephemeral, intrinsically transient and returning to source; Awareness seems foundational and unifying... unchanging, undying.

 

Does Tao give rise to Awareness?  Is Awareness The One which is birthed from Tao?

Or is Awareness intrinsic to Tao?  This is the pivotal question whose answer i waffle back and forth, it is a fascinating bone to chew.  But alas, it's a conceptualization and thus, form dependent, and so... limited.  Ever the menu, never the meal.

 

The paradox of raw experiential awareness, and then the process of thinking/conceptualizing and attempting to speak and sharing it with others, is as frustrating as it is fascinating.  The connections it engenders is why i keep coming back here.  This is fertile ground for connection and so far in this life, connection is as close as I've come to a meaning for my life.

 

 

I see Awareness as the template for order, intrinsic, unchanging, and undying.  I too think about this question, does Tao give rise to Awareness?  I think Awareness is the Dao, that which underlies galaxies and the order of the universe, the default condition into which we appear and dissolve, as do universes.  I think that the Awareness gives birth to the One, the Word.  The distinction between one thing and the other.  The beginning of Genesis and the beginning of the DDJ sort of allude to this same thing.  Genesis says something like 'And in the beginning was the word, and the word was god', or something to that effect.  The DDJ says 'The Dao that can be spoken of is not the true Dao.'  So, that would be prior (to the instant manifestation) of the Word, the thing that differentiates and gives rise to the 10,000 things, within the framework of Time.  Word = Ideation.

 

It goes back to the point of self-realization happening outside the dimensions of time and space.

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by manitou

[old3bob]

and its interesting to add dreams to the discussion...for now and then we may be aware of a dream within a dream within a dream,  and if they are dreams that we seem to feel lost in then we want to find a way to wake up from them,  and so find ourselves shifting our awareness at that level from one to another to do so...

 

(and just when we thought we were back we realized we were still in another dream)

Edited June 26, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I probably should have explained that it is my own preference to use spirit instead of mind - this is because when the word mind is used in some contexts and systems they mean something much more than 'that which thinks' ... For me what is being spoken about is something like sentient energy or conscious energy - in that it has both the capacity for awareness and also action - it does or accomplishes everything.  Spirit is more a term from Western thought, Hermeticism or Christian mysticism.

 

"Buddha nature" is often described in terms of three qualities: boundless wisdom, infinite capability, and immeasurable loving-kindness and compassion.

If this is true, and Mind is equivalent to this, then I agree that it means much more than that which thinks. Since I’m a hopeless case I’d break up the above mentioned three qualities into the fully realised potential of pingala, Ida and Sushumna respectively. 
 

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

But in Sanskrit there are a number of words which would be translated as mind such as jnana, vijnana, citta and manas.  Citta is interesting because originally it was a Samkhya term for mind-substance, that is the very fine state of matter which has the capacity to take up form and then discharge it.  Like a mental substrate or medium in which thoughts appear.  It is not the same as Self although perhaps it is the most responsive level of substance which relates to the presence of observing consciousness.  So when a Yogacara Buddhist says 'everything is mind' they are saying that fundamentally there is only that citta activity in the moment.

 

In terms of the goal, immortality or realisation ... it is worth bearing in mind that the goal in Mahayana and particularly Vajrayana is complete Buddhahood and not the Arhat non-returning etc.  So there is a substantial change in emphasis from having a realisation into which you merge - to becoming a Buddha which is essentially an undying being (whether or not manifest at the physical level).  This buddha-hood can be described as threefold 'bodies' called kaya.  Loosely speaking there is a physical manifestation called the nirmana-kaya, a subtle body manifestation called the sambhoga-kaya and the pure mind of a Buddha called the dharma-kaya.  Certainly yogically and in mantra-yana most of the 'work' goes into the sambhoga-kaya subtle body.