Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[manitou]

Speaking on a layman's level, one who doesn't know about jnana, vijnana, citta, or manas, it appears to me that these are the product of the same thing.  Removal of excessive ego.  This very activity seems to produce the very thing that you are talking about.  Mind-substance as Apech describes would be the active part of the mind that manifests ideas and form?  The medium in which thoughts appear sounds right, and it wouldn't be the same thing as self, although perhaps connected.  'Self', as I see it, is a result of our conditioning, our make-up, our emotions, our memories, our dreams.  But it dwells in the place where ego is dominant.

 

The more that the egoic self is disregarded, the finer and more subtle mind becomes.  As I see the Buddha mind, it is that mind that has discarded ego, and as such has infinite range of sight, and an infinite range of motion.  There is no structure impeding the understanding, it is merely the choice of the subject to revert to the openness and 'let it happen', much like the moon door in Game of Thrones.  It actually feels like that, an willful opening of an aperture that allows Seeing.   All things are possible because ego doesn't impede the beingness.  One doesn't get angry or sad, because there is no clinging to memory or conditioning.  It is available at the drop of a hat.  One can stay there all the time, if the mindfulness is acquired, the mental discipline needed to do so.

 

There is distraction.  There is always distraction.  But there is also a pulling back from distraction, a skill at which one gets better and better the more it's practiced.  The choice is there to be entrenched in the feelings and reaction because of conditioning, or to step out of feelings because the big picture is focused upon instead.  If someone doesn't take the steps to diminish ego and conditioning, it will forever be a push/pull of emotions, no choice but to be tossed around like a stick in the ocean.

[Apech]

On 6/27/2022 at 12:00 AM, Bindi said:

 

"Buddha nature" is often described in terms of three qualities: boundless wisdom, infinite capability, and immeasurable loving-kindness and compassion.

If this is true, and Mind is equivalent to this, then I agree that it means much more than that which thinks. Since I’m a hopeless case I’d break up the above mentioned three qualities into the fully realised potential of pingala, Ida and Sushumna respectively. 
 

 

 

The way I would see it is that the channels in the subtle body are produced by the primary attributes of Mind, for instance the motivation of compassion/loving kindness by motion towards its goal, you could say motion of love within the Mind produces the central channel.  This is the unconditional activity of Mind (or what I would call Spirit).  Where this intersects the three Dan Tiens you get sexual love, emotive love and aesthetic love respectively as human motivational energies and so on.  Further condensed these motions precipitate bio-energetic and physical organs.  By alignment you end up with a 'three in one' being ... where the causal, subtle and gross aspects work together.

 

 

[C T]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

The way I would see it is that the channels in the subtle body are produced by the primary attributes of Mind, for instance the motivation of compassion/loving kindness by motion towards its goal, you could say motion of love within the Mind produces the central channel.  This is the unconditional activity of Mind (or what I would call Spirit).  Where this intersects the three Dan Tiens you get sexual love, emotive love and aesthetic love respectively as human motivational energies and so on.  Further condensed these motions precipitate bio-energetic and physical organs.  By alignment you end up with a 'three in one' being ... where the causal, subtle and gross aspects work together.

 

 

 

Hi Apech, 

 

Some clarification, please: This motion of love you mentioned, supposedly within the Mind, is this a metaphor for mind-prana? Asking because I've not heard it mention this way before. I've always assumed that the central channel manifests with our first in breath and continues to be nourished by the breath (prana). Interestingly, its believed that the central channel does not fully dissolve with the last breath for those accomplished in yoga. Its a key element necessary for traversing the bardo states and for directing one's intended rebirth destination. Non practitioners, with no knowledge of this, are reborn randomly. Mediocre practitioners like myself will also likely be randomly reborn due to a rusty pipe aka central channel 

 

As for practices related to this, I think its important to bear in mind that the winds caused to enter the central channel is not meant to remain indefinitely. Ignorance of the process of entering, remaining and dissolving can be harmful, and many have actually been harmed thru incomplete knowledge of the practice resulting in/from DIY errors. But this is not new knowledge - most practitioners here must already be aware of this by now. 

.

.

 

Upon further reflection, the process of purification of prana being enhanced by intense motivation of compassion and loving kindness makes sense when considering that in deep sleep, Mind-prana naturally gathers in the heart centre, the seat of compassion. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by C T

[old3bob]

"in the world but not of it"  A fine saying that applies to certain levels of folks, btw. there are those that are hardly even in the world besides not being of it...those folks are in monasteries, temples, meditation caves or other isolated places with very little or in some cases no interaction with the world and its concerns.  I think most of us here are householders and have various concerns in the world to deal with, thus are we not overshooting with talk of or making forays into the practices of renunciates, monks, nuns, sannyasin's, secluded masters, etc... when such is none of our dharmic business as householders and thus is counter to our rightful level of Dharmic practices ?

[manitou]

24 minutes ago, old3bob said:

"in the world but not of it"  A fine saying that applies to certain levels of folks, btw. there are those that are hardly even in the world besides not being of it...those folks are in monasteries, temples, meditation caves or other isolated places with very little or in some cases no interaction with the world and its concerns.  I think most of us here are householders and have various concerns in the world to deal with, thus are we not overshooting with talk of or making forays into the practices of renunciates, monks, nuns, sannyasin's, secluded masters, etc... when such is none of our dharmic business as householders and thus is counter to our rightful level of Dharmic practices ?

 

 

I don't think householders are precluded from this state of being.  You don't have to physically move to a cave to be beyond the cares of the world.  It's a state of beingness that includes all things right here, right now.  It's the non-dual way of seeing things that we've been going on about for 80 pages.

 

One possible door for entry is to think about money.  What is money?  What does it represent?  It's nothing more than stuck energy.  Takes energy to make it, takes energy to spend it - but while it's there in your wallet, it's stuck.  It seems to be so counterintuitive, to look at money this way.  I realize we need it for existence.  But when it's treated more like the fluid thing that it is, it comes and goes with a flow that is undeniable, once initiated.  It takes a leap of faith to be generous when we are needy and lack much money - but this is the very time to get it cycling.  When you're bux up is also a good time to get it cycling.

 

It's a method that works for me, just one way to get out of the grasp of the physical appearances.  Another way is to look for your part in every single thing that happens to you, not shifting blame for anything, asking yourself why you manifested this condition?  What is your exact part in this?   This takes some ego diminishment, which is a good thing, if we are totally honest with ourselves.  The less the ego interferes with our daily activities, the more we can live in a monastery of our own making, right where we stand.

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by manitou

[old3bob]

17 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

 

I don't think householders are precluded from this state of being.  You don't have to physically move to a cave to be beyond the cares of the world.  It's a state of beingness that includes all things right here, right now.  It's the non-dual way of seeing things that we've been going on about for 80 pages.

 

One possible door for entry is to think about money.  What is money?  What does it represent?  It's nothing more than stuck energy.  Takes energy to make it, takes energy to spend it - but while it's there in your wallet, it's stuck.  It seems to be so counterintuitive, to look at money this way.  I realize we need it for existence.  But when it's treated more like the fluid thing that it is, it comes and goes with a flow that is undeniable, once initiated.  It takes a leap of faith to be generous when we are needy and lack much money - but this is the very time to get it cycling.  When you're bux up is also a good time to get it cycling.

 

It's a method that works for me, just one way to get out of the grasp of the physical appearances.  Another way is to look for your part in every single thing that happens to you, not shifting blame for anything, asking yourself why you manifested this condition?  What is your exact part in this?   This takes some ego diminishment, which is a good thing, if we are totally honest with ourselves.  The less the ego interferes with our daily activities, the more we can live in a monastery of our own making, right where we stand.

 

 

What I mean is that it is not possible to be good parents and also go off to the Himalayas' or a monastery and meditate or do advanced practices for years and thus neglect your duty as a parent.  Many or most of the quotes shared here are from monks, nuns, masters, Lama's, etc. in some kind of monastery or ashram type of setting.  They normally do not have spouses, children, or private homes and worldly business to take care of, and it would not be good for either to try and do both at the same time. 

Edited June 29, 2022 by old3bob

[C T]

17 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

What I mean is that it is not possible to be good parents and also go off to the Himalayas' or a monastery and meditate or do advanced practices for years and thus neglect your duty as a parent.  Many or most of the quotes shared here are from monks, nuns, masters, Lama's, etc. in some kind of monastery or ashram type of setting.  They normally do not have spouses, children, or private homes and worldly business to take care of, and it would not be good for either to try and do both at the same time. 

 

You're right, imo its bonkers to neglect/forsake familial responsibilities under most circumstances and head off for the hills, metaphorically speaking. Generally though, householder phase (in Hinduism even, which you're prob familiar with.... the 2nd Ashrama?) is only the second stage in the full life of a person, from the angle of spiritual cultivation. Third Ashrama being the Hermit stage, followed finally by the stage of the sannyasa, the fourth Ashrama. There ought to be an observance of a sequential process to the integration of advanced practices - its not a path that one should adopt impulsively, and most mature practitioners, I believe, are well aware of this. Hopefully.

 

In the tradition I follow, householders have options of doing short term retreats ranging from one month, to three months, to one year, and then three years. Its possible to do a few one-month or three-month retreats too if time is a constraining factor, before advancing further. These longer retreats are predicated on the assumption that the retreatant will have integrated or maybe even embodied the meaning of renunciation by then. 

[old3bob]

24 minutes ago, C T said:

 

You're right, imo its bonkers to neglect/forsake familial responsibilities under most circumstances and head off for the hills, metaphorically speaking. Generally though, householder phase (in Hinduism even, which you're prob familiar with.... the 2nd Ashrama?) is only the second stage in the full life of a person, from the angle of spiritual cultivation. Third Ashrama being the Hermit stage, followed finally by the stage of the sannyasa, the fourth Ashrama. There ought to be an observance of a sequential process to the integration of advanced practices - its not a path that one should adopt impulsively, and most mature practitioners, I believe, are well aware of this. Hopefully.

 

In the tradition I follow, householders have options of doing short term retreats ranging from one month, to three months, to one year, and then three years. Its possible to do a few one-month or three-month retreats too if time is a constraining factor, before advancing further. These longer retreats are predicated on the assumption that the retreatant will have integrated or maybe even embodied the meaning of renunciation by then. 

 

Yes, I'm familiar with Hindu based teachings about the stages that you mention, and agree about a doable process for them taking place;  and most of their schools have been doing so for a very long time (in some cases for thousands of years)  and then we have some co-opting going on in the "west" where people more or less by-pass time proven and safety proven processes and jump right into advanced methods (via books or their local yoga studio)  doing things renunciates would normally practice under the direct guidance of a true guru, yet many  are householders in the world and are not under such guidance.  (along with transcendental type concepts that get way ahead of the game as related to state of being for householders)

Edited June 29, 2022 by old3bob

[Apech]

4 hours ago, C T said:

 

Hi Apech, 

 

Some clarification, please: This motion of love you mentioned, supposedly within the Mind, is this a metaphor for mind-prana? Asking because I've not heard it mention this way before. I've always assumed that the central channel manifests with our first in breath and continues to be nourished by the breath (prana). Interestingly, its believed that the central channel does not fully dissolve with the last breath for those accomplished in yoga. Its a key element necessary for traversing the bardo states and for directing one's intended rebirth destination. Non practitioners, with no knowledge of this, are reborn randomly. Mediocre practitioners like myself will also likely be randomly reborn due to a rusty pipe aka central channel 

 

As for practices related to this, I think its important to bear in mind that the winds caused to enter the central channel is not meant to remain indefinitely. Ignorance of the process of entering, remaining and dissolving can be harmful, and many have actually been harmed thru incomplete knowledge of the practice resulting in/from DIY errors. But this is not new knowledge - most practitioners here must already be aware of this by now. 

.

.

 

Upon further reflection, the process of purification of prana being enhanced by intense motivation of compassion and loving kindness makes sense when considering that in deep sleep, Mind-prana naturally gathers in the heart centre, the seat of compassion. 

 

 

Hi CT,

 

Firstly a disclaimer that everything I say is just my thoughts on the matter - so likely to be either wrong or slightly wrong.

 

Mind-prana by which I believe you mean the citta-prana union would be something like what I would call sentient energy.  I think you could say two things about this, one would be its desire for union with itself - which could be called love - and the other is its will to develop being expressed in ever and ever more miraculous ways - which could be called love.  You could say bodhicitta instead and hence all practice based around aspiration, prayer, devotion and so on is this love.  That's how I would see it.

 

I think that in terms of the spiritual biology of the thing, the central channel appears in proto form when male and female energies combine (red and white) - or physically at conception - or immediately afterwards.  Henceforth we become divided beings seeking union - having it to a certain extent preserved in utero but then split more at birth.

 

I think that as in sadhana practice completion stage dissolving back into pristine emptiness is part of the path/practice - but that this is a way to experience emptiness so as to understand the basis.  The true completion is when this emptiness and appearance are united and become 'not-two' and this is why yogic techniques and what I would call alchemy are necessary for full completion and not just the experience of space-like mind.

 

 

[C T]

Just now, old3bob said:

 

Yes, I'm familiar with Hindu based teachings about the stages that you mention, and agree about a doable process for them taking place;  and most of their schools have been doing so for a very long time (in some cases for thousands of years)  and then we have some co-opting going on in the "west" where people more or less by-pass time proven and safely proven processes and jump right into advanced methods (via books or their local yoga studio)  doing things renunciates would normally practice under the direct guidance of a true guru, yet many  are householders in the world and are not under such guidance.

 

Yeah, point noted and taken. The reason for the picking up of pace, not only for advanced practices, but most every other aspect of life too, is a sign of the times. Instantaneous information flow is largely the culprit. When there's a global shift like that, its hard not to be affected even if one knows better and have taken measures to extract oneself away from the main shift and out onto the peripherals, supposedly to cultivate a saner, more conducive existence. Although when considering that the eye of the land hurricane is the calmest point, one begins to wonder.  

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

Many or most of the quotes shared here are from monks, nuns, masters, Lama's, etc. in some kind of monastery or ashram type of setting.  

 

I'm sure monastic life is helpful to many, but judging from the quality of some of the householder posts in this thread I think great progress can be made while earning a living, raising children, traveling the world, or merely bumming about.  

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I'm sure monastic life is helpful to many, but judging from the quality of some of the householder posts in this thread I think great progress can be made while earning a living, raising children, traveling the world, or merely bumming about.  

 

several of those householders you've mentioned are members of schools and have teachers which they have mentioned, so that is one of the stages...(or they had such at one time or another)

Edited June 29, 2022 by old3bob

[silent thunder]

On 6/26/2022 at 10:46 AM, manitou said:

 

 

I see Awareness as the template for order, intrinsic, unchanging, and undying.  I too think about this question, does Tao give rise to Awareness?  I think Awareness is the Dao, that which underlies galaxies and the order of the universe, the default condition into which we appear and dissolve, as do universes.  I think that the Awareness gives birth to the One, the Word.  The distinction between one thing and the other.  The beginning of Genesis and the beginning of the DDJ sort of allude to this same thing.  Genesis says something like 'And in the beginning was the word, and the word was god', or something to that effect.  The DDJ says 'The Dao that can be spoken of is not the true Dao.'  So, that would be prior (to the instant manifestation) of the Word, the thing that differentiates and gives rise to the 10,000 things, within the framework of Time.  Word = Ideation.

 

It goes back to the point of self-realization happening outside the dimensions of time and space.

Much resonance and deep gratitude.  Thank you for sharing this.

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, Apech said:

 

The way I would see it is that the channels in the subtle body are produced by the primary attributes of Mind, for instance the motivation of compassion/loving kindness by motion towards its goal, you could say motion of love within the Mind produces the central channel.  This is the unconditional activity of Mind (or what I would call Spirit).  Where this intersects the three Dan Tiens you get sexual love, emotive love and aesthetic love respectively as human motivational energies and so on.  Further condensed these motions precipitate bio-energetic and physical organs.  By alignment you end up with a 'three in one' being ... where the causal, subtle and gross aspects work together.

 

 

I like what you are saying about sexual love, emotive love and aesthetic love being associated with the central channel where it intersects with the dantians, though I’m not quite sure what you mean by ‘aesthetic’ love exactly. 
 

I think there is some sort of subtle ‘seed’ that has to travel from the LDT up to the MDT and then the UDT that in a sense has to be fully realised and transformed in each of these centres, and this ever broadening of ‘love’ is a fundamental part of the journey. 
 

edit to add: Christianity has ‘Agape’ as the highest love, “the love that is of and from God, whose very nature is love itself…it is His nature to love and He must be true to His nature.”

Edited June 29, 2022 by Bindi

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

I like what you are saying about sexual love, emotive love and aesthetic love being associated with the central channel where it intersects with the dantians, though I’m not quite sure what you mean by ‘aesthetic’ love exactly. 
 

I think there is some sort of subtle ‘seed’ that has to travel from the LDT up to the MDT and then the UDT that in a sense has to be fully realised and transformed in each of these centres, and this ever broadening of ‘love’ is a fundamental part of the journey. 
 

edit to add: Christianity has ‘Agape’ as the highest love, “the love that is of and from God, whose very nature is love itself…it is His nature to love and He must be true to His nature.”

by aesthetic love I meant seeing beauty and being inspired by it (sometimes this beauty may be in the mundane or a facet of nature)

[dawn90]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CdJzqYlJYcT/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

 

 

[dawn90]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

I think there is some sort of subtle ‘seed’ that has to travel from the LDT up to the MDT and then the UDT that in a sense has to be fully realised and transformed in each of these centres, and this ever broadening of ‘love’ is a fundamental part of the journey. 

 

it's like the fundamental tree needs to be drawn - it's beautiful.

Edited June 30, 2022 by dawn90

[manitou]

On 6/25/2022 at 11:02 PM, Mark Foote said:

Self-awareness has a location, but the location is unrestricted, can move as though in open space (as when falling asleep, "sleeping in its nest").  The stretch can be localized in the vicinity of self-awareness, or the stretch can be generalized, as the lack of restriction on the location of self-awareness is realized.  

 

 

For some reason this reminds me of quantum physics.  I know only as much as The Tao of Physics taught me.  Speaking of the lack of restriction, this reminds me that the 'wave' phenomenon of the 'particle or wave' dichotemy - the wave isn't a wave of energy, as one might think.  It's a wave of probability.  This would explain the unrestrictive nature of self-awareness - the vast sensation one feels in the belly or the heart when it's in a place of consciousness and balance.  It feels absolutely unrestrained, unbounded by anything.  It's the thing that doesn't age or doesn't move.  It doesn't care where in the world you are, it is always Home, here now.  It is more Home than anything else I've ever felt.  I have no qualms about traveling anymore.  I just went to Iceland and now I want to go to Paris.  But it doesn't care where I am; it is so very reliable. 

 

Yes, Mark, I think that says it perfectly, "the lack of restriction on the location of self-awareness".  It rings a big brass gong for me 

 

[Mark Foote]

18 hours ago, manitou said:

 

I have no qualms about traveling anymore.  I just went to Iceland and now I want to go to Paris.  But it doesn't care where I am; it is so very reliable. 

 

Yes, Mark, I think that says it perfectly, "the lack of restriction on the location of self-awareness".  It rings a big brass gong for me 

 

 

Bong.  Thanks, manitou--hope you get to Paris, I've never been there.

When I sit, I start out having to relax and calm down, to let go of my mind, and hopefully to find my impermanence and some equanimity toward a little bit of pain around the edges.   If I do drop into where I am now, I experience movement in the location of self-awareness, but I can double-down on "free to move through the whole body and as though in open space".  Surrender.

How much can I transition to action initiated in the stretch of ligaments, and stop moving myself around, I wonder lately.  A lot to learn, between the pelvis and the spine, between the lower spine and the thoracic spine, and between the neck and the head.
 

My late teacher Wu Tsu said, “With this turtle-nosed snake, you must have the ability not to get your hands or legs bitten. Hold him tight by the back of the neck with one quick grab. Then you can join hands and walk along with me.”

 

(Yuanwu, "The Blue Cliff Record"; trans. Cleary Cleary, pg 144)

 

 

I'm bound to be bitten by Wu Tsu, if I take his advice to mean there's something I should do.  It's about realizing a cessation of "doing", but I think I might run into him, in the stretch of ligaments.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Mark Foote

[manitou]

11 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Bong. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Thanks, manitou--hope you get to Paris, I've never been there

 

I want to go and wear a beret and draw nekkid people on the left bank.

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

I want to go and wear a beret and draw nekkid people on the left bank.

 

 

We will all be with you, at least in spirit!

[natural]

2 hours ago, manitou said:

 

 

 

I want to go and wear a beret and draw nekkid people on the left bank.

 

Thats a wise choice, as there be no nekkid peeps on the right bank, too conservative lol!

[liminal_luke]

37 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

We will all be with you, at least in spirit!

 

Some will accompany manitou in spirit, others will model.

[manitou]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Some will accompany manitou in spirit, others will model.

 

 

Too dual.  We all need to be there.

[old3bob]

 

Jeff Foxworthy said he'd like to go also....but not Larry.

and since we got off topic a bit how about a laugh?

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by old3bob