Did Lao Tsu Fail?

[treebuffalo]

Given the state of the world (and maybe the temperament of humanity), did Lao Tsu's message to follow Nature's Way fail? 

[silent thunder]

Who determines what is natural for humans?

 

Some folks are psychotic and murderous.

Some are quiet and loving.

Some are sociopathic and power craving.

Some don't care about much at all and just try to get by...

Some are outgoing and attention seeking.

Some spend more time thinking about and serving others than themselves.

Some are...__________

Some are...__________

 

There doesn't appear to be one nature among us.  And yet, we are one. 

As for failure... Who's to say what is failure? 

Perhaps a strong missed step will prompt a grand awakening?

Who could be the Arbiter of success?

 

Intriguing question regarding failure; that to me has no firm answer. 

Which is awesome.  I prefer unanswerable questions to answers that shouldn't be questioned.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[CozySpace]

Lao Tzu's spiritual message is still alive and being appreciated, by those who are able to. 

[Eduardo]

5 hours ago, treebuffalo said:

Given the state of the world (and maybe the temperament of humanity), did Lao Tsu's message to follow Nature's Way fail? 

 

I believe that having an artificial intention to achieve something, is far from the naturalness and spontaneity taught in Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching.

[awaken]

7 hours ago, treebuffalo said:

Given the state of the world (and maybe the temperament of humanity), did Lao Tsu's message to follow Nature's Way fail? 

 

 

也不能說失敗，起碼道德經還存在，還是有很多像我這樣的人，

我在很年輕的時候，不到二十歲的時候就接觸老子，莊子，

深深為其哲學境界所感動的

 

It can’t be said to be a failure, at least the Tao Te Ching still exists, and there are still many people like me,

When I was very young, when I was less than twenty years old, I came into contact with Lao Tzu, Zhuang Tzu,

deeply moved by his philosophical realm

[wandelaar]

Yes! Lao tzu failed on the social level, and he was acutely aware of it. See Chapter 20.

 

But some people even today still value his lessons, so on an individual level he had some limited success.

Edited May 5, 2022 by wandelaar

[awaken]

老子如果失敗了，你今天就不會在這裡讀老子了

 

老子的政治哲學跟修煉程度息息相關

 

並非是老子的政治哲學被放棄

 

而是人類提升自我的能力太差了

 

這個社會裡，人渣永遠比菁英要多上許多

 

If Lao Tzu failed, you wouldn't be reading Lao Tzu here today

Lao Tzu's political philosophy is closely related to the level of cultivation

It's not that Lao Tzu's political philosophy was abandoned

It's the poor ability of human beings to improve themselves.

In this society, there are always more scumbags than elites.

 

所以為什麼在戰國時代末年採用法家思想的人取得勝利

就是因為社會結構中，人渣的數量遠遠大於精英

 

So why did those who adopted Legalism at the end of the Warring States period win?

It is because in the social structure, the number of scum is far greater than that of the elite

[wandelaar]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

So why did those who adopted Legalism at the end of the Warring States period win?

It is because in the social structure, the number of scum is far greater than that of the elite

 

Which is the same as saying that Lao tzu failed on the social level. It would be great if people in general followed his lessons, but they don't. Even now when everybody in the West has the possibility to read and practice his lessons, most just don't care. That's why he failed on the social level, and Lao tzu saw exactly the same disinterest in his own days. Calling the common people scumbags doesn't change that a bit.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

47 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Which is the same as saying that Lao tzu failed on the social level. It would be great if people in general followed his lessons, but they don't. Even now when everybody in the West has the possibility to read and practice his lessons, most just don't care. That's why he failed on the social level, and Lao tzu saw exactly the same disinterest in his own days. Calling the common people scumbags doesn't change that a bit.

Really makes you think how someone's practice helps them develop into a better person if they are labelling most of the world as "scum"

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Really makes you think how someone's practice helps them develop into a better person if they are labelling most of the world as "scum"

 

Yes. I don't think that needs any further comment.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Really makes you think how someone's practice helps them develop into a better person if they are labelling most of the world as "scum"

 

Perhaps he meant humanity generally  and not 'most of the world '  ?   Looking at  humanity generally , or lets say , averaging out their traits to consider humanity one person ... and then look at their actions , either from a  psychiatric or judicial perspective ...... sorry, but  they would be considered criminally insane !

 

people ..... 'nice' individually, most of them ..... in a group ?  Look out !

 

Lao tsu didnt fail IMO .... not for me he didnt  .

 

 

[Feral]

He was just a guy speaking about the truth of Nature, including human nature. The success/failure yardstick is an odd way to measure the teachings, but no, they have not failed me personally.

 

[treebuffalo]

Yeah the "scum" label caught me off guard as well. But Awaken doesn't speak English well by their own admission...

 

I think what they and Nungali are alluding to is humanity's tendency to start fires just to put them out. I.e. when the herd starts stampeding everyone else just joins in. Which brings around the purpose of my post.

 

Maybe our stampedes are natural? Does it even matter if any of us understand why things happen? 

 

 

 

 

[skyblue]

It depends on what you consider failure as. If failure to bring about an eternal world peace and communal bliss to the planet is considered as his failure, then yes. He failed.

 

If him being one of the pillars of the worldwide spread of Daoism and just spirituality in general counts as success, then he succeeded.

 

I think that he did what he could, and went his own way to attain the Dao. He worked for the emperor, felt dispassionate, and went away, but not before leaving the sagely treatise. Acted as an example to the world as a live and an excellent personification of the concept of 'letting go'.

[CozySpace]

If the gatekeeper never asked him to write the TTC (if we are to believe that story), then he would've just been on his merry way and minding his own business. I'm sure he knew that most people wouldn't be able to apply his advice properly, and that his criticisms on society will no longer be applicable either as society changes with time. I think he was just sincerely trying his best to write spiritual advice for living, for whoever happens to read it, with no thought to whether it will be successful or not.

[awaken]

On 2022/5/5 at 10:55 PM, wandelaar said:

 

Which is the same as saying that Lao tzu failed on the social level. It would be great if people in general followed his lessons, but they don't. Even now when everybody in the West has the possibility to read and practice his lessons, most just don't care. That's why he failed on the social level, and Lao tzu saw exactly the same disinterest in his own days. Calling the common people scumbags doesn't change that a bit.

 

 人類的素質太差的話，就很難實現老子的哲學

 

就像同樣的政治理念，在歐洲能實現，在非洲和中國就很難

 

比較容易判別的是學生的素質，到不同的學校看到不同的學生素質就能知道，學生素質很好的班級和學生素質很差的班級，就不可能使用同一種管理

 

素質比較好的班級比較適合用道家的無為而治

素質很差的班級比較適合用法家

 

 

If the quality of human beings is too poor, it will be difficult to realize Lao Tzu's philosophy

Just like the same political idea that can be achieved in Europe, it is difficult to achieve in Africa and China

It is easier to distinguish the quality of the students. You can see the different quality of students in different schools. It is impossible to use the same management in a class with good students and a class with bad students.

Classes with better quality are more suitable for Taoist rule 

Classes with poor quality are more suitable for Faist rule

 

我講的就是人渣沒錯

 

你在監獄使用的管理方法跟你在佛教團體使用的管理方法不可能相同

 

當然社會是介於這兩者之間

 

一個都是文盲的國家的管理方式，跟一個都是受到良好教育的國家的管理方式，不可能相同

 

I'm talking about scumbags

The management methods you use in prison can't be the same as the management methods you use in Buddhist groups

Of course society is somewhere in between

A country that is all illiterate cannot be governed in the same way as a country that is all well educated

 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by awaken