Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[Bindi]

13 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

in this I agree, looking back at states of bliss it seems to me that it was produced by the higher and/or finer energetics burning through the body. The manic part being produced the local self, reveling in it and wanting more.

Contentment is indeed the more balanced state, but I suspect that that sort of contentment is quite blissful 

Edited July 13, 2022 by Bindi

[blue eyed snake]

hm..

you are now putting something on the forums that I shared in private, can you please remove that post.

 

to answer your question, I did not refer to that experience. 

[Bindi]

20 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

hm..

you are now putting something on the forums that I shared in private, can you please remove that post.

 

to answer your question, I did not refer to that experience. 

Sure, removed, my apologies. I think when talking about ‘bliss’ there are many different versions of bliss, to make a sweeping negative statement about bliss because of your particular experience whatever that might be might be throwing the baby out with the bath water. 

[doc benway]

I find it hard to talk about bliss.

I don't look at bliss an objective thing or state that has different versions, or a single version for that matter.

I look at it as an arbitrary label that people attach to subjective experience that is extraordinarily complex and continuously changing. 

 

Any experience of so-called bliss can be broken down into many facets and layers. 

There are cultural influences, individual influences, perceptual and physical influences, spiritual, and so on. 

And we can never experience what someone else calls bliss reliably as experience is unique to each of us. 

So to try and define bliss as something that is fixed and objective, and meaningful independent of context doesn't ring true for me.

 

The experiences in my life that I might label as blissful have had some common ground. 

The commonalities tend to involve a sense of release, a sense of return, a deep and satisfying feeling of coming home.

On occasion it can be energetically intense, exhilarating, even overwhelming; ecstatic and orgasmic.

At other times more a sense of complete and fully satisfying ease, a release and letting go.

 

The feeling of melting into a comfy bed after exhausting work.

Coming home after a long and arduous journey.

The comfort felt when an intense pain has finally eased. 

The freedom one might feel when released from a long time in a cage or prison. 

The satisfaction of reaching the peak after a long climb.

The spaciousness experienced when connecting to a boundless experience of stable and effortless meditation.

 

So for me bliss is connected to a release or dissolving of obstacles, finding one's way back to something one had lost or was missing. 

In the spiritual context it relates to returning to one's true self that was never not already present but was obscured.

As I've mentioned before one way to look at enlightening experience is not so much that we are experiencing a particular state or objective condition that can be labeled bliss, or enlightenment, or contentment for that matter.

What we are experiencing is the release of whatever blockage or obstacle was restricting us from a more full and complete sense of what and who we are at a deeper, more pervasive and satisfying level. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

to make a sweeping negative statement about bliss because of your particular experience whatever that might be might be throwing the baby out with the bath water. 

 

When you read that as a sweeping negative statement, feel free to skip, was just mentioning how the local self can get attached to such experiences.

[old3bob]

and there is the old saying of, "ignorance is bliss" ;-)

[natural]

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

and there is the old saying of, "ignorance is bliss" ;-)

 

Or another golden oldie "ignorance is no excuse"

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, natural said:

 

Or another golden oldie "ignorance is no excuse"

 

as a cop or judge would say...I've been lucky not to have been caught for the all the stuff I used to pull !  (speeding for just one ;-)

[C T]

Excerpt from a vedanet article "Soma, the Bliss Principle in Vedic Knowledge" by Pandit Vamadeva Shastri aka David Frawley

Quote

 

Soma and Mantra

 

Mantra is the main yogic tool for working on the mind. This implies the development of Soma, amrit or Ananda as the essence of the mind. Mantra can be used to develop our inner Soma, which is the bliss and happiness inherent in the nature of awareness. As you develop the Soma or bliss energy of your mantra, it will have a greater healing power both for yourself and for others.

 

Yet as a form of Soma, the mind is also the ultimate result of our nutrition and digestion at both physical and psychological levels. This essence of mental digestion is reflected in our memories. The mind as the essence of our memory should be based upon positive memories and attitudes. Taking your mantra to the deepest level of your memory is an important way to do this.

 

Meditation is a way of cultivating the essence of our being and connecting to the inner delight or Soma of resting in our own nature as pure awareness. It is a way of extracting the essence of peace and bliss that pervades this vast wonderful universe of consciousness. The seed mantra develops into a natural state of meditation in which we can feel a single awareness, vibration and creative energy pervading not only ourselves but also the entire world around us.

 

Unitary Mind, Prana and Speech

 

Concentration is the foundation for developing meditation. The rule is that when the mind becomes one-pointed (what is called the ekagra chitta in Yoga and Vedanta) then it naturally moves into a state of meditation and samadhi – its bliss or Soma begins to naturally flow.

 

This means that we need to bring our minds into a state of singularity, like a singularity as in modern physics that moves beyond the ordinary laws of nature, in order for any inner transformation to occur. In a singular state, the mind is able to move beyond time, space and karma, beyond localized awareness to unitary consciousness that connects us with the entire universe. This single pointed awareness is the bindu or point focus that is also the drop and flow of Soma.

 

A seed mantra is an important way to develop this one-pointed mind. The practice of Self-inquiry in Vedanta, or asking the question “Who am I?” is another. The one-pointed mind is the unitary mind in which we are wholeheartedly attentive to whatever concerns us in life.

 

This unitary mind in turn is linked to the unitary prana, which is the concentration not only of the breath, but the energization of our entire vitality towards a higher goal in life.

 

 

The above have striking similarities with the higher yoga tantras of Vajrayana, which is no surprise.

Here, there's a different look at what constitutes Ananda (Bliss) and how it may be cultivated.

 

Have been thinking about the nuances of Bliss and contentment, and the idea of an ultra marathon runner came up.

I can imagine this person makes a habit of running these extreme distances... whether its possible that the longer he or she runs, the more blissful the runner gets, and this sense of elated freedom is close to what a yogi/yogini will sense in the deeper ends of practice. Contentment comes from knowing that one is able to enter into this presence with growing ease as the path of practice matures.

 

Just some thoughts....

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, C T said:

 

Excerpt from a vedanet article "Soma, the Bliss Principle in Vedic Knowledge" by Pandit Vamadeva Shastri aka David Frawley

 

... Concentration is the foundation for developing meditation. The rule is that when the mind becomes one-pointed (what is called the ekagra chitta in Yoga and Vedanta) then it naturally moves into a state of meditation and samadhi – its bliss or Soma begins to naturally flow.

 

 

CT, I wonder if you would have a link to that article.  I went to vedanet.com but was unable to locate the quote.

I mentioned earlier Buddhaghosa's explanation of one-pointedness of mind:

 

Ekodi-bhuta.  khanika-samadhina ekagga-bhuta samahita, 'by a momentary concentration become one-pointed and tranquillized.'

 

("Sarattappakasini", Buddhaghosa's commentary on Samyutta Nikaya, footnote SN V 144, Pali Text Sociey V p 123-124)

 

 

Buddhaghosa seems to be talking about a spontaneous attainment of concentration--at least, it sounds that way to me.

Frawley mentions "a seed mantra" or "asking the question 'Who am I?'" as ways to develop one-pointed mind.  Buddhaghosa seems to suggest something like Rujing's "drop body and mind".  That brings me to an interesting dharma talk by Dan Leighton:

 

For the last couple of years I have been translating Dogen’s Extensive Record, Eihei Koroku, together with Shohaku Okumura. ... We are nearing the end of a long section of 531 mostly short Dharma Hall Discourses. I want to share with you one we translated last Wednesday from 1252, a year before he died [# 501].

 

... Dogen starts off by talking about body and mind dropped off. It is funny that he says, “Body and mind dropped off is the beginning of our effort.” Dropping off body and mind is an important technical phrase for Dogen, in Japanese shinjin datsuraku. Body and mind dropped away is a name Dogen uses for zazen. For him zazen is simply dropping off body and mind. It is also his name for annuttara samyak sambodhi, “Complete unsurpassed perfect enlightenment”. 

 

,,, The traditional story behind this phrase goes that when he was training with his teacher in a monastery in China in 1227, some twenty-five years before this talk, Dogen was sitting in the monks’ hall late one night and his teacher, Tiantong Rujing, was walking behind the meditating monks, and the person sitting next to Dogen was sleeping. Rujing took off his slipper and hit the sleeping monk, saying, “You are supposed to be dropping off body and mind, why are you engaged in just sleeping, instead of just sitting?” Supposedly Dogen was greatly awakened upon hearing this. 

 

(https://www.ancientdragon.org/dropping-off-body-mind-and-the-pregnant-pillars/)

 

 

A fascinating note about "one-pointed" by Thanissaro Bhikku on dhammatalks.org, for Saddhamma-niyāma Sutta's "Ek’agga".   From that note:
 

... a passage in MN 43 defines the factors of the first jhāna as these: “directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, & one-pointedness of mind.” It has been argued that this statement contains a contradiction, in that the compilers of MN 43 did not realize that one-pointedness precluded thought and evaluation. But perhaps they knew their own language well enough to realize that ek’aggatā—being gathered into oneness—did not preclude the powers of thought. 

(https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN5_151.html#an5.151note01)

 

 

There are other lectures where Gautama included "one-pointedness of mind" among the characteristics of the second, third, and fourth initial concentrations, but omitted the phrase from the characteristics of the first.  A cause of confusion!  Would seem, though, that if "one-pointedness of mind" is characteristic of concentration (as Gautama said it was), then "one-pointedness" must be present in the first concentration, even with thought applied and sustained.

Might not be what Rujing had in mind, though...

Ok, following up I discover that the passage in MN43 is not attributed to Gautama himself, but to Sariputta.  Gautama had a way of gliding over the paradoxes in his teaching, which his disciples did not--they would step right in it, so to speak.  My opinion.

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Mark Foote

[C T]

8 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

CT, I wonder if you would have a link to that article.  I went to vedanet.com but was unable to locate the quote.

 

 

 

https://www.vedanet.com/soma-the-bliss-principle-in-vedic-knowledge/

 

 

[Mark Foote]

More fun on another thread that might be relevant here, if anybody is interested:
 

 

[manitou]

On 7/14/2022 at 3:56 PM, Mark Foote said:

"asking the question 'Who am I?'" as ways to develop one-pointed mind. 

 

 

I think this very question is at the basis of all questioning, all desire for knowledge, the basis for our spiritual quests of any variety.  This is the question that is implanted in us, but not implanted in animals.  They have no need to question themselves, what language would they use to question themselves?  But discovering "Who am I?' - the realization, not something studied, is what brings the contentment (and a type of bliss that is experienced every night when I lay back on my pillow and just say Thank You...to what?  I don't know)

 

I used to search for bliss as a 'funny feeling' - something out of the ordinary mundane feelings, something wonderful and elevating, and mentally (or physically) orgasmic.  Those times come and go.  They're wonderful, no doubt.  But if someone is looking for this elevated stated 24/7, it's merely a shiny object.  The bliss of contentment, of knowing exactly who you are and fitting inside your own skin, knowing your place in the universe, knowing that all time and space are yours - to me, this is bliss today.  It is there whether I am elevated or depressed, although those extremes have greatly leveled out.  Depressions aren't very low, elevations aren't extremely high.  But the type of bliss I relish today is more of a gratitude type of bliss.  And it is 24/7.

 

It is a long path.  It takes forever to develop the meditation skills for a mind that is controllable and capable of stillness.  It takes forever to go through the amount of bumps and bruises that level the ego, at least to the degree necessary for this type of bliss.  It takes forever to remove the inner qualities that hamper us and get in the way, most of which can't even be seen until we start to separate from them.  It takes forever to stop judging, to be able to step back from our own thoughts and even realize that we're being judgmental in some way.  It takes forever to realize that we are all a grain of sand on the same beach, and that We Are the Beach; there is no separation between us.  I am you, and you are I.  It takes forever to really walk our talk, and to even develop the desire to do so.  It takes forever to lose our spiritual arrogance, to not want to flaunt our abilities with a bunch of titles and letters after our names.

 

It is the most basic, the very foundation, that brings this kind of contentment.  The kind of contentment that uses Death as an advisor, as Carlos Castaneda would say....to realize that it doesn't matter whether we are in body or out, we're not our body anyway.  It's the kind of contentment that fears less and less as it goes through life.  The irony of all this is that so often it happens when we're way too old to utilize it at a time in our life when it would have been so helpful.  I wish I'd known this type of contentment when I was a cop.  Seems like I was scared all the time.

 

It's worth pursuing.  It's worth giving up everything for.  It's worth having your ego take repeated beatings, if necessary.  It's why we keep coming back to it.  Sometimes we walk away from it, but we always come back.  

[Mark Foote]

On 7/16/2022 at 4:09 PM, manitou said:

 

... the type of bliss I relish today is more of a gratitude type of bliss.  And it is 24/7.

 

... The kind of contentment that uses Death as an advisor, as Carlos Castaneda would say....to realize that it doesn't matter whether we are in body or out, we're not our body anyway. 

 

 

On the body, with "death as an advisor":

 

It were better… if the untaught manyfolk approached this body, child of the four great elements, as the self rather than the mind. Why so? Seen is it… how this body, child of the four great elements, persists for a year, persists for two years, persists for three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty years, persists for forty, for fifty years, persists for a hundred years and even longer. But this… that we call thought, that we call mind, that we call consciousness, that arises as one thing, ceases as another, whether by night or by day.

 

(SN II 93-94, Pali Text Society II pg 66)

 

Something I found while searching for the quote above:

 

‘The untaught manyfolk... knows of no refuge from painful feeling save sensual pleasure. Delighting in that sensual pleasure, the lurking tendency to sensual pleasure fastens on [that person] ... [As such a person lacks understanding], the lurking tendency to ignorance of neutral feeling [also] fastens on [that person].”

 

(SN IV 208, Vol IV pg 140; bracketed material paraphrases original or replaces original gender-biased pronoun)

 

There is, said Gautama, “a refuge from painful feeling apart from sensual ease” which allows for freedom from such tendencies; the likelihood is that he referred to the equanimity of the initial meditative states.

(Making Sense of the Pali Sutta: the Wheel of the Sayings)

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

great masters walking around in non-duality can not see or find anyone for to blame...

Edited October 3, 2022 by old3bob

[freeform]

Look what a juicy thread I missed while on retreat! 😂

 

I haven’t read everything (most who know me, already know my stance on non-dualism)

 

All I’ll add is that Soma/Amrita is actually a physical substance produced in the body. At least this is certainly the case in alchemy - and I’ve been told this also the case in certain Hindu yogic practice too.

 

Not a metaphorical substance - real physical substance that when it starts to be produced creates real physiological (as well a psychological) change. Profound change. Bliss is just part of that.

 

It’s starting to fill my mouth right now as I began to think of it  

[Mandrake]

On 03/10/2022 at 6:56 PM, freeform said:

Look what a juicy thread I missed while on retreat! 😂

 

I haven’t read everything (most who know me, already know my stance on non-dualism)

 

All I’ll add is that Soma/Amrita is actually a physical substance produced in the body. At least this is certainly the case in alchemy - and I’ve been told this also the case in certain Hindu yogic practice too.

 

Not a metaphorical substance - real physical substance that when it starts to be produced creates real physiological (as well a psychological) change. Profound change. Bliss is just part of that.

 

It’s starting to fill my mouth right now as I began to think of it  

 

Welcome back freeform! Hope all gone well : )

 

 

M

[Bindi]

On 4/10/2022 at 12:56 AM, freeform said:

Look what a juicy thread I missed while on retreat! 😂

 

I haven’t read everything (most who know me, already know my stance on non-dualism)

 

All I’ll add is that Soma/Amrita is actually a physical substance produced in the body. At least this is certainly the case in alchemy - and I’ve been told this also the case in certain Hindu yogic practice too.

 

Not a metaphorical substance - real physical substance that when it starts to be produced creates real physiological (as well a psychological) change. Profound change. Bliss is just part of that.

 

It’s starting to fill my mouth right now as I began to think of it  

This is in and of itself a very interesting topic, Soma/Amrita/Elixir being an entirely physical substance, and part of the overall operation of the developed subtle body. Going beyond any one particular school of thought, I understand this elixir is what the Shakti aspect desires and requires, and the journey is all about bringing these two elements together. 
 

 

[freeform]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

This is in and of itself a very interesting topic, Soma/Amrita/Elixir being an entirely physical substance

Yeah - often in our rush to have all the answers before achieving the aims of internal practice we jump to the wrong conclusions.

 

If we’ve never experienced the Amrita then to us it MUST BE metaphorical… or it’s mushrooms or it’s dmt or it’s ormus or it’s whatever is the trending thing at the moment…

 

We tend to consider older generations as not quite as smart or sophisticated… or we think them to be superstitious - so they can’t possibly have tapped into something that we (modern, smart, sophisticated types) have never encountered.