The Power of Chi movie

[dwai]

Very impressive documentary involving some very high level pro athletes testing some skilled taiji people (Lyoto Machida, Febricio Verdum to name a few, trying their hands with Adam Mizner, Master Zhu etc). I watched it and loved it. 

 

https://thepowerofchi.com/
 

Will be a good watch for all the IMA bums as well as the skeptical bums (any Fajin Project members here)? 

PS: Narrated by Morgan Freeman himself 

 

PPS: they have a promo for usd $4.95 to watch the movie. Well worth it, imho. 

Edited May 13, 2022 by dwai

[dwai]

An amusing development. The Fajin Project fb group is abuzz with discussions about how these athletes were paid large sums of money to prop up a propaganda video by Adam Mizner’s Chelas 😂

 

And most of them haven’t even watched the movie!! One worthy says, “I don’t want to watch it….even if I’m paid to do so!”

Edited May 15, 2022 by dwai

[doc benway]

Maybe we should combine this thread with the who believes video thread? 

😆

[Vajra Fist]

I've come to like Mizner a lot. I've always thought he came across as smarmy, but from my few interactions with him online, I've found him to be sincere and humble. 

 

He doesn't put other systems down and say his is the best - he lets his art speak on his behalf.

 

I also like how thick skinned he is. Other internal arts teachers constantly say how they're above pettiness, but then get triggered by comments online, and end up in long arguments. 

 

I think that's the thing I find most impressive about him, above his clear martial skill. Despite the amount of crap that gets thrown at him, he's still able to take a step back from it.

 

That said, this whole thing film felt a bit cringe - like an early noughties docu-series, in the same vein as 'Mind, Body and Kickass Moves'.

 

For an hour it was mostly just Mizner demonstrating his skill against various athletes and sportsmen. I'm still not sure if it was an extended advertorial, but it certainly felt that way at times. I'm still not all the way through it, having to watch it in short sections.

 

To my mind, it played too much as 'chi' being a mystical substance. I'm not a sceptic in this regards, but I'm 99% of what Mizner does is due to a highly refined technique, rather than any magical force.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[forestofclarity]

4 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

I'm still not sure if it was an extended advertorial, but it certainly felt that way at times.

 

If so, I would find it more convincing if some one who practiced his program X or whatever could demonstrate what they learned. Presuming Mizner is legit (and I have no reason to think otherwise at this point, despite his marketing), if whatever he is showing is possible only after many years of full time practice, then it seems that engaging in seminars and online programs would be a waste of time/money. 

 

4 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

To my mind, it played too much as 'chi' being a mystical substance. I'm not a sceptic in this regards, but I'm 99% of what Mizner does is due to a highly refined technique, rather than any magical force.

 

That's how it seems to me with most of these martial applications--- a form of soft body physics. 

[dwai]

7 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

To my mind, it played too much as 'chi' being a mystical substance. I'm not a sceptic in this regards, but I'm 99% of what Mizner does is due to a highly refined technique, rather than any magical force.

What if this “chi” thing not a substance at all but the result of a process?
 

Tbh my tai chi brothers and I can do most of what I’ve seen mizner do on video (there might be much more he’s capable of that we don’t know about), and  I’ve not met him in person, nor has anyone else I work out with on a regular basis.
 

The way we “activate” it is using a feeling of flow internally, and a field externally. What is this flow? We call it qi. Is it a consequence of setting one’s body and mind up in a certain way? Yes.

 

Does that sense of flow internally feel like an energetic thing? Yes. 
 

Is there a palpable field effect as a result? Yes. 
 

Can we manipulate that? Yes.

 

That hopping thing that he does (sticking or Na Jin), I’ve heard him and other yang style teachers describe it in various ways, such as maintain sung and ting and it will happen, etc.

 

My teacher taught us that it is done by expanding out and then pulling the field of the opponent/recipient back towards us. It is very easy to demonstrate step-by-step, and harder to write about. The consequence is that the recipient will feel like they’re relying on the issuer for balance. Like the center of gravity of the recipient has been transferred over to the issuer. So, when the issuer moves, the recipient is compelled to move. Whatever the issuer does to with their own body and intention, reflects in the body of the recipient. 

 

A few weeks back, our teacher who is ~ 120 lbs in weight, tapped me in the chest lightly, lifted my body up physically as a consequence, which hit another person standing behind me and slammed his body into the wall. To me it didn’t feel like anything at all - felt his fingertips on my chest, and like I was a feather floating in a breeze. In fact, I didn’t even feel it when I slammed into my friend behind me. To my friend, It felt like he was hit by a 200+ lb body traveling at fast. What kind sophisticated technique can make that possible? 

Edited May 15, 2022 by dwai

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

7 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

I'm still not sure if it was an extended advertorial, but it certainly felt that way at times.

They have a course based on the movie! So it might well be one 

https://thepowerofchi.com/products/power-of-chi-monthly-course

[Vajra Fist]

.

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[Michael Sternbach]

I found this impressive too...

 

 

[Vajra Fist]

On 15/05/2022 at 3:56 PM, Pak_Satrio said:

They have a course based on the movie! So it might well be one 

 

For what it's worth, Mizner said that he's not affiliated with them, and some of his students are upset that they're using his demonstrations to sell their own course. 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

4 hours ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

For what it's worth, Mizner said that he's not affiliated with them, and some of his students are upset that they're using his demonstrations to sell their own course. 

 

Thanks for the clarification! So who is teaching the course then?

[Vajra Fist]

7 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Thanks for the clarification! So who is teaching the course then?

 

No idea! According to a reddit post it's a guy called Doug, who is a student of someone called Master Zhu. Beyond that I'm not sure.

 

There's an interesting video here, that offers one possible explanation for what's happening. Enjoyable watch, even if you disagree - I think someone likened it to a magician revealing stage secrets. 

 

 

[dwai]

45 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

No idea! According to a reddit post it's a guy called Doug, who is a student of someone called Master Zhu. Beyond that I'm not sure.

Master Zhu is a very advanced teacher. From what I’ve heard, he used to be the teacher of the famous Master Shi Ming (of the pbs documentary fame). 

Quote

 

There's an interesting video here, that offers one possible explanation for what's happening. Enjoyable watch, even if you disagree - I think someone likened it to a magician revealing stage secrets. 

 

 

I’ve seen such criticism of “woo woo” before. There certainly are elements of biomechanics involved, but there’s more to the story than just that. The chi stuff works irrespective of whether the recipient is muscling or not. It works more dramatically with people using extreme physical strength because of the very reasons shown in the video above. 
 

But consider this for a moment — why would top level pro athletes allow themselves to be shown up as mentally deficient fools if things were that simple? 
 

Yeah one could certainly argue that they were paid handsomely, or worse, they are stupid, or something to that order. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by dwai

[Vajra Fist]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

But consider this for a moment — why would top level pro athletes allow themselves to be shown up as mentally deficient fools if things were that simple? 

 

Because, I think sensing and affecting someone's structure, pushing them off balance, does indeed work. It's perfectly good tai chi, and it requires real skill to do as well as Mizner does it. 

 

But I don't believe that what's happening is down to a mystical 'qi force', but rather careful and sophisticated use of the internal structure to control an opponent. 

 

That said, I do believe in qigong, and the therapeutic effect of such exercises. I just feel that internal arts applications are better described within the context of biomechanics.

 

Edit - I will add that I'm willing to be wrong on this

Edited May 18, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[RobB]

Also worth noting that Rob Poynton, the person in the video posted above, had extensive experience in Tai Chi before moving on to Systema (which battles its own accusations of 'no touch' woo-woo!). Surely part of the path is working through appearances, discerning real from unreal? Adding layers of mystical nonsense benefits no-one apart from the person trying to mystify.

[dwai]

42 minutes ago, RobB said:

Also worth noting that Rob Poynton, the person in the video posted above, had extensive experience in Tai Chi before moving on to Systema (which battles its own accusations of 'no touch' woo-woo!). Surely part of the path is working through appearances, discerning real from unreal? Adding layers of mystical nonsense benefits no-one apart from the person trying to mystify.

People see “motive”, I see language. Also, all respect to Rob Poynton, I don’t see in him what I see in more advanced practitioners.
 

Systema seems like Russian tai chi really, with some ground grappling thrown into the mix. 

 

What is “woo”? Anything people can’t understand and looks supernatural. 

[RobB]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

People see “motive”, I see language.

 

I am afraid I have no idea what this means. My point, certainly poorly expressed, is that active debunking serves us all. Lots of us, certainly myself, started off wanting to be ninjas or acquire special powers or 'see beyond the mundane' or similar. Further down the tracks, I appreciate those teachers who keep it real - especially where self-defence or healing are concerned. Does it work, can you test it? Can you do it? Can you teach them to do it? Maybe that is your situation - that's great and I'm happy for you. However, there are large numbers of shysters out there actively feeding off on the initial quest for wonder and short-cuts to power. In my view, people like Rob, who I'm pretty sure would not claim mastery of any sort, are acting in the best interests of the community in providing a balancing viewpoint and helping equip people to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

 

And ultimately, when the teacher passes all of those tests, when all the debunking is done and they're still standing - well, isn't there something genuinely interesting going on there?

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 minutes ago, RobB said:

 

I am afraid I have no idea what this means. My point, certainly poorly expressed, is that active debunking serves us all. Lots of us, certainly myself, started off wanting to be ninjas or acquire special powers or 'see beyond the mundane' or similar. Further down the tracks, I appreciate those teachers who keep it real - especially where self-defence or healing are concerned. Does it work, can you test it? Can you do it? Can you teach them to do it? Maybe that is your situation - that's great and I'm happy for you. However, there are large numbers of shysters out there actively feeding off on the initial quest for wonder and short-cuts to power. In my view, people like Rob, who I'm pretty sure would not claim mastery of any sort, are acting in the best interests of the community in providing a balancing viewpoint and helping equip people to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

 

And ultimately, when the teacher passes all of those tests, when all the debunking is done and they're still standing - well, isn't there something genuinely interesting going on there?

 

 

At the very least Rob should watch the whole movie and do a proper debunking, not just from a short trailer where you can't see everything properly.

[RobB]

19 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

At the very least Rob should watch the whole movie and do a proper debunking, not just from a short trailer where you can't see everything properly.

 

Why? If I've seen five questionable things in a five minute trailer, why would my view on that be substantiated or otherwise by whether or not I've watched the rest of the movie? Anyway, I have no dog in this fight - I think its a good thing that people like Rob are prepared to share their considerable experience for the benefit of others - no-one else has to agree :-)

 

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

15 minutes ago, RobB said:

 

Why? If I've seen five questionable things in a five minute trailer, why would my view on that be substantiated or otherwise by whether or not I've watched the rest of the movie? Anyway, I have no dog in this fight - I think its a good thing that people like Rob are prepared to share their considerable experience for the benefit of others - no-one else has to agree :-)

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that people with expertise should do the debunking. However they should do a proper debunking based on the whole subject matter.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that people with expertise should do the debunking. However they should do a proper debunking based on the whole subject matter.

I think it is unwise to dismiss something purely because of personal biases or knowledge limitations. Set aside chi for a moment; there’s more to fascial web connection and manipulation than biomechanics can explain. There is the role of the mind as well, in terms of the effect when it is focused on or away from a particular point during a hand-trapping type of interaction (which is what push hands is). 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

50 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think it is unwise to dismiss something purely because of personal biases or knowledge limitations. Set aside chi for a moment; there’s more to fascial web connection and manipulation than biomechanics can explain. There is the role of the mind as well, in terms of the effect when it is focused on or away from a particular point during a hand-trapping type of interaction (which is what push hands is). 

Yup, I don't agree with what he says, which is why if he watched the entire movie before making his analysis he might say something different

[Vajra Fist]

Unfortunately, the weird culty vibe of this film, and attempts to dress up good, teachable technique in vague and mystical language, really put me off.

 

In fact I would go so far as to say that it made me into a sceptic, whereas before I would have considered myself a believer.

[Vajra Fist]

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

There is the role of the mind as well

 

To the extent there is anything supernormal about taiji application, it is here. The ability of a master to be able to soak the awareness through not only their own bodies, but also to an extent the body of an opponent, is beyond what is normally thought possible. That warrants further research and study.

 

Unfortunately the film used language like: "Some 3,000 years ago, the Chinese discovered how to unleash the force," and elsewhere referenced Jedis and Star Wars.

 

That sort of language shuts down enquiry. I want to know what is really going on - how much force is being generated and through what mechanisms in the body, how is it he is able to sense so accurately structural imbalances of another person by just putting a hand on their arm? 

 

Nowadays people like Shinzen Young are doing so much good for meditation disciplines by opening them up to neuroscience. Brain imaging is able to map consistently what jhanas look like and detect clearly what it looks like when someone moves to up and down through the jhanas.

 

It's time we did the same thing for taiji. There's truly something special, perhaps even miraculous about what people like Mizner can do. Let's study it, and understand it. Not use the concepts of the past and effectively say its the power of the holy spirit that is moving people. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Vajra Fist

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

22 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

Unfortunately the film used language like: "Some 3,000 years ago, the Chinese discovered how to unleash the force," and elsewhere referenced Jedis and Star Wars.

 

That sort of language shuts down enquiry. I want to know what is really going on - how much force is being generated and through what mechanisms in the body, how is it he is able to sense so accurately structural imbalances of another person by just putting a hand on their arm? 

 

This sort of language attracts the common person who don't use big science words daily. They still have to make a profit to pay Morgan Freeman, so have to use whatever they can to make sales. I don't really blame them, and if it gets more of the average Joe interested into all of this, then why not use it?

 

Also you haven't watched the entire film, how can you say that all your questions aren't answered?

 

Edit: I just realised you actually have the movie. I will leave the last sentence there for a well deserved roasting.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Pak_Satrio