Differences between dualism and non-dualism

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Following up on this quote:

 

Ancient Indian texts on Yoga describe, “As the breath moves, so does the mind, and mind ceases to move as the breath is stopped.” 

(S. Muktibodhananda; Hatha yoga Pradipika: light on hatha yoga (2nd ed.), Yoga Publication Trust, Bihar (2002))
 

That would be based off the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, a 15th century classic, which Muktibodhananda translates:

 

When prana moves, chitta (the mental force) moves. When prana is without movement, chitta is without movement. By this (steadiness of prana) the yogi attains steadiness and should thus restrain the vayu (air).

 

(Ibid, p 150) 

 

He expands on the definition of vayu, a little farther on in the text--it's not just air:

 

Vayu means ‘air,’ but it does not refer only to the gross air and its chemical properties; it indicates pranic air.  In the pranic body, pingala channelizes prana shakti, but prana vayu moves throughout the whole body like waves of energy. It can be likened to an electromagnetic field where the energy is in constant motion.

 

(Ibid, p 153)

 

Muktibodhananda comments on the passage about prana and chitta:

 

Prana and mind are intricately linked. Fluctuation of one means fluctuation of the other. When either the mind or prana becomes balanced the other is steadied. Hatha yoga says, control the prana and the mind is automatically controlled, whereas raja yoga says, control the mind and prana becomes controlled. These are two paths of yoga.

 

(Ibid, p 150)

 

Muktibodhananda then describes control of the breath, and in particular control of the interval between exhalation and inhalation, as the essential tool of yoga.  He ascribes much of this characterization to Patanjali (per Wikipedia, author of yoga texts, living somewhere between 2nd century B.C.E. and 4th or 5th century C. E.?).  

I didn't realize that folks believed in such a gap between exhale and inhale and even advocated intentionally extending it as far back as that.  I still think that intentionally altering the natural movement of breath is doing a violence to oneself.

Muktibodhananda also gives us the alternative point of view:

 

For many, many centuries, people have known that through pranic restraint you can control the influxes of the mind and through mental restraint you can control the influxes of prana, but various spiritual systems have been debating which is the best method to harness the two energies and induce unity. Christ and Lord Buddha said the same thing – ‘Lead a good life and your mind will be controlled.'

 

(Ibid p 151-2)

 

Muktibodhananda says that won't work for most people in the modern age, and begins to lay out what he conceives of as the science of yoga (and of the channels), based largely on the manipulation of the (presumed) interval between exhalation and inhalation:

 

In the Upanishads, prana vayu is also called the ‘in breath,’ apana the ‘out breath,’ samana the ‘middle breath,’ and udana the ‘up breath.’ Prana vayu is inhalation, apana exhalation, samana the time between inhalation and exhalation, and udana, the extension of samana.

 

... From a yogic point of view the most important vayu is samana. It is related to sushumna nadi. Prana vayu is related to ida, apana to pingala, and ascension of kundalini to udana. Samana vayu has to be developed. This takes place by suspending apana and prana within the region of samana. Each vayu is interdependent and interconnected. In the Chandogya Upanishad it is asked, “On what are you (body and senses) and yourself (soul) supported? On prana. On what is prana supported? On apana. On what is apana supported? On vyana. On what is vyana supported? On samana.”

 

... Prana is the tangible manifestation of the higher Self. Hatha yoga uses prana as the key to expand the awareness of consciousness and realize the Self. Some systems of yoga aim at self-realization by purifying and concentrating the mind, others by purifying and channelizing the emotions, and some by purifying the intellect and developing wisdom. There are so many ways of redirecting the vital life force from the lower to the higher centers. 

 

(Ibid, p 155-7)

The truth of all this, I wouldn't hold my breath to find out.

 

nice research but again more or less sounding like its leaves out the all important and critically safe foundation of the first 2 and then 3rd steps of Raja yoga (or other parallel measures in other systems) that prevent premature and or very risky practices by beginner's.  There are several thousands of hatha yoga studios all over the world but only a tiny handful of deeply qualified hatha yoga masters.  Buyer beware imo. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by old3bob

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

nice research but again more or less sounding like its leaves out the all important and critically safe foundation of the first 2 and then 3rd steps of Raja yoga (or other parallel measures in other systems) that prevent premature and or very risky practices by beginner's.  There are several thousands of hatha yoga studios all over the world but only a tiny handful of deeply qualified hatha yoga masters.  Buyer beware imo. 

 

 

Sounds like you're assuming the breath can be altered without harm if a person has first mastered the preliminaries.  I understand that there are amazing masters of yoga in India and perhaps around the world, but if my focus is on suffering and the path leading to the end of suffering, then I would have to say the sidhis are just a distraction.  

And I still think willfully altering the movement of breath can lead to no good.  

Edited July 4, 2022 by Mark Foote

[dwai]

On 7/1/2022 at 2:39 PM, Mark Foote said:

don't think "mind ceases to move" is a reference to thought ceasing to move.  

There are people out there who see a stoppage of the movement of breath at some point in the exhale as natural, but I think they are not apprehending that the base of consciousness can move.

 

Looks like the results for right and left uninostril breathing involved a study group of only eight individuals.  Small study group, but interesting

There is a basic mistranslation from Sanskrit to English which leads to this misunderstanding. 
 

“Mind” is not the same as consciousness in Sanskrit. Mind is manas - the field of thoughts. So when a yogic/vedantic text refers to “mind stopping”, it means thoughts cease to rise and fall, or the manas pauses. Consciousness of course doesn’t cease, and in Sanskrit it’s called “chit” or “Samvit” or “chaitanya”. 

[old3bob]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Sounds like you're assuming the breath can be altered without harm if a person has first mastered the preliminaries.  I understand that there are amazing masters of yoga in India and perhaps around the world, but if my focus is on suffering and the path leading to the end of suffering, then I would have to say the sidhis are just a distraction.  

And I still think willfully altering the movement of breath can lead to no good.  

 

not really on assumptions, for instance and hopefully with guidance some are more like karma yogis for instance Gandhi, some combine systems and or yoga's somewhat,  some are of more intellectual and philosophical like variations.  Some are more devotional like Bhakti yoga which is potentially very fast per communion.   Btw getting siddhi's is not the goal of Raja yoga... it's 8th step of Self realization is...which is so in many other systems,  and includes compassion by that very nature.

Edited July 4, 2022 by old3bob

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Sounds like you're assuming the breath can be altered without harm if a person has first mastered the preliminaries.  I understand that there are amazing masters of yoga in India and perhaps around the world, but if my focus is on suffering and the path leading to the end of suffering, then I would have to say the sidhis are just a distraction.  

And I still think willfully altering the movement of breath can lead to no good.  

 Hi,

it isn’t really true that holding the breath or changing its rhythm is necessarily unnatural.  For instance when lifting something heavy people will often spontaneously breath in a hold breath for exertion.  The natural resting breath is evenly in and out but may change when say running or jumping.  Also to relax one may alter the depth of breath.  Or make the in breath long and the out breath short.  I do agree though that forcing breath can be dangerous sometimes. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Apech

[doc benway]

14 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 And I still think willfully altering the movement of breath can lead to no good.  

 

Do you feel this applies to spiritual practices that require specific breathing patterns like tsa lung, trul khor, tummo, and so on? My experience is that controlledbreathing patterns, including breath holding, combined with awareness, and sometimes also body movement can be very effective tools for clearing the channels and chakras of obscurations.

[Mark Foote]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

... it isn’t really true that holding the breath or changing its rhythm is necessarily unnatural.  For instance when lifting something heavy people will often spontaneously breath in a hold breath for exertion.  The natural resting breath is evenly in and out but may change when say running or jumping.  Also to relax one may alter the depth of breath.  Or make the in breath long and the out breath short.  I do agree though that forcing breath can be dangerous sometimes. 

 

 

 

Here's Feldenkrais on the tendency to hold one's breath, rising from a chair:

 

The tendency to hold one's breath is instinctive, part of an  attempt to prevent the establishment of shearing stresses or forces likely to shift the vertebrae horizontally, out of the vertical alignment of the spinal column that they constitute.

 

... when the center of gravity has really moved forward over the feet a reflex movement will originate in the old nervous system and straighten the legs, this automatic movement will not be felt as an effort at all.

(Feldenkrais, "Awareness Through Movement", Harper-Collins p 83, 78)

 

Here's Hida Hiramitsu, on posture in "the seated body":

 

The strength of the hara alone is insufficient, the strength of the koshi (pelvic area) alone is not sufficient, either. We should balance the power of the hara and the koshi and maintain equilibrium of the seated body by bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body.

 

(“An Introduction to Zen Training: A Translation of Sanzen Nyumon”, Omori Sogen, tr. Dogen Hosokawa and Roy Yoshimoto, Tuttle Publishing, pg 59)

 

My conclusion:

 

If my sitting is geared toward the cessation of voluntary or habitual activity in the inhalation or exhalation of breath, then action of one kind or another, even “bringing the center of the body’s weight in line with the center of the triangular base of the seated body”, must eventually be abandoned. As near as I can tell, what remains is one-pointedness of mind, centrifugal and centripetal force at the location of mind, and the action of inhalation or exhalation.

 

(What Remains)
 

More from Feldenkrais:

 

I am generally against breathing exercises in the commonly accepted notion of breathing exercises where I would be teaching someone that they must breathe like this or like that. It is exactly as if you told someone they must say this or that. If you meet with a woman, you must talk a little about politics, a little about the weather, or love, etc. You know what results from such instructions? An idiot results. It is the same thing if you tell someone how they should breathe. The instructions usually destroy their breathing.

 

(Moshe Feldenkrais, from https://feldenkrais.com/whats-the-right-way-to-breathe-a-different-take-on-breathing-exercises/)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[C T]

Mr Feldenkrais mustn't have been familiar with extreme sports breathwork training then, especially freediving.. 

 

"How to hold your breath for 5 minutes in 1 month – Freediving training." (From a freediving website)

 

 

Nor this

https://www.webmd.com/balance/what-is-breathwork

 

Its possible he meant wrong instructions destroy breathing. 

 

[natural]

I practiced skip breathing while scuba diving with impressive results, and at great risk. Oh, the ignorance of youth.

Partially due to my cave diving training, swim in until one third of air is consumed reserving two thirds to exit the cavern or cave environment. I usually used only a quarter of the air supply going in and similar amounts to exit.

[dwai]

What I have learned about “breath control” is of yogic nature. Breathwork has a huge role to play in preparing the mind for meditation. The breath, prana/qi and mind are interlinked. Breath control is done to regulate prana/qi, and prana/qi regulation in turn regulates the mind (and vice versa). 
To understand this, one needs to understand the concept of the Gunas in the yogic paradigm. Inertia (tamas), kinetic activity (rajas), and spiritual clarity/tranquility  (satva). 
 

Natural breath cessation is an outcome of specific breathing techniques, and consequently the mind is settled/stilled. This is important for people who have high level of rajas. Such people need to focus on pranayama to produce clarity. For people who have high degree of tamas, they need to follow asanas to convert the inertia to kinetic energy (rajas), and then they can transform it to spiritual clarity (satva) via breath work. There is a few thousand years of empirical evidence about this.  

[liminal_luke]

I don't think it's possible to make blanket statements about the value of controlled breathwork.  As with so many other things, individual context is everything: who is doing what when.

[natural]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

 

Natural breath cessation is an outcome of specific breathing techniques, and consequently the mind is settled/stilled. 

 

Well, that was certainly my experience in my underwater explorations. It often said as pilot one experiences hours of joy with moments of terror. The opposite seemed to be true to when I dove in caves mostly controlled panic then a moment of bliss. An albino cave critter or a fossil, and WOW!

[old3bob]

and the musical angle is somewhere in there...

 

 

[natural]

6 minutes ago, old3bob said:

and the musical angle is somewhere in there...

 

 

Amazing! Thank you!

 

[natural]

Did he have anything to do with hootie and the blow fish? Inspiration perhaps?

[dwai]

2 hours ago, natural said:

I practiced skip breathing while scuba diving with impressive results, and at great risk. Oh, the ignorance of youth.

Partially due to my cave diving training, swim in until one third of air is consumed reserving two thirds to exit the cavern or cave environment. I usually used only a quarter of the air supply going in and similar amounts to exit.

Do you have to control your epiglottis to regulate inhale/exhale duration? 

[Mark Foote]

2 hours ago, C T said:

 

Mr Feldenkrais mustn't have been familiar with extreme sports breathwork training then, especially freediving.. 

 

"How to hold your breath for 5 minutes in 1 month – Freediving training." (From a freediving website)

 

 

My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. He was trained to do so in a manner similar to how they train Navy Seals. They are able to do relaxation techniques and override their body’s impulse to panic. I’m not sure if everyone can accomplish this or if they are outliers. 

 

(“The Case of the Suffocating Woman”, posted on Slate Star Codex April 5, 2017 by Scott Alexander; http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/05/the-case-of-the-suffocating-woman/)

 

I'm all for relaxing.

 

2 hours ago, C T said:

 

Nor this

https://www.webmd.com/balance/what-is-breathwork

 

Its possible he meant wrong instructions destroy breathing. 

 

 

That article was checked for accuracy, by a pediatrician.

[natural]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Do you have to control your epiglottis to regulate inhale/exhale duration? 

No, it involved slow mindful breathing in stages, a slow controlled inhalation, followed by a segmented controlled exhale. No training it occurred naturally. But required some exploration. A reverse to the natural fight flight reaction? I am not sure exactly how or why it occurred. We were taught to regulate our breathing to control our depth, a huge inhale and you may rise 10 feet in a second or two, likewise exhaling to fast and you might sink too fast and stir up sediment. 

 

Slow and steady in out were the orders of the day. It was cool to float along varying depth with breath. We of course began with neutral buoyance @ 30 feet or so.

[natural]

9 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. 

 

 

 

I'm all for relaxing.

 

 

I am pretty chill too. Is he a free diver?

[Mark Foote]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

 

What I have learned about “breath control” is of yogic nature. Breathwork has a huge role to play in preparing the mind for meditation. The breath, prana/qi and mind are interlinked. Breath control is done to regulate prana/qi, and prana/qi regulation in turn regulates the mind (and vice versa). 
To understand this, one needs to understand the concept of the Gunas in the yogic paradigm. Inertia (tamas), kinetic activity (rajas), and spiritual clarity/tranquility  (satva). 
 

Natural breath cessation is an outcome of specific breathing techniques, and consequently the mind is settled/stilled. This is important for people who have high level of rajas. Such people need to focus on pranayama to produce clarity. For people who have high degree of tamas, they need to follow asanas to convert the inertia to kinetic energy (rajas), and then they can transform it to spiritual clarity (satva) via breath work. There is a few thousand years of empirical evidence about this.  

 

 

Another translation of the quote about the relationship between breath and the mind (the quote from Pradipika):

 

Respiration being disturbed, the mind becomes disturbed. By restraining respiration, the Yogī gets steadiness of mind

"Chittam" is the word used for mind.  From Wikipedia, "chitta (Buddhism)":

 

The Pali–English Dictionary translates citta as heart or heart-mind, emphasizing it as more the emotive side of mind, as opposed to manas as the intellect in the sense of what grasps mental objects (dhamma). Citta is the object of meditation in the third part of Satipatthana, also called Four Foundations of Mindfulness.

 

Here is the third part of Gautama's way of living, the mindfulness of mind that was his own (from "anapanasati"):

 

Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out.”

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

“Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out.

Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out.

Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out."

 

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V pg 275-276)

 

Not particularly about emotion, that.  Goes to show, the understanding of words, and of practices, changes with time and with the teacher.  

Here's the whole section with the quote about "cittam", from "Hatha Yoga Pradipika", which is a 15th century C.E. text:

 

अथासने दॄधे योगी वशी हित-मिताशनः |
गुरूपदिष्ह्ट-मार्गेण पराणायामान्समभ्यसेत || १ ||

 

athāsane dṝdhe yoghī vaśī hita-mitāśanaḥ |
ghurūpadiṣṭa-mārgheṇa prāṇāyāmānsamabhyaset || 1 ||

 

Posture becoming established, a Yogī, master of himself, eating salutary and moderate food, should practise Prāṇāyāma, as instructed by his guru.

 

छले वाते छलं छित्तं निश्छले निश्छलं भवेत||
योगी सथाणुत्वमाप्नोति ततो वायुं निरोधयेत || २ ||

 

chale vāte chalaṃ chittaṃ niśchale niśchalaṃ bhavet||
yoghī sthāṇutvamāpnoti tato vāyuṃ nirodhayet || 2 ||

 

Respiration being disturbed, the mind becomes disturbed. By restraining respiration, the Yogī gets steadiness of mind

 

यावद्वायुः सथितो देहे तावज्जीवनमुछ्यते |
मरणं तस्य निष्ह्क्रान्तिस्ततो वायुं निरोधयेत || ३ ||

 

yāvadvāyuḥ sthito dehe tāvajjīvanamuchyate |
maraṇaṃ tasya niṣkrāntistato vāyuṃ nirodhayet || 3 ||

 

So long as the (breathing) air stays in the body, it is called life. Death consists in the passing out of the (breathing) air. It is, therefore, necessary to restrain the breath.

 

मलाकलासु नाडीष्हु मारुतो नैव मध्यगः |
कथं सयादुन्मनीभावः कार्य-सिद्धिः कथं भवेत || ४ ||

 

malākalāsu nāḍīṣu māruto naiva madhyaghaḥ |
kathaṃ syādunmanībhāvaḥ kārya-siddhiḥ kathaṃ bhavet || 4 ||

 

The breath does not pass through the middle channel (suṣumnā), owing to the impurities of the nādīs. How can then success be attained, and how can there be the unmanī avasthā.

 

शुद्धमेति यदा सर्वं नाडी-छक्रं मलाकुलम |
तदैव जायते योगी पराण-संग्रहणे कष्हमः || ५ ||

 

śuddhameti yadā sarvaṃ nāḍī-chakraṃ malākulam |
tadaiva jāyate yoghī prāṇa-saṃghrahaṇe kṣamaḥ || 5 ||

 

When the whole system of nādīs which is full of impurities, is cleaned, then the Yogī becomes able to control the Prāṇa.

 

पराणायामं ततः कुर्यान्नित्यं सात्त्विकया धिया |
यथा सुष्हुम्णा-नाडीस्था मलाः शुद्धिं परयान्ति छ || ६ ||

 

prāṇāyāmaṃ tataḥ kuryānnityaṃ sāttvikayā dhiyā |
yathā suṣumṇā-nāḍīsthā malāḥ śuddhiṃ prayānti cha || 6 ||

 

Therefore, Prāṇāyāma should be performed daily with sātwika buddhi (intellect free from raja and tama or activity and sloth), in order to drive out the impurities of the suṣumnā.

 

(Wisdom Library, https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/hatha-yoga-pradipika-english/d/doc7975.html)

 

"Respiration being disturbed, the mind becomes disturbed."  I'm good with sitting myself down and relaxing the activity of breath, with calming the activity of posture/the senses, with detaching from the activity of mind, and with witnessing the cessation of habit/volition in an in-breath or an out-breath.  That's a kind of restraining, but that doesn't seem to be what is meant in Pradipika.

 

"The mind becomes disturbed"--when the mind is disturbed, it's not one-pointed.  Gautama said  "... making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness of mind."  I can relate to that.

"So long as the (breathing) air stays in the body, it is called life. Death consists in the passing out of the (breathing) air. It is, therefore, necessary to restrain the breath."  

 

This is about attaining immortality, like the Daoists?  Not my goal.
 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

1 hour ago, natural said:

 

I am pretty chill too. Is he a free diver?

 

 

Natual, that was a quote from a comment added to an article entitled "The Case of the Suffocating Woman".  You can read about it here.

Here's the comment again, with a little more relevant to the suffocation response:
 

My husband is a spear fisherman and he can hold his breath underwater for almost four minutes. He was trained to do so in a manner similar to how they train Navy Seals. They are able to do relaxation techniques and override their body’s impulse to panic. I’m not sure if everyone can accomplish this or if they are outliers. But one important point that I think fits into the topic here. They have to be wary of something called shallow water blackout. They will hold their breath without the panic response literally until they pass out underwater, and drown (even if they are only sitting on the bottom of a pool with a foot or two of water above them).

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, natural said:

Amazing! Thank you!

 

 

Dizzy had what's called, "glass blowers disease" in his cheeks.  There is a way to prevent that which was said he did not know about.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

 

Another translation of the quote about the relationship between breath and the mind (the quote from Pradipika):

 

Respiration being disturbed, the mind becomes disturbed. By restraining respiration, the Yogī gets steadiness of mind

"Chittam" is the word used for mind.  From Wikipedia, "chitta (Buddhism)":

 

The Pali–English Dictionary translates citta as heart or heart-mind, emphasizing it as more the emotive side of mind, as opposed to manas as the intellect in the sense of what grasps mental objects (dhamma). Citta is the object of meditation in the third part of Satipatthana, also called Four Foundations of Mindfulness.

yes I’m aware of the Buddhist use of the terminology, it can lead to confusion. There is, especially in translation, a conflation of mind and consciousness which is not very productive for proper inquiry imho.
 

The system I find to be most clear is the vedantic one, which clearly identifies the antahkarana — comprising of manas, chitta, ahamkara, and buddhi (thought field, storehouse of impressions and memories, ego, and intellect, respectively), lit up by chit (or chaitanya) - consciousness. 
 

A lot of English translation issues can be resolved by following this definition. 

Quote

 

Here is the third part of Gautama's way of living, the mindfulness of mind that was his own (from "anapanasati"):

 

Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out.”

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

“Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out.

Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out.

Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out."

 

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V pg 275-276)

 

Not particularly about emotion, that.  Goes to show, the understanding of words, and of practices, changes with time and with the teacher.  

 

That is even more exacerbated by improper translations. There are a lot of untranslatable native words which are roughly translated into English words, consequently causing confusion. 

Quote

Here's the whole section with the quote about "cittam", from "Hatha Yoga Pradipika", which is a 15th century C.E. text:

 

अथासने दॄधे योगी वशी हित-मिताशनः |
गुरूपदिष्ह्ट-मार्गेण पराणायामान्समभ्यसेत || १ ||

 

athāsane dṝdhe yoghī vaśī hita-mitāśanaḥ |
ghurūpadiṣṭa-mārgheṇa prāṇāyāmānsamabhyaset || 1 ||

 

Posture becoming established, a Yogī, master of himself, eating salutary and moderate food, should practise Prāṇāyāma, as instructed by his guru.

 

छले वाते छलं छित्तं निश्छले निश्छलं भवेत||
योगी सथाणुत्वमाप्नोति ततो वायुं निरोधयेत || २ ||

 

chale vāte chalaṃ chittaṃ niśchale niśchalaṃ bhavet||
yoghī sthāṇutvamāpnoti tato vāyuṃ nirodhayet || 2 ||

 

Respiration being disturbed, the mind becomes disturbed. By restraining respiration, the Yogī gets steadiness of mind

 

यावद्वायुः सथितो देहे तावज्जीवनमुछ्यते |
मरणं तस्य निष्ह्क्रान्तिस्ततो वायुं निरोधयेत || ३ ||

 

yāvadvāyuḥ sthito dehe tāvajjīvanamuchyate |
maraṇaṃ tasya niṣkrāntistato vāyuṃ nirodhayet || 3 ||

 

So long as the (breathing) air stays in the body, it is called life. Death consists in the passing out of the (breathing) air. It is, therefore, necessary to restrain the breath.

 

मलाकलासु नाडीष्हु मारुतो नैव मध्यगः |
कथं सयादुन्मनीभावः कार्य-सिद्धिः कथं भवेत || ४ ||

 

malākalāsu nāḍīṣu māruto naiva madhyaghaḥ |
kathaṃ syādunmanībhāvaḥ kārya-siddhiḥ kathaṃ bhavet || 4 ||

 

The breath does not pass through the middle channel (suṣumnā), owing to the impurities of the nādīs. How can then success be attained, and how can there be the unmanī avasthā.

 

शुद्धमेति यदा सर्वं नाडी-छक्रं मलाकुलम |
तदैव जायते योगी पराण-संग्रहणे कष्हमः || ५ ||

 

śuddhameti yadā sarvaṃ nāḍī-chakraṃ malākulam |
tadaiva jāyate yoghī prāṇa-saṃghrahaṇe kṣamaḥ || 5 ||

 

When the whole system of nādīs which is full of impurities, is cleaned, then the Yogī becomes able to control the Prāṇa.

 

पराणायामं ततः कुर्यान्नित्यं सात्त्विकया धिया |
यथा सुष्हुम्णा-नाडीस्था मलाः शुद्धिं परयान्ति छ || ६ ||

 

prāṇāyāmaṃ tataḥ kuryānnityaṃ sāttvikayā dhiyā |
yathā suṣumṇā-nāḍīsthā malāḥ śuddhiṃ prayānti cha || 6 ||

 

Therefore, Prāṇāyāma should be performed daily with sātwika buddhi (intellect free from raja and tama or activity and sloth), in order to drive out the impurities of the suṣumnā.

 

(Wisdom Library, https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/hatha-yoga-pradipika-english/d/doc7975.html)

 

"Respiration being disturbed, the mind becomes disturbed."  I'm good with sitting myself down and relaxing the activity of breath, with calming the activity of posture/the senses, with detaching from the activity of mind, and with witnessing the cessation of habit/volition in an in-breath or an out-breath.  That's a kind of restraining, but that doesn't seem to be what is meant in Pradipika.

I think that can be quite a case of “cart before the horse” for many people (especially modern people). The process of sitting down and witnessing can be quite arduous without the aid of posture and breath. But it is certainly true that the breath work should be an intermediate practice at best. Beyond a certain point of purification of the mind, it becomes unnecessary in my experience, especially in the Self-inquiry type of practices. 

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"The mind becomes disturbed"--when the mind is disturbed, it's not one-pointed.  Gautama said  "... making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, lays hold of one-pointedness of mind."  I can relate to that.

"So long as the (breathing) air stays in the body, it is called life. Death consists in the passing out of the (breathing) air. It is, therefore, necessary to restrain the breath."  

 

This is about attaining immortality, like the Daoists?  Not my goal.
 

 

I’ve found that many of these texts use “death” to refer to loss of discrimination between consciousness and the mind-stuff/samsara. For example, in the katha Upanishad the Yama says to little nachiketa, “those who fail to recognize that all this (samsara) is Brahman alone, will travel from death to death. Immortality is not typically a physical immortality, but the recognition of the non-duality of the “self” and  “world”  with Brahman. 

[Mark Foote]

10 hours ago, steve said:

 

Do you feel this applies to spiritual practices that require specific breathing patterns like tsa lung, trul khor, tummo, and so on? My experience is that controlled breathing patterns, including breath holding, combined with awareness, and sometimes also body movement can be very effective tools for clearing the channels and chakras of obscurations.

 

 

From Wikipedia (Tsalung):

 

Tsalung (Skt: nadi-vayu; Tib. rtsa rlung; where "rtsa" denotes an energetic channel) are special yogic exercises.^[1] The exercises are used in the Bon tradition and the four main schools of Tibetan Buddhism. Trul khor employs the tsa lung...

 

The exercises are used:^[2]

• to bring the lung from the side channels into the central channel
• to open major chakras

That coincides with mind releasing dualistic misperceptions and abiding in non-dual awareness of rigpa (Tib. rig pa).

 

Background:

 

The subtle body yogas systems like the Six Dharmas of Naropa and the Six Yogas of Kalachakra make use of energetic schemas of human psycho-physiology composed of "energy channels" (Skt. nadi, Tib. rtsa), "winds" or currents (Skt. vayu, Tib. rlung), "drops" or charged particles (Skt. bindu, Tib. thig le) and chakras ("wheels"). These subtle energies are seen as "mounts" for consciousness, the physical component of awareness. They are engaged by various means such as pranayama (breath control) to produce blissful experiences that are then applied to the realization of ultimate reality.

 

That's what's fascinating about Gautama's description of his attainment of a cessation of "perceiving and feeling"--true that there were no cankers (no desire for sense-pleasures, no becoming, no ignorance), but:  "only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself"--that doesn't sound so blissful!  Nor is it a "realization of ultimate reality"--it's just what is, when habit and will cease.  Not different from everyday reality, just without the grasping.

 

Ok, I'll admit Wikipedia is not necessarily the most accurate description...

Where do your actions come from, when "the channels and chakras" are cleared of obscurations?  When you say techniques that intentionally alter the movement of breath can be very effective tools, are you speaking of actions or realizations?

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

Where do your actions come from, when "the channels and chakras" are cleared of obscurations? 

In Bön dzogchen language, the natural state, the unspeakable state.

 

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When you say techniques that intentionally alter the movement of breath can be very effective tools, are you speaking of actions or realizations?

Both

The techniques themselves are actions performed by a practitioner. When the practitioner is no longer present, no longer engaged, there is realization. At this point there is no need for techniques as the obscurations are gone.