ch 3 - a totalitarian dark place?

[Cobie]

Kroll 心

1. the heart, as the centre of intellectual and emotional activity >

2. the centre

3. (Budd.) the mind 

 

<Kroll>

虛  < empty; unassuming, self-effacing, humble >

實 < full; honest, sincere > I think this rules out  ‘pride’.
 

Lin Yutang

in his book ‘The wisdom of Laotse’, Ch 3, note 11 :

“Empty-heart” in the Chinese language means “open mindedness” or “humility”, a sign of the cultured gentleman.  Sometimes used to mean “passivity.”  Throughout Laotse’s book,  “empty” and “full” are used as meaning “humility” and “pride” respectively.

 

Ch 3:

虛 亓 心 xu1 qi2 xin1 < empty | … > 

實 亓 腹  shi2 qi2 fu4 < full; replete with | … >

 

虛 亓 心 xu1 qi2 xin1 

Lin Yutang’s translation: He keeps empty their hearts. 

 

English has a similar idiom, ‘full of himself’.

 

“Empty heart” 虛心 (same characters as in Ch 3 虛 亓 心 xu1 qi2 xin1).
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/虛心 :

modest; open minded 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

@wandelaar you might find this interesting:

 

On 08/05/2022 at 10:20 PM, Cobie said:

DDJ Ch 3 by Henricks …
5. He empties their minds

 

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Kroll 心

1. the heart, as the centre of intellectual and emotional activity 

2. the centre

3. (Budd.) the mind

Henricks used a meaning that is Buddhist.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

I would have translated "He empties their hearts" with a note that for the Chinese of those times the heart was seen as the centre of intellectual and emotional activity. But as for westerners the heart is not seen as the centre of intellectual activity apparently Henricks prefers to use the word "mind" here so as to avoid the possible confusion. The drawback is that this doesn't do full justice to the emotional aspect of the phrase.

[Cobie]

Kroll mentions both intellect and emotion.

 

Kroll 心

1. the heart, as the centre of intellectual and emotional activity 

2. the centre

3. (Budd.) the mind

 

Henricks reduces it to one aspect only. He uses the Buddhist meaning.

 

The character used (心) is a pictograph of a physical ‘heart’.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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[wandelaar]

4 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Neither was it in the time of Laozi.

 

Why do you even quote Kroll's Dictionary if you don't care what the book says...

Edited May 21, 2022 by wandelaar

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[awaken]

智者弗言 is not { those who knows don't speak}

 

 Wise people don't talk nonsense

 

Therefore, wise people do speak, just don't speak nonsense

 

事實上老子說很多，不只孔子的書裡面有記載，莊子也有記載
並非是智者不說

In fact, Laozi said a lot, not only in the books of Confucius, but also in Zhuangzi
It's not that the wise do not speak

Edited May 21, 2022 by awaken

[Cobie]

智者弗言 - knowledge they not speak it

That’s all you got, the “nonsense” is made-up.

 老子 homophone 老師 lǎoshī , homophone lousy teacher.  

 

 

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[awaken]

弗

甲骨文的意思是用繩子綁好一堆條狀的東西

 

後來衍生涵義為『不』

 

 

Oracle means a bunch of strips tied with a rope

Later derived meaning "no"

 

但是這裡的意思，如果採用衍生含義就說不通

如果使用甲骨文原始意義，就說得通

But the meaning here does not make sense if the derivative meaning is used

Makes sense if using the original Oracle meaning

 

 

 

弗是一個古字，從甲骨文就有了

因此會產生『假借』的現象

 

例如『叔』的原意是撿拾，被『假借』成為叔父

 

弗 is an ancient word, and it has been known from oracle bone inscriptions.

Therefore, there will be a phenomenon of "borrowing"

For example, the original meaning of "叔" was to ‘pick up’, and was "borrowed" to become an ‘uncle’

 

另外弗這個字在韓非子一書當中，也有另外的意思

(1) 通“沸”( fèi)。泉水喷涌的样子 [gush out of spring water]

其高工之民，修治苦窳之器，聚弗靡之财，蓄积待时而牟农夫之利。——《韩非子》

https://www.zdic.net/hans/弗

意思是泉水噴湧的樣子

如果採用跟韓非子一書同樣的意思

那就是智者說話跟泉水噴湧一樣，那意思就完全不同了

 

In addition, the word 弗 also has other meanings in Han Feizi's book.

(1) Through "boiling" ( fèi). gush out of spring water

The people of its high-level craftsmen, repairing and curing the instruments of suffering, amassing extravagant wealth, accumulating and waiting for the occasion to profit the farmers. --"Han Fei"

https://www.zdic.net/hans/ph

It means spring water gushing

If you use the same meaning as Han Feizi's book

That is, the wise man speaks the same as the spring, and the meaning is completely different.

 

 

帛書《老子》原文：「恆使民無知無欲也。使夫知不敢，弗爲而已，則無不治矣"

 

跟道德經原文不同

《道德經》原文：「常使民無知、無欲，使夫智者不敢爲也。爲無爲，則無不治。」

 

從帛書老子原文可以看出，老子在同一段文章當中使用了『無』『不』『弗』皆代表不同的意義，因此『弗』被假借為『不』並非表示『弗』的原意就是『不』

 

所以『弗』在這邊的意思是『知道什麼該做』

『弗言』是『知道什麼該說』

The original text of the "Lao Tzu" in the silk book: "  恆使民無知無欲也。使夫知不敢，弗爲而已，則無不治矣"

Different from the  text of Tao Te Ching

The original text of "Tao Te Ching": "   常使民無知、無欲，使夫智者不敢爲也。爲無爲，則無不治 "

 

It can be seen from the  text of Lao Tzu in the Silk Book that Lao Tzu used "無", "不" and "弗" in the same passage to represent different meanings. Therefore, the borrowed of "弗" as "不" does not mean that the original meaning of "弗" is "不. 

So "弗" here means "know what to do"

"弗言" means "know what to say"

 

知道的人不亂說

亂說的人不知道

 

Those who know don't talk nonsense

nonsense people don't know

 

不亂說，翻譯成英文只能是『don't talk nonsense』

 

『不亂』說, it can only be translated into English as "don't talk nonsense"

 

弗，綁好（柴薪），使（柴薪）不亂

弗, tie up (firewood) so that (firewood) doesn't mess up

 

不亂說，don't mess up in talking

 

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by awaken

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[awaken]

7 hours ago, Cobie said:

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I have no interest in the 韓非子。 

 

 

 

韓非子是和老子的時代比較接近的人，所以看得到類似的用法

 

Han Feizi is a person close to Laozi's time, so he similar usage with LaoZi.

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