Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[C T]

10 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I'm all for relaxing.

 

 

That article was checked for accuracy, by a pediatrician.

 

Not doubting the accuracy of said article, merely the veracity of Mr Feldenkrais's assertion wrt the idiotic nature of instructions aimed at breath work. He seems to have overlooked the value somewhat, perhaps not realising the majority could well enjoy better health simply by creating awareness around breath regulation, enough just to adopt simple techniques and make these habitual. For example, noticing how stress is exacerbated into a loop by habitual shallow breathing (with the lungs) as opposed to the more natural, stress-busting, karma-releasing way of abdominal breathing. As with basic mindfulness too, actually.

 

Given his reputation I thought maybe he was misquoted saying that breath work destroys breathing. Sounds quite extreme, imo. Which then prompted the consideration of all the various fields of mundane endeavour that require extraordinary approaches towards manipulating the breath as a primary tool for developing higher levels of endurance, focus, pace, and for overall performance development. But correct mastery cannot be emphasized enough, more so viewed in light of using pranayama as a primary step in the development of a subtle energetic field of being.

 

Despite it all, the risk of harm is ever present, and a stark reminder jolted me yesterday when I got news that a friend, a veteran triathlete who's fully dedicated to the sports, who trains daily, passed away on Sunday in the midst of a competition. He started to falter during the swim leg - developed increasing breathing difficulty leading to loss of stamina, then went downhill quickly from there. Even timely intervention from medics at the scene, and later at the hospital, did nothing to keep him alive. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by C T

[old3bob]

From Gibran:

 

"....That which seems most feeble and bewildered in you is the strongest and most determined.

Is it not your breath that has erected and hardened the structure of your bones?

And is it not a dream which none of you remember having dreamt, that builded your city and fashioned all there is in it?

Could you but see the tides of that breath you would cease to see all else,

And if you could hear the whispering of the dream you would hear no other sound.

But you do not see, nor do you hear, and it is well.

The veil that clouds your eyes shall be lifted by the hands that wove it,

And the clay that fills your ears shall be pierced by those fingers that kneaded it. And you shall see.

And you shall hear.

Yet you shall not deplore having known blindness, nor regret having been deaf.

For in that day you shall know the hidden purposes in all things,...."

 

[Bindi]

20 minutes ago, old3bob said:

From Gibran:

 

"....That which seems most feeble and bewildered in you is the strongest and most determined.

Is it not your breath that has erected and hardened the structure of your bones?

And is it not a dream which none of you remember having dreamt, that builded your city and fashioned all there is in it?

Could you but see the tides of that breath you would cease to see all else,

And if you could hear the whispering of the dream you would hear no other sound.

But you do not see, nor do you hear, and it is well.

The veil that clouds your eyes shall be lifted by the hands that wove it,

And the clay that fills your ears shall be pierced by those fingers that kneaded it. And you shall see.

And you shall hear.

Yet you shall not deplore having known blindness, nor regret having been deaf.

For in that day you shall know the hidden purposes in all things,...."

 

Very nice 3bob, it makes me think I read Gibran far too long ago, when I knew hardly anything. “If you could hear the whispering of the dream” reminds me of one of my favourite lines from one of my favourite texts, “When the green immortal spirit passes over and communicates with me, there is a distant echo.” There’s something that I do want to hear and see, and it’s not emptiness, and it’s not a void, and it’s not even primordial space, its more akin to spirit pointing to the actualising of spirit within my body. 

[old3bob]

27 minutes ago, Bindi said:

Very nice 3bob, it makes me think I read Gibran far too long ago, when I knew hardly anything. “If you could hear the whispering of the dream” reminds me of one of my favourite lines from one of my favourite texts, “When the green immortal spirit passes over and communicates with me, there is a distant echo.” There’s something that I do want to hear and see, and it’s not emptiness, and it’s not a void, and it’s not even primordial space, its more akin to spirit pointing to the actualising of spirit within my body. 

 

Beautifully expressed Bindi.

 

Her never ending yet always new song is so subtle as she touches us while being just out of reach...

[dwai]

 

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

That's what's fascinating about Gautama's description of his attainment of a cessation of "perceiving and feeling"--true that there were no cankers (no desire for sense-pleasures, no becoming, no ignorance), but:  "only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself"--that doesn't sound so blissful!  Nor is it a "realization of ultimate reality"--it's just what is, when habit and will cease.  Not different from everyday reality, just without the grasping.

I think this is another misunderstanding - in the dharmic context,  “bliss” means cessation of craving/aversion towards pain and pleasure.  

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Ok, I'll admit Wikipedia is not necessarily the most accurate description...

Where do your actions come from, when "the channels and chakras" are cleared of obscurations?  When you say techniques that intentionally alter the movement of breath can be very effective tools, are you speaking of actions or realizations?

 

[manitou]

10 hours ago, steve said:

In Bön dzogchen language, the natural state, the unspeakable state.

 

Both

The techniques themselves are actions performed by a practitioner. When the practitioner is no longer present, no longer engaged, there is realization. At this point there is no need for techniques as the obscurations are gone.

 

 

That could be said of any structured path at all 

[Apech]

10 hours ago, steve said:

In Bön dzogchen language, the natural state, the unspeakable state.

 

Both

The techniques themselves are actions performed by a practitioner. When the practitioner is no longer present, no longer engaged, there is realization. At this point there is no need for techniques as the obscurations are gone.

 

I thought California was the unspeakable state ... or was it Florida?

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I thought California was the unspeakable state ... or was it Florida?

 

Maryland

[doc benway]

21 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I thought California was the unspeakable state ... or was it Florida?

Texas

[natural]

17 minutes ago, steve said:

Texas

 

Are you sure you want to mess with Texas?

Oh, I guess your safe, after all Ted Cruz is either enroute to or from Cancun.

Edited July 5, 2022 by natural

[Apech]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Maryland

 

 

[natural]

6 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

 

Close but no cigar!

[liminal_luke]

If you can't speak a state, try to sing it.

Spoiler

Carolina In My Mind - James Taylor - Lyrics / HD - YouTube

 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

 

I think this is another misunderstanding - in the dharmic context,  “bliss” means cessation of craving/aversion towards pain and pleasure.  

 

 

Can you quote me a source on that, dwai?

 

 

[Mark Foote]

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Can you quote me a source on that, dwai?

 

 

There is no source that defines what ananda means in English, because ananda is an untranslatable word. It is varyingly translated into English as “happiness, joy, bliss” etc. In the vedantic tradition, another term used in place of ananda is purnam (completeness or fullness). We can go by that to understand what is implied - what does one feel when there is “completeness” in their life? Is it bliss? Joy? I think contentment is more apropos. 

[Mark Foote]

23 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

There is no source that defines what ananda means in English, because ananda is an untranslatable word. It is varyingly translated into English as “happiness, joy, bliss” etc. In the vedantic tradition, another term used in place of ananda is purnam (completeness or fullness). We can go by that to understand what is implied - what does one feel when there is “completeness” in their life? Is it bliss? Joy? I think contentment is more apropos. 

 

 

 

[Bindi]

Contentment is a poor substitute for bliss…
 

Ruined in the tavern of love we can taste the intoxicating wine of His presence. This is when the bliss begins. At the beginning it may come as a gentle lover’s foreplay, like butterfly wings at the edge of the heart, but in this gentle touch the whole of oneself is saturated with love, a love that runs through the body and soul, in which nothing is excluded. Then one is really reborn, reborn in love, in the deep knowing of one’s true nature and the love that is present in oneself and in everything.

Later the states of bliss deepen and intensify, become almost painful and one wonders how the body can bear it, and yet it continues, sometimes for hours. Sweetness, intoxication, drunkenness, these are the words the Sufi uses to describe such states: the ecstasy of love:

the sugar sack is ripped spilling sugar everywhere

 

I am so ruined with love that beggar children stone me in the alleys

 

I am so mad with love that madmen say “Be still!” ⁽⁵⁾

What is the nature of this bliss? In the moments of intoxication one does not know, one does not care, there is no mind, no self, just the currents of love that have taken one away from everything one knows into a different world, a world without difficulties or conflict, in which everything is alive with love. And in these states the heart can grow and expand, until the heart is everything, the call of every bird, the taste of every tear. 
 

https://goldensufi.org/divine-intoxication-rumi/

[doc benway]

It’s funny to discuss these experiences as if there is a right or wrong answer. There are as many experiences of bliss, or contentment for that matter, as there are experiencers.

[dwai]

23 minutes ago, steve said:

It’s funny to discuss these experiences as if there is a right or wrong answer. There are as many experiences of bliss, or contentment for that matter, as there are experiencers.

I look at it from the perspective of “experience”. Bliss, ecstasy etc are experiences. I don’t think of contentment as an experience, but more a psychological state of fulfillment. If there is no clinging or aversion, everything is as is - simply happening.
 

I think people perhaps over-index on the bliss/ecstasy angle and then might come out of spiritual practice feeling disappointed after a certain period of time (especially after 10 or more years dedicated to said practice). This expectation, set by a seemingly innocuous word “bliss” becomes the very thing that acts as the saboteur to the success of the practice. In fact, I’ve actually heard/read many people who had the realization, state that they spent 20-30 years chasing bliss and some phantom state of experience (which they might even have had experienced) and then felt that since it was not permanent, that meant their practice was not correct/some flaw in the system they followed. And then, when they gave up their seeking (to chase it) and surrendered to the present moment, the “truth” presented itself. So also, everything happens exactly as they are meant to happen - depending on the individual’s conditioning/karma. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by dwai

[old3bob]

(to borrow that word happening ;-)

freedom happening, freedom from fear, doubt, division, etc..

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

(to borrow that word happening ;-)

freedom happening, freedom from fear, doubt, division, etc..

 

 

Gautama's teaching:

 

 

And what… is the ceasing of action? That ceasing of action by body, speech, and mind, by which one contacts freedom,–that is called ‘the ceasing of action’.

 

(SN IV 145, Pali Text Society IV pg 85)

 

 

 … those who are novices, not long gone forth (from home), late-comers into this Norm and Discipline,–such… should be roused and admonished for, and established in, the cultivation of the four stations of mindfulness. Of what four and how? (Ye should say this:)

 

‘Come ye, friends, do ye abide in body contemplating body (as transient), ardent, composed and one-pointed(1), of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, for insight into body as it really is.

 

In feelings do ye abide contemplating feelings (as transient), ardent, …for insight into feelings as they really are.

 

In mind do ye abide contemplating mind (as transient), ardent, …for insight into mind as it really is.

 

In mind-states do ye abide contemplating mind states (as transient), ardent, composed, one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, for insight into mind-states as they really are.’

 

[Those] who are imperfect, who have not attained their goal, who abide aspiring for the peace from bondage unsurpassed,–they also abide in body contemplating body (as transient), ardent, composed, one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, for the comprehension of body… So also do they abide … for the comprehension of feelings, of mind, and of mind-states.

 

[Those] who are Arahants. destroyers of the [cankers], who have lived the life, done what was to be done, who have removed the burden, who have won their highest good, who have utterly destroyed the fetters of becoming, who by perfect knowledge have become free,–they also abide in body contemplating body (as transient), ardent, composed, one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, with respect to body being released.

 

So also in feelings, they are released from feelings… and in mind, they are released.

 

In mind-states they abide contemplating mind-states (as transient), ardent, composed, one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, in respect of mind-states they are released.

 

(1) Ekodi-bhuta.  khanika-samadhina ekagga-bhuta samahita, 'by a momentary concentration become one-pointed and tranquillized.' from Sarattappakasini, Buddhaghosa's commentary on Samyutta Nikaya.

 

(SN V 144, Vol V pg 123-124)

 

 

Hadn't seen that footnote before--a momentary thing, to drop into the singularity of self-awareness, and carry on.  Zen, they just go with that, but the rhythm of the four fields is an interesting study IMHO.

Freedom, the mark of the cessation of action.

 

 

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, steve said:

It’s funny to discuss these experiences as if there is a right or wrong answer. There are as many experiences of bliss, or contentment for that matter, as there are experiencers.

Can there also be as many translations of any given word, so that it can come to reflect whatever one personally feels and knows? There actually are clear definitions of ananda - 

Ananda Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

ananda [ ah-n uhn-d uh ] noun Hinduism. perfect bliss. Compare Sat-cit-ananda. Origin of ananda From the Sanskrit prefix ānanda- joy, happiness 

Ananda refers to the deeper and timeless dimension of happiness, not just a higher degree of the joys that we normally experience in life.

To infer that it means anything else is misleading. Bliss may not be your aim or dwai’s, but bliss exists nonetheless for some who have discovered this within themselves as a perfect and permanent experience. 

 

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

I look at it from the perspective of “experience”. Bliss, ecstasy etc are experiences. I don’t think of contentment as an experience, but more a psychological state of fulfillment. If there is no clinging or aversion, everything is as is - simply happening.
 

I think people perhaps over-index on the bliss/ecstasy angle and then might come out of spiritual practice feeling disappointed after a certain period of time (especially after 10 or more years dedicated to said practice). This expectation, set by a seemingly innocuous word “bliss” becomes the very thing that acts as the saboteur to the success of the practice. In fact, I’ve actually heard/read many people who had the realization, state that they spent 20-30 years chasing bliss and some phantom state of experience (which they might even have had experienced) and then felt that since it was not permanent, that meant their practice was not correct/some flaw in the system they followed.
 

 

Bliss isn’t the problem, the system that they followed is the problem. On the other hand some Sufi’s know about bliss, some Christians know about bliss, and maybe some tantrics, though their systems are highly likely to be flawed as well and probably not worth following. Tell a Sufi to stop seeking God and I reckon they’d run you out of town. 

 

6 hours ago, dwai said:

And then, when they gave up their seeking (to chase it) and surrendered to the present moment, the “truth” presented itself. So also, everything happens exactly as they are meant to happen - depending on the individual’s conditioning/karma. 

 

[C T]

It can only be acknowledged as an experience in hindsight, and even that, its conceptualised within a very tiny spectrum of associated memories that seemingly resembles joy, equanimity, abiding peace, etc - these recollections are merely a facsimile. During the actual unfolding moments, the experiencer dissolves within the bliss itself, and what that entails is beyond description. Attempts at describing the flowering and overflowing of such ecstatic moments can never fully do justice. But this is only one aspect of Ananda - an outer manifestation, also a level that entraps many. Me included. 

 

There are deeper layers to it, but is it even worth mentioning since there are so many differing views on the subject.