ch 3 - a totalitarian dark place?

[Cobie]

 

DDJ Ch 3 by Henricks (https://terebess.hu/english/tao/henricks.html#Kap03 ):

1. By not elevating the worthy, you bring it about that people will not compete. 
2. By not valuing goods that are hard to obtain, you bring it about that people will not act like thieves. 
3. By not displaying the desirable you bring it about that people will not be confused. 

4. Therefore, in the government of the Sage: 
5. He empties their minds, 
6. An fills their bellies. 
7. Weakens their ambition, 
8. And strengthens their bones. 

9. He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires. 
10. If he can bring it about that those with knowledge simply do not dare to act, 
11. Then there is nothing that will not be in order.

Edited January 18, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

On 08/05/2022 at 10:20 PM, Cobie said:

… the Sage: 
5. He empties their minds, …
7. Weakens their ambition, …

9. He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires. …

Is this not interfering with nature which would be rather un-daoist ?

 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[Daniel]

Maybe it's all about #11: bringing order, which requires interference.

[thelerner]

I get the feeling this is highly studied by communist party leaders. 

As a personal code, its got benefits, but as a strategy of ruling people it can turn Orwellian. 

[Cobie]

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Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited May 20, 2022 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

The Tao Te Ching indeed contains some parts that could be called 'legalist' (the ancient Chinese doctrine of authoritarian government). So not everything in the Tao Te Ching fits in well with modern democratic principles.

 

Further as a result of technological developments people no longer live in natural circumstances while their natural instinctual reactions are mostly the same as they were in prehistoric times, hence the misfit. Following ones natural impulses without some form of self-restrain no longer works out well in our technological world (and this problem already manifested way back in Lao tzu's own time). See also chapter 80 that suggests rolling back unnecessary technological developments.

Edited May 9, 2022 by wandelaar

[treebuffalo]

On 5/8/2022 at 1:20 PM, Cobie said:

5. He empties their minds, 
6. An fills their bellies. 
7. Weakens their ambition, 
8. And strengthens their bones. 

9. He constantly causes the people to be without knowledge and without desires. 
 

It's un-insightful translations like this which inspire a more intuitive interpretation: 

 

Knowing this, wise rulers fill bellies over minds and strengthen bones over ambition. 

They free people from desire with simplicity, 

and protect them from hawkers of knowledge that seek to complicate things.

 

[Cobie]

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Edited November 26, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

6 hours ago, treebuffalo said:

Knowing this, wise rulers fill bellies over minds and strengthen bones over ambition. 

They free people from desire with simplicity, 

and protect them from hawkers of knowledge that seek to complicate things.

Possibly stretching it a bit seeing the characters?

 

[line 4]

Knowing this, wise rulers 

是以 聖人 之 治 也 shi4yi3 sheng4ren2 zhi1 zhi4 ye3  < hence | wise person | his | rule >  

 

[line 5-6]

fill bellies over minds and 

虛 亓 心  xu1 qi2 xin1 < empty | their | mind > 

實 亓 腹  shi2 qi2 fu4 < fill | their | belly >

 

[line 7-8]

strengthen bones over ambition. 

弱 亓 志  ruo4 qi2 zhi4 < weaken | their | ambition >

強 亓 骨  qiang2 qi2 gu3 < strengthen | their | bones >

 

[line 9]

They free people from desire with simplicity, and 

恆 使 民 无 知，无 欲 也  heng2 shi3 min2 wu2 zhi1, wu2 yu4 ye3 

< habitual | cause | people | lack | knowledge | lack | desire >

 

[line 10-11]

protect them from hawkers of knowledge that seek to complicate things.

使 夫 知，不 敢 

shi3 fu1 zhi1，bu4 gan3 

< cause | men | knowledge | not to | dare >

 

弗 為 而 已 則 

fu2 wei2 er2 yi3 ze2

<(GP, implicit OBJ) not … this | do | but | stop | (GP, VB conjunction. ‘If’ VB - phrase 1. ‘then’ VB - phrase 2. ) if … then >

 

无 不 治 矣 

wu2 bu4 zhi4 yi3

< nothing | not | rule; solve (difficulties) | (GP)>

 

~~~

Edited May 12, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

On 12/05/2022 at 5:56 PM, treebuffalo said:

It's un-insightful translations like this …

Henricks is a highly regarded Sinologist.

 Are you sure you have the credentials to call his translation “un-insightful”?  
 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[treebuffalo]

I love Henricks, especially his notes. Its specifically his lack of insightful translation which allows me the freedom to interpret. It's harder to interpret on top of other interpretations like Le Guin or Derek Lin. 

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Henricks is a highly regarded Sinologist.

 Are you sure you have the credentials to call his translation “un-insightful”? 

 

I would say treebuffalo reinterpreted the chapter with regards to the needs of our time.

 

Sinologically inaccurate maybe, but the advantage is that it becomes more practically useful this way. 

 

Then again, who is to say that this isn't exactly what Laotzu had in mind.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Michael Sternbach

[Cobie]

11 hours ago, treebuffalo said:

… Le Guin …

LeGuin is one of the 4 writers Paul Golding criticised in his book.

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

On 13/05/2022 at 12:55 AM, Michael Sternbach said:

… Sinologically inaccurate maybe, but … who is to say that this isn't exactly what Laotzu had in mind.

 If you are going to ignore the characters, then ‘blah, blah, gurgle, fart’ will do as a translation; and “who is to say that this isn't exactly what Laozi had in mind”, he is not here anymore to comment.  
 

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

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Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[awaken]

「不尚賢，使民不爭；不貴難得之貨，使民不為盜；不見可欲，使民心不

亂；是以聖人之治，虛其心、實其腹、弱其志、強其骨。常使民無知無欲

，使夫智者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。」

 

 

不崇尚賢德的名號，使人民不鬥爭；

不尊貴難得的東西，使人民不偷盜；

不現出貪欲，使人民的心不紛亂。

聖人治國，放空了心靈，

填飽了肚子，柔弱了意志，強韌了筋骨，

守著恆常之道，使人民不執著、不貪欲，

使自作聰明的人不敢有所作偽，

回到不為什麼目的的作為，

自自然然就能達到無不治的目的。

 

 

Do not honor the name of virtue, so that the people do not struggle;

What is not precious and rare, so that the people will not steal;

Do not show greed, so that the hearts of the people are not confused.

Saints rule the country, emptied their minds,

Filled the stomach, softened the will, strengthened the muscles and bones,

Keep the constant path, so that the people are not attached or greedy,

So that the smart man dare not make falsehoods,

Back to doing for no purpose,

Naturally, it can achieve the purpose of inexorable cure.

 

https://jameshung2010.pixnet.net/blog/post/36348571-※【老子道德經第三章】∞

 

各位說得很好

我沒什麼意見

 

Well said everyone

I have no opinion

 

 

[Cobie]

5 hours ago, awaken said:

「不尚賢，使民不爭；不貴難得之貨，使民不為盜；不見可欲，使民心不

亂；是以聖人之治，虛其心、實其腹、弱其志、強其骨。常使民無知無欲

，使夫智者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。」

 

You previously advised to use the “silk book” 
https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53587-paul-golding/?do=findComment&comment=981960

 

Looking at  http://www.daoisopen.com/downloads/CC3.pdf  ,  seems you use the Wang Bi characters.
 

Why not use 馬王堆帛書 (Mawangdui silk book)?  Text B is complete.

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Cobie

[Michael Sternbach]

12 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

“Practically useful” it may be, but is it what the DDJ characters are saying?
 

 If you don’t find what Laozi says “practically useful”, then you could always write your own book. 

 

I could and I do. 

 

Much of what the old Daoists left for posterity is practically useful (in my view), but when we come across a piece that presents a difficulty, why not modify it a bit? As long as we don't pretend that it's the original version, necessarily!

 

With the words of Bruce Lee:

 

Absorb what is useful,

discard what is useless,

add what is uniquely your own.

 

Now that's applied Daoism for you! 😊

Edited May 13, 2022 by Michael Sternbach

[Cobie]

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Edited November 23, 2022 by Cobie

[Michael Sternbach]

5 hours ago, awaken said:

「不尚賢，使民不爭；不貴難得之貨，使民不為盜；不見可欲，使民心不

亂；是以聖人之治，虛其心、實其腹、弱其志、強其骨。常使民無知無欲

，使夫智者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。」

 

 

不崇尚賢德的名號，使人民不鬥爭；

不尊貴難得的東西，使人民不偷盜；

不現出貪欲，使人民的心不紛亂。

聖人治國，放空了心靈，

填飽了肚子，柔弱了意志，強韌了筋骨，

守著恆常之道，使人民不執著、不貪欲，

使自作聰明的人不敢有所作偽，

回到不為什麼目的的作為，

自自然然就能達到無不治的目的。

 

 

Do not honor the name of virtue, so that the people do not struggle;

What is not precious and rare, so that the people will not steal;

Do not show greed, so that the hearts of the people are not confused.

Saints rule the country, emptied their minds,

Filled the stomach, softened the will, strengthened the muscles and bones,

Keep the constant path, so that the people are not attached or greedy,

So that the smart man dare not make falsehoods,

Back to doing for no purpose,

Naturally, it can achieve the purpose of inexorable cure.

 

https://jameshung2010.pixnet.net/blog/post/36348571-※【老子道德經第三章】∞

 

各位說得很好

我沒什麼意見

 

Well said everyone

I have no opinion

 

 

 

This version reads quite differently. More like the Sage is supposed to lead by example. Sounds more Daoist in spirit to me.

 

Perhaps it's a viable translation of the original text's ancient Chinese.

Edited May 13, 2022 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I am only interested in the oldest available transcript. 

 

I am also interested in the original versions of the texts I study. But only to see if they contain something valuable that was lost in transition.

 

If a later version or interpretation happens to appeal to me more, I am all happy with it! 😊