Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

Can there also be as many translations of any given word, so that it can come to reflect whatever one personally feels and knows?

Yes

Translations are limited by vocabulary but understanding of meaning is unique and personal and as varied as human minds.

 

Quote

To infer that it means anything else is misleading. Bliss may not be your aim or dwai’s, but bliss exists nonetheless for some who have discovered this within themselves as a perfect and permanent experience. 

When you are able to experience my experience of bliss, or contentment, I will agree with you that there is an objective thing called bliss or contentment that is independent of the one describing it. 

 

PS If it’s not already clear, I do not think contentment is any better than bliss as a label to point at whatever it is we are trying to indicate

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Bliss isn’t the problem, the system that they followed is the problem. On the other hand some Sufi’s know about bliss, some Christians know about bliss, and maybe some tantrics, though their systems are highly likely to be flawed as well and probably not worth following. Tell a Sufi to stop seeking God and I reckon they’d run you out of town. 

 

 

 

I wonder if this is something to do with the duality of external vs. internal.  Bliss as a thing is external - you seek it.  So there is a definite you seeking a definite it, perhaps.  Bliss as just the feeling of being free (joy being a better word perhaps) is internal - it isn't sought after it just is.  If free means that you can, without inhibition or obstruction, assimilate any situation which arises and also respond to it, then this freedom would feel entirely without struggle or effort, save the necessary application of energy to whatever is needed in the moment.

 

A system of practice is an effort to fix the way to a set of procedures or steps to be followed.  In early training this is probably helpful.  But at higher 'levels' any system has to be set aside or at least seen in perspective.  I think it's ok to say 'I am a tantric buddhist' or whatever - until being so starts to blind you to say what @steve likes to call the unspeakable state.

 

Just to clarify on the breathing thing we were discussing.  I don't ever practice forced breath techniques because they are external.  However when I practice with breath in a natural way, where my mind encounters certain energy nodes (such as the solar plexus or throat for instance) the breathing changes.  I experience for instance a 'spongy' presence of the node (chakra or wotnot) which can be squeezed ... and as this happens naturally breath rhythm and also holding of breath will occur without any conscious effort to do so.  It is these things that externally learned breathing practices try to emulate (unnecessarily in my belief).

 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Apech

[Bindi]

27 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I wonder if this is something to do with the duality of external vs. internal.  Bliss as a thing is external - you seek it.  So there is a definite you seeking a definite it, perhaps.  Bliss as just the feeling of being free (joy being a better word perhaps) is internal - it isn't sought after it just is.  If free means that you can, without inhibition or obstruction, assimilate any situation which arises and also respond to it, then this freedom would feel entirely without struggle or effort, save the necessary application of energy to whatever is needed in the moment.

 

A system of practice is an effort to fix the way to a set of procedures or steps to be followed.  In early training this is probably helpful.  But at higher 'levels' any system has to be set aside or at least seen in perspective. 
 

 

What I have noticed in a general sense is that both committed Christians and Sufis seem to accept pain and suffering, I see this as tilling the ground in which bliss may develop, it also may not. I see these certain Christians and Sufis as seeking ‘God’ anyway, not bliss, bliss is more just a byproduct. 
 

My own personal view would be that bliss is related to ‘earth’ and ‘heaven’ energies converging in the heart, nothing to do with being free. Energies are freed to flow, they just do their thing, and as a consequence the heart can start to develop, and it feels blissful because it is being filled with the energies that it has been starved of, but which are its birthright. 

 

27 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I think it's ok to say 'I am a tantric buddhist' or whatever - until being so starts to blind you to say what @steve likes to call the unspeakable state.

 

Just to clarify on the breathing thing we were discussing.  I don't ever practice forced breath techniques because they are external.  However when I practice with breath in a natural way, where my mind encounters certain energy nodes (such as the solar plexus or throat for instance) the breathing changes.  I experience for instance a 'spongy' presence of the node (chakra or wotnot) which can be squeezed ... and as this happens naturally breath rhythm and also holding of breath will occur without any conscious effort to do so.  It is these things that externally learned breathing practices try to emulate (unnecessarily in my belief).

 

 

 

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Bliss isn’t the problem, the system that they followed is the problem. On the other hand some Sufi’s know about bliss, some Christians know about bliss, and maybe some tantrics, though their systems are highly likely to be flawed as well and probably not worth following. Tell a Sufi to stop seeking God and I reckon they’d run you out of town. 

 

 

If this bliss is something that had a beginning, it will end. I’m saying this from personal experience. 
 

The problem with an experienced bliss is that the mind-body adapts and requires more and more over time to recreate the same effect. In effect, it is no different from any substance that might cause similar effects. 
 

Though it might not be glamorous at all, perfect contentment imho is better than “bliss”. Think about the implications of what contentment is - nothing is craved or shunned -  that IS peace. 

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

… bliss is related to ‘earth’ and ‘heaven’ energies converging in the heart … Energies are freed to flow, they just do their thing, and as a consequence the heart can start to develop, and it feels blissful because it is being filled with the energies that it has been starved of, but which are its birthright. 

Exactly. That’s how I experience it too. 
 

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Cobie

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

What I have noticed in a general sense is that both committed Christians and Sufis seem to accept pain and suffering, I see this as tilling the ground in which bliss may develop, it also may not. I see these certain Christians and Sufis as seeking ‘God’ anyway, not bliss, bliss is more just a byproduct. 
 

My own personal view would be that bliss is related to ‘earth’ and ‘heaven’ energies converging in the heart, nothing to do with being free. Energies are freed to flow, they just do their thing, and as a consequence the heart can start to develop, and it feels blissful because it is being filled with the energies that it has been starved of, but which are its birthright. 

 

 

 

What are heaven and earth energies?

[old3bob]

the recent back and forth reminds me of:

 

“That is full, this is full,

From that fullness comes this fullness,

If you take away this fullness from that fullness,

Only fullness remains”

 

Invocatory verse of Isha Upanishad

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

Ananda Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com

ananda [ ah-n uhn-d uh ] noun Hinduism. perfect bliss. Compare Sat-cit-ananda. Origin of ananda From the Sanskrit prefix ānanda- joy, happiness 

Ananda refers to the deeper and timeless dimension of happiness, not just a higher degree of the joys that we normally experience in life.

 

 

 

Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus: ‘This [the first meditative state] is the highest happiness and joy that creatures experience’–this I cannot allow on [their] part. What is the reason for this? There is, Ananda, another happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. And what, Ananda, is this other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, [an individual], by allaying initial and discursive thought, [their] mind inwardly tranquillised and fixed on one point, enters and abides in the second meditation which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration, and is rapturous and joyful. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and joyful than that happiness.

 

Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus… And what, Ananda, is this other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, [an individual], by the fading out of rapture, abides with equanimity, attentive and clearly conscious, and [they] experience in [their] person that happiness of which the [noble ones] say: ‘Joyful lives [the one] who has equanimity and is mindful’. And entering on the third meditation [they] abide in it. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness.

 

Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus… And what, Ananda is the other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, [an individual], by getting rid of happiness and by getting rid of anguish, by the going down of [their] former pleasures and sorrows, enters and abides in the fourth meditation which has neither anguish nor happiness, and which is entirely purified by equanimity and mindfulness. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness.

 

Whoever, Ananda, should speak thus: ‘This [the fourth meditative state] is the highest happiness and joy that creatures experience’-this I cannot allow on [their] part. What is the reason for this? There is, Ananda, another happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness. And what, Ananda, is this other happiness more excellent and exquisite than that happiness? Here, Ananda, a [person], by wholly transcending perceptions of material shapes, by the going down of perceptions due to sensory impressions, by not attending to perceptions of difference, thinking: “Ether is unending’, enters and abides in the plane of infinite ether. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness.

 

…[a person], by wholly transcending the plane of infinite ether and thinking: ‘Consciousness is unending’, enters and abides in the plane of infinite consciousness… …[a person], by wholly transcending the plane of infinite consciousness, and thinking: ‘There is no thing’. enters and abides in the plane of no-thing… …[a person]. by wholly transcending the plane of no-thing, enters and abides in the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception.

 

…[a person], by wholly transcending the plane of neither-perception-nor-non-perception. enters and abides in the stopping of perceiving and feeling. This, Ananda, is the other happiness that is more excellent and exquisite than that happiness.

 

… the situation occurs, Ananda, when wanderers belonging to other sects may speak thus: ‘The recluse (Gautama) speaks of the stopping of perceiving and feeling, and lays down that this belongs to happiness. Now what is this, now how is this?’ Ananda, wanderers belonging to other sects who speak thus should be spoken to thus: ‘Your reverences, (Gautama) does not lay down that it is only pleasant feeling that belongs to happiness; for, your reverences, the Tathagatha ("Thus-Gone One") lays down that whenever, wherever, whatever happiness is found it belongs to happiness.

 

(MN I 400, Pali Text Society MN Vol. II p 68-9)

 

“…What do you think about this, reverend Jain: Is King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha, without moving his body, without uttering a word, able to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for seven nights and days?”

 

“No, your reverence.”

 

“What do you think about this, reverend Jain: Is King Seniya Bimbisara of Magadha, without moving his body, without uttering a word, able to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for six nights and days, for five, for four, for three, for two nights and days, for one night and day?”

 

“No, your reverence.”

 

“But I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for one night and day. I, reverend Jain, am able, without moving my body, without uttering a word, to stay experiencing nothing but happiness for two nights and days, for three, four, five, six, for seven nights and days.”

 

(MN I 94, Vol I pg 123-124)

 

 

Not that we disagree, any of us, regarding the importance of experience and the uniqueness of each individual's path.  At least, I don't think we do!  

 

I'm just thinking nobody knows that this teaching exists, what a shame.  

There's a sermon where he talks about holding his breath until his head felt like it was being split by an axe, and worse.  Still, he says, his mind was not impinged upon.  That was during his time of ascetic practices, before his attainment of the cessation of (determinate thought in) perceiving and feeling.  Interestingly, his description about holding his breath is followed by a passage about angels praised the practice:

 

... devatas, having seen me, spoke thus:  'The recluse Gotama has passed away.'  Other devatas spoke thus:  'The recluse Gotama has not passed away, but he is passing away.'  Other devatas spoke thus:  'The recluse Gotama has not passed away, nor is he passing away; the recluse Gotama is a perfected one, the mode of living of a perfected one is just like this.'

 

The translator of the text, I. B. Horner, added a footnote to "perfected one":

 

araham.  Either the devatas were mistaken, for at this time Gotama was not an arahant in its meaning of one who had done all there was to be done, or the term is here being used in a pre-Buddhist sense.

 

Gautama (I prefer the older spelling) goes on to describe his ascetic practices with regard to food, and the dire state he came to be in (it wasn't pretty!)--he concludes that his starvation was of no avail, as far as reaching "the states of further-men".  Presumably, by its position in the text, the earlier breath retention effort didn't avail him either, as far as reaching "the states of further men". 

Which to me makes the passage about the devatas an addition to the text.  That says to me that the notion of breath control, and of stopping the breath as a beneficial practice, was prevalent in India at the time of the Gautamid (but all Gautama got out of it was a splitting headache).  

Gautama goes on to describe how he remembered sitting under a rose-apple tree as his father plowed the fields (and yet, the myth is that Gautama was royal-born), and the happiness he had, as he meditated there.  He realized that such meditation might be the way he had been looking for--he took nourishment and regained his strength, and began meditating. 

 

He described entering the various states of meditation:

 

But yet... the pleasurable feeling, arising in me, persisted, without impinging on my mind.

 

(MN I 247, Pali Text Society Vol I p 302) 

 

Happiness--ho, ho, ho.

 

 

 

 

 

[natural]

23 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

 

Happiness--ho, ho, ho.

 

Christmas in July?

[Apech]

1 hour ago, natural said:

Christmas in July?

 

Turn Manhattan into an isle of joy.

[Apech]

1 hour ago, natural said:

Christmas in July?

 

 

[natural]

2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Thanks!

 

I generally prefer Rye in my Manhattan, but Ella is fantastic addition! 

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, natural said:

Christmas in July?

 

 

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

What are heaven and earth energies?

Traditions which refer to them are Yoga’s Shiva and Shakti, Sufi’s lover and beloved, Daoisms Hun and Po. To me, literally energies that start from the soles of the feet and travel upwards, and cloud like energy that descends and enters in from above. Undeniably a “pleasurable feeling which doesn’t impinge on the mind” because it is heart based. 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Traditions which refer to them are Yoga’s Shiva and Shakti, Sufi’s lover and beloved, Daoisms Hun and Po. To me, literally energies that start from the soles of the feet and travel upwards, and cloud like energy that descends and enters in from above. Undeniably a “pleasurable feeling which doesn’t impinge on the mind” because it is heart based. 

That’s very poetic and nice.  I shall have to stop being so prosaic and boring.

 

 

[manitou]

On 7/5/2022 at 6:37 PM, steve said:

It’s funny to discuss these experiences as if there is a right or wrong answer. There are as many experiences of bliss, or contentment for that matter, as there are experiencers.

 

 

To me, it just means that it's all good.

[C T]

On 03/07/2022 at 10:18 AM, Mark Foote said:

 

 Maybe Daoist/martial arts practices aimed at the three dan t'iens?  

 

 

[silent thunder]

On 7/6/2022 at 7:20 AM, dwai said:

Though it might not be glamorous at all, perfect contentment imho is better than “bliss”. Think about the implications of what contentment is - nothing is craved or shunned -  that IS peace.

As often occurs your sharing is very resonant with my realization on contentment versus happiness/bliss of recent years.  Some time ago I realized a truth in my path and left off seeking happiness or craving bliss entirely.  They are untenable states in my experience. 

 

Happiness and bliss are manic in nature and the manner in which they burn energy is very obviously unsustainable.  To maintain them they require upkeep and they continually siphon energy from the well.  Inevitably when the well runs low, the manic happy state drops off and reveals its duality in the inevitable let down to misery or apathy.  I don't shun them when they arrive, but do nothing to maintain them.  They seem to do less 'damage' to raw presence and simplicity.  When I used to leap whole heartedly into them, they seemed to fuel a bi-polar like cycle that would feed greater extremes of both aspects of their nature.

 

Contentment requires no maintenance, no upkeep, it is not fueled by forms or objects.

Contentment is not only sustainable, but sustaining in my experience. 

Contentment is abiding, unintrusive, undemanding and seems to be foundational, like awareness.

To sit as one is, where one is... to be in raw presence and content... what more powerful practice is there?

 

Happiness rings as hollow as Fear in the long run, and reveals itself as equally unsustainable. 

 

Again, my experience, not touting this for any others, or selling it as the one way, but sharing a bit of what is revealed on my way.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by silent thunder

[manitou]

I see it exactly the same way.

[Bindi]

Contentment to me will always be something settled for, not the ultimate prize. 
 

From Yogapedia: 

 

 

Quote

 

Sat-Chit-Ananda

The meaning of the individual words of sat-chit-ananda are as follows:

• Sat: truth, absolute being or existence-- that which is enduring and unchanging
• Chit: consciousness, understanding and comprehension
• Ananda: bliss, a state of pure happiness, joy and sensual pleasure

A common translation of sat-chit-ananda is "truth-consciousness-bliss." Sometimes sat-chit-ananda is considered to be a triple consciousness, where all three elements can be taken separately or considered as one because, in reality, each element is found in everything.

Some say that the experience of sat-chit-ananda is only accessible to a few advanced spiritual masters. Potentially, only 20 or 30 masters have ever been able to reach and remain in this state. It is easier for people to achieve an illuminated mind, but sat-chit-ananda is a higher state even than that...Though it is a lofty goal that may not be achieved in the practitioner's lifetime, practicing yoga can help move the individual closer to sat-chit-ananda.

 

 

 

If the left and the right are properly ordered, and the above and below can come together and consciousness be established there, then I’d reckon sat-chit-ananda would be a real possibility. My journey hasn’t ended yet in acceptance of what is, because what is internally as it is right now isn’t as good as it gets. To be content in this moment is to accept what is less than ideal within. 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

On 29.5.2022 at 9:47 PM, old3bob said:

I'll bite, if you want to expound on that...

 

Sure.

 

The busy to-and-fro of the dualistic mind comes to a halt when it understands that truth is inherently bipolar. Any statement it is able to make is both true and false, depending on context.

 

The transcendent state of the non-dualistic Self is being approached once the mind reconciles the conflicting views it holds, seeing them as two sides of the very same coin. This way, it reaches a state of balance and ascends to a more sophisticated level.

[old3bob]

6 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Sure.

 

The busy to-and-fro of the dualistic mind comes to a halt when it understands that truth is inherently bipolar. Any statement it is able to make is both true and false, depending on context.

 

The transcendent state of the non-dualistic Self is being approached once the mind reconciles the conflicting views it holds, seeing them as two sides of the very same coin. This way, it reaches a state of balance and ascends to a more sophisticated level.

 

Thanks, btw. and in a certain sense I'd use the term dipolar for this...

Edited July 12, 2022 by old3bob

[C T]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

Contentment to me will always be something settled for, not the ultimate prize. 
 

 

I share this view.

[blue eyed snake]

On 11-7-2022 at 9:50 PM, silent thunder said:

As often occurs your sharing is very resonant with my realization on contentment versus happiness/bliss of recent years.  Some time ago I realized a truth in my path and left off seeking happiness or craving bliss entirely.  They are untenable states in my experience. 

 

Happiness and bliss are manic in nature and the manner in which they burn energy is very obviously unsustainable.  To maintain them they require upkeep and they continually siphon energy from the well.  Inevitably when the well runs low, the manic happy state drops off and reveals its duality in the inevitable let down to misery or apathy.  I don't shun them when they arrive, but do nothing to maintain them.  They seem to do less 'damage' to raw presence and simplicity.  When I used to leap whole heartedly into them, they seemed to fuel a bi-polar like cycle that would feed greater extremes of both aspects of their nature.

 

Contentment requires no maintenance, no upkeep, it is not fueled by forms or objects.

Contentment is not only sustainable, but sustaining in my experience. 

Contentment is abiding, unintrusive, undemanding and seems to be foundational, like awareness.

To sit as one is, where one is... to be in raw presence and content... what more powerful practice is there?

 

Happiness rings as hollow as Fear in the long run, and reveals itself as equally unsustainable. 

 

Again, my experience, not touting this for any others, or selling it as the one way, but sharing a bit of what is revealed on my way.

 

 

 

in this I agree, looking back at states of bliss it seems to me that it was produced by the higher and/or finer energetics burning through the body. The manic part being produced the local self, reveling in it and wanting more.

Contentment is indeed the more balanced state, but I suspect that that sort of contentment is quite blissful 

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

in this I agree, looking back at states of bliss it seems to me that it was produced by the higher and/or finer energetics burning through the body. The manic part being produced the local self, reveling in it and wanting more.

Contentment is indeed the more balanced state, but I suspect that that sort of contentment is quite blissful 

Chuang Tzu is said to have said, "Happiness is the cessation of seeking happiness".