Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[forestofclarity]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

'It's just illusion, man' - is that really the answer?

 

Well, there's another duality for you to be melted and unbounded--- the duality of emptiness and compassion. Realizing the underlying similarity of all sentient beings causes a natural compassion for them to arise, and this can drive action. 

[dwai]

Spoiler

For all the duelistic dualists

Edited May 17, 2022 by dwai

[stirling]

38 minutes ago, ralis said:

Hmmmm! 22 pages and no answer yet. 

What is the question?

[ralis]

43 minutes ago, stirling said:

What is the question?

 

It's lost in emptiness. 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, ralis said:

Hmmmm! 22 pages and no answer yet. 

 

Dylan's take from the 60's  (who can catch the wind in their hands and it still be the wind ?  My tangent)

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by old3bob

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

the meaning of the journey is not the destination

 

The journey by itself is a meditation. 🧘🏻‍♂️

[stirling]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

It's lost in emptiness. 

Then the answer is extant. 

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, ralis said:

Hmmmm! 22 pages and no answer yet. 

plenty of answers, just none you support.

we all have differing paths mate.

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, ralis said:

 

Norbu stated, there is no difference between samsara and nirvana. I still have the tape in my partner's art studio.

 

What we do we do ? Discuss it here! 

 

Yes Norbu said some words...

What significance are words?

Arent' they ambivelent and useless... simple pointers?

[Mark Foote]

Stirling, thanks for the link to Kobun on the Heart Sutra.  I look forward to reading it.  I do find it disconcerting Thay inserts words into the ancient sutra, and his followers find fault with the words of the sixth patriarch, things that I find inspiration in just as they are.

"what do we do with this life?  What do we do with the tasks presented to us, with our thoughts and emotions, with our relationships to others?"--Apech

What I discovered after years of trying to act solely without the exercise of will, was that my heart-felt belief will give rise to action.  If I truly believe I need to do something, I can hold myself to the place where I am (that takes in everything) and breathe, and action will follow.  A form of auto-hypnotic suggestion, perhaps.    

I can't remain in the cessation of action of the body, but when it really matters, cessation seems to override my will anyway (as Bindi pointed out). 

I get lost in thoughts about the tasks presented to me, about emotions, about relationships.  My thinking gives rise to action.  I try to be careful about what I believe, and I have faith now that my actions, to the extent that I am able, are from the heart.  

 

Gautama speaks of mindfulness of thought, of joy in particular thought, of composing thought, and of detaching from thought.  I think that's the natural rhythm.

I'm ok with a rhythm of elements that "if cultivated and made much of, is something peaceful and choice, something perfect in itself, and a pleasant way of living too" (SN V 320-322, Pali Text Society SN V pg 285).  Cessation of habit or volition in inhalation and exhalation is just one of the elements, I get that now.

I'm 'way late to the game, but happy to feel a play of things.  

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

Most people on here have talked in terms of the non-duality of subject and object - which is of course important.  But in Mahamudra they talk about the non-duality of samsara and nirvana.  You can posit an end of suffering or a yogic union with the primordial mind within the standard definitions of Buddhadharma or Yoga.  But almost inevitably this induces a way of thinking of escape or return or rejection of the everyday reality.  Everything dissolves away and so on.  Birth and death only arise from ignorance or identification and so on.  Which begs the question - what do we do with this life?  What do we do with the tasks presented to us, with our thoughts and emotions, with our relationships to others?  'It's just illusion, man' - is that really the answer?

 

 

 I think most ideas about primordial mind have come from projections about primordial mind, I don’t think anyone is actually operating from primordial mind, and in history maybe one or two ever have actually operated from primordial mind. So I’d say 'It's just illusion, man” is merely a projection from non-primordial minds. 
 

My top two for having actualised primordial mind are Jesus and the founder of neidan/waidan. In both systems the point of this life is to establish immortality of some sort or another:

2 Timothy 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

John 6:50 This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

 

John 8:51. Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

John 11:26  and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Immortality is the stated outcome of neidan as well, “Neidan, or internal alchemy (內丹术; 內丹術; nèidān shù), is an array of esoteric doctrines and physical, mental, and spiritual practices that Taoist initiates use to prolong life and create an immortal spiritual body that would survive after death (Skar and Pregadio 2000, 464).”

 

What to do once immortality is attained they don’t really say, maybe those instructions get handed to you once you’ve attained immortal status. 

 

[old3bob]

(reason has its place and use)

 

But the Lifetime of Lord Brahma (the creator ) is explained below and is not truly immortal as in beginning less and endless.

 

This is Taken from Wikipedia:

• 30 days of Brahma = 1 month of Brahma (259.2 billion human years)
• 12 months of Brahma = 1 year of Brahma (3.1104 trillion human years)
• 50 years of Brahma = 1 Parārdha
• 2 para rdhas = 100 years of Brahma = 1 Para = 1 Mahā-Kalpa (the lifespan of Brahma) (311.04 trillion human years)

Thus only Brahman (not Lord Brahma) is truly immortal,  so granted there are an unknown number ancient immortal like beings existing in the universe itself that have incredibly long lifespans but even they return to Brahman when time is done.  I'd also say that  Elder Brother Jesus, a Being of Divine Golden Light (and those like him) who have evolved very far beyond our normal human states will also return to that which does not evolve,  as we all will. 

 

(btw the historic Buddha hinted to Ananda that he could remain (in light form I take it) for the rest of the cosmic cycle but the Buddha also apparently saw and reached the conclusion that his duty and time in manifest and even the most subtle worlds had come to an end, so for Ananda the possible option of his teacher remaining for the rest of the cosmic cycle was something he did not ask about or catch on to per Buddhist scripture)

Edited May 17, 2022 by old3bob

[ralis]

9 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 

Yes Norbu said some words...

What significance are words?

Arent' they ambivelent and useless... simple pointers?

 

Norbu talked a lot during the ten day retreat. However, the real transmission was nonverbal and very easy to miss. Didn't require one to ponder, think, ruminate, analyze, question, meditate or whatever!

Edited May 17, 2022 by ralis

[ralis]

Dualism in my way of thinking is more akin to Aristotelian logic or binary thinking. Throw out the outdated concept of non dual/dualism and realize unlimited potential. 

[liminal_luke]

15 hours ago, Apech said:

Which begs the question - what do we do with this life?  What do we do with the tasks presented to us, with our thoughts and emotions, with our relationships to others? 

 

 

What do we do with this life?  A phrase from the Sefer Yetzirah, a book of Jewish mysticism, comes to mind: running and returning.  To my mind this phrase refers to a rhythmic oscillation between nondual and dualistic points of view.  Could it be that it's not enough to run, not enough to reach the point where all this nondual stuff makes sense and just stay there basking forever in the heavenly light?  I think the "return" from nondual consciousness back into the mundane dualistic world is an equally important, and often underemphasized, part of the journey.  To me returning means integrating some of the openness and warmth of the nondual perspective into our work, our art, our forum writing style, our relationships. It means relating to samsara narvanistically.  Creating heaven on earth.

Edited May 17, 2022 by liminal_luke

[ralis]

This text describes the shock that I felt. See my previous post. 
 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Heart-Attack-Sutra-New-Commentary-ebook/dp/B01M00FZWF/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3OXF2L9CCRBW&keywords=Heart+Attack+Sutra&qid=1652809678&s=books&sprefix=heart+attack+sutra%2Cstripbooks%2C137&sr=1-1

[stirling]

12 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Stirling, thanks for the link to Kobun on the Heart Sutra.  I look forward to reading it.  I do find it disconcerting Thay inserts words into the ancient sutra, and his followers find fault with the words of the sixth patriarch, things that I find inspiration in just as they are.

 

It would be easy to get lost in the idea that there are "pure" teachings, or that the teachings we read now are in any way like they were when they were first spoken or written, but it seems unlikely. They are hundreds, or even thousands of years old, probably weren't written down originally, and have been translated from languages we don't speak many times. They resonate because the "truth" that they point too has not been diluted, though we may not comprehend it fully. I believe that it is good to think of the teachings, like everything else, as dependently originated. The teachings appear as they are based on causes and conditions in this moment, suited to pushing your buttons, or engaging your mind NOW. This is when they are truly useful.

 

Why not think of these recently-altered teachings as doing precisely the same thing (which they are)?  

 

This is not an endorsement for re-writing teachings, or an admonishment against it. Just a recognition of reality as it is.

Edited May 17, 2022 by stirling

[dwai]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

What do we do with this life?  A phrase from the Sefer Yetzirah, a book of Jewish mysticism, comes to mind: running and returning.  To my mind this phrase refers to a rhythmic oscillation between nondual and dualistic points of view.  Could it be that it's not enough to run, not enough to reach the point where all this nondual stuff makes sense and just stay there basking forever in the heavenly light?  I think the "return" from nondual consciousness back into the mundane dualistic world is an equally important, and often underemphasized, part of the journey.  To me returning means integrating some of the openness and warmth of the nondual perspective into our work, our art, our forum writing style, our relationships. It means relating to samsara narvanistically.  Creating heaven on earth.

Who/What is it that is aware of these oscillations? That IS nondual.

[liminal_luke]

32 minutes ago, dwai said:

Who/What is it that is aware of these oscillations? That IS nondual.

 

Back to the drawing board...

[ralis]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Back to the drawing board...

Actually there should be no effort in realizing the primordial state. 
 

You might get the primordial transmission from a teacher, or even a transmission text. If I remember correctly the link I posted is a transmission text. BTW, a teacher could be many things and not necessarily human. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by ralis

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, ralis said:

Dualism in my way of thinking is more akin to Aristotelian logic or binary thinking. Throw out the outdated concept of non dual/dualism and realize unlimited potential. 

 

A variation on your words… 

 

Dualism is thinking.

Throw out the concept of non dual/dualism and realize unlimited potential.

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

What do we do with this life?  A phrase from the Sefer Yetzirah, a book of Jewish mysticism, comes to mind: running and returning.  To my mind this phrase refers to a rhythmic oscillation between nondual and dualistic points of view.  Could it be that it's not enough to run, not enough to reach the point where all this nondual stuff makes sense and just stay there basking forever in the heavenly light?  I think the "return" from nondual consciousness back into the mundane dualistic world is an equally important, and often underemphasized, part of the journey.  To me returning means integrating some of the openness and warmth of the nondual perspective into our work, our art, our forum writing style, our relationships. It means relating to samsara narvanistically.  Creating heaven on earth.

 

This!

 

If our lives and relationships don’t reflect qualities like openness, kindness, and joy what benefit is there to all of our machinations and reflections? Understanding non duality is worthless and experiencing non duality is worthless. Expressing non duality in our actions is priceless.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

Actually there should be no effort in realizing the primordial state. 
 

 

Are you one of the many wise no-effort absolutists?  I've got to give these no nonsense folks their due: in the final (non)analysis, you're right -- there should be no effort.  In fact, effort likely jinxes the whole endeavor.  For some of us karmically challenged folks though, effort is necessary in the earlier stages.  We put out the effort to get to that place where effort is no longer needed. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by liminal_luke

[doc benway]

Something I posted elsewhere worth mentioning here…

 

As far as abiding is concerned of course there is no practice. If there is somebody there that is not abiding, then there is practice. That is a decision you have to make. Just recognize.

~ Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche

[ralis]

50 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Are you one of the many wise no-effort absolutists?  I've got to give these no nonsense folks their due: in the final (non)analysis, you're right -- there should be no effort.  In fact, effort likely jinxes the whole endeavor.  For some of us karmically challenged folks though, effort is necessary in the earlier stages.  We put out the effort to get to that place where effort is no longer needed. 

 

No effort simply means that the primordial state is prior to any conditioning and beyond conceptual analysis. It is ubiquitous in all realms including this universe. The material world seems to be solid matter, but is space with energy fields that appear to be solid. 

 

As far as any transmission that I received from Norbu, this is how it began. I was in Fields Books in San Fransisco way back in 1989 when it all started. I picked up a book titled "The Crystal and The Way of Light" by Namkhai Norbu. I can't explain it, but suffice it to say, I received a transmission when I picked up the book. Then at Synergia Ranch in Santa Fe 6 months later it happened again. The actual transmission only took about 1 second each time.

 

The real reason I was in San Francisco was that I was in the middle of a divorce.