Neidan, Dan Dao, Golden Elixir, Jade Pill, Neigong, Qigong - Which is right? Which is wrong?

[Cheshire Cat]

On 18/5/2022 at 2:22 PM, awaken said:

Cultivation is originally a return to nature. Maybe you have seen too many bragging about the masters of transfer method and Qigong, so don’t take those bragging things seriously.

 

The ultimate goal of Taoist practice is to liberate life and death. As far as I am concerned, it is to explore the mysteries of the univers

 

 

氣功大師很愛吹牛，最大的牛皮就是丹可以幫人治病，這絕對是謊

 

Qigong masters love to brag. The biggest lie is that Dan can help people heal. This is definitely a lie.

 

 

Yes, I've heard many extraordinary claims. But not only qigong and neigong schools: there are many methods around.

Sometimes it's possible to get a minor accomplishment like curing a minor illness or psychic powers, but it always comes with a price in terms of physical and mental health, in my experience.

 

I tend to be very skeptic.

[awaken]

On 2022/5/18 at 11:12 PM, damdao said:

 

Alchemical classics speak about healing and rejuvenation, so or the imposture is the root of neidan or something is missing in translation.

And by translation, I am not speaking about translation between Chinese and English but between the ancient methods and the contemporary approach.

Something is missing, otherwise it is not possible to deny the healing aspects of neidan methods. In fact, qigong and yangshen are derived from neidan theory and goals.

 

丹經講的是治療自己，不是幫別人治療

 

我已經看過很多丹經了，沒有聽過有幫人治療的丹經

 

只有氣功大師的謊話才會這樣說

 

The alchemy is about healing yourself(the person who cultivate ), not healings others(the people who not cultivate).

I have read many alchemy scriptures, but I have never heard of alchemy scriptures that  heal people who don't cultivate

Only some  qigong masters would tell such lies

[Cobie]

3 hours ago, awaken said:

… alchemy is about healing yourself(the person who cultivate ), not healings others(the people who not cultivate). …

Exactly. 
 

 

Edited May 20, 2022 by Cobie

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

 

沒有什麼是不可能的。

我們作為增壓波形存在。

通過成熟，我們成長。

此生無異於屬靈真理的更深重生。

人類沒有什麼可失去的。

我們正處於一種渴望的精神召喚之中，它將消除通往無限本身的障礙。

我們與其他講故事的人的對話導致了超吠陀意識的凝聚。

現實總是充滿了講故事的人，他們的大腦被星塵打開了。

縱觀歷史，人類一直通過共振級聯與地球互動。

我們是誰？

我們將在偉大的道路上重生在哪裡？

慾望在被排除在外的縫隙中誕生。

你可能在不知不覺中被束縛所統治。

不要讓它破壞你的電路的誕生。

我們再也不能忍受妄想了。

正是在重新定義我們是一致的。

我們正處於業力和苦難的十字路口。

科學是一個常數。

我們自我實現，我們夢想，我們重生。

 

Nothing is impossible.

We exist as waveforms.

Through maturity, we grow.

This life is nothing less than a deeper rebirth of spiritual truth.

Humanity has nothing to lose.

We are offering a special title.

Our conversations with other storytellers trigger a cohesion of Ultra-Vedic consciousness.

Reality is always full of storytellers whose brains are turned on by the stars.

Throughout history, humans have interacted with Earth through hierarchical connections.

where are we?

Where will you be reborn on the great road?

We aspire to be born in underwear outside.

You may be ruled by constraints unknowingly.

Don't destroy the birth of your circuit.

We can no longer afford delusions.

It is in redefining that we are aligned.

We are at the crossroads of karma and harmony.

Science is a world.

We are self-fulfilling, we dream, we are born again.

[Iskote]

This is my point of view. I may well be wrong on any or all points. 

 

The ego's main function is to interact with and assist us to 'perceive' the world of opposites. 
The ego in conjunction with our physical senses can help us interface to and function within the world of opposites. 
Our ego assists us with differentiating things like what is up and what is down, what is east and what is west, what is positive and what is negative, etc.  

When we want to perceive the world of opposites, we employ the ego to assist us. 
The ego also provides us with a separate sense of self within the world of opposites. 
I am not this. I am not that. I am not you. You are not me. 

 

However, when one mistakes the ego for the self, one tends to put much too much emphasis on the ego, and the ego begins to become more and more imbalanced. 
The ego can then become a very overbearing and jealous ruler. 
An imbalanced ego can lead us to believe that only the way we perceive and understand things at any point in time is 'right', and everything else is 'wrong'. 

 

The ego loves to debate. 
The ego wants to always be 'right'. 
The ego takes great delight in singling out and putting down and dismissing that which differs from one's current views and beliefs. 
Such behavior helps the ego to shore up and fortify our beliefs and views. 
Our core beliefs and views form our world view. 
A stable world view gives us comfort, and allows us to function without always having to analyze and question everything. 
A stable world view is a practical tool for helping us function more efficiently in the world of opposites. 
We should keep in mind, however, that our views and beliefs regarding the world of opposites are formed under the 'guidance' of the ego to help provide us with a stable framework, but our beliefs and views are not necessarily at all 'right'. 

Is a chair right or wrong? Is a boat right or wrong? 
A tool is a tool. A tool has a function. A tool's function is to assist us. 
A tool, in itself, has nothing to do with right or wrong. 
Beliefs and views are tools. Their function is to provide us with a more stable framework to function within, in the world of opposites.  

 

We our not our ego. 
The ego is also only a tool. 
The ego is like virtual reality goggles. 
The ego provides us with an interface to a world of opposites. 
The ego is a very imperfect tool, however; and it can easily lead us far astray if we put too much emphasis on the ego.   
We can't function in this world of opposites without our ego, but we should not mistake the ego for the self. 
The ego is a tool employed by the self. 

 

What is the self, then? 
That is a whole other matter. A question no doubt asked by many throughout the ages. 
Can the self exist outside of the world of opposites? 

I do not have an answer for you. 

We employ techniques like meditation to try to find answers to such questions. 
Meditation involves putting aside or turning off the ego, so we can perceive what may be 'outside' of the world of opposites. 
'Outside' is only a term of convenience used to refer to that which can't be described in words.

That which can't be named.

That which can't be conceived of by the ego. 
In such pursuits, the ego only gets in the way, because such a pursuit is outside of the ego's function and usefulness. 

 

Where do you want to focus your energy? 

In shoring up one's world view? 

In negativity and judgement of other views and approaches which differ from your own? 

That seems like a waste of time and energy to me. 

Would it not be more useful if a person focuses their energy on positive pursuits?

On that which has value to them? 

 

Don't tell me what you think is bad. 

Tell me what is you have found to be good based on your own personal experience. 

That is much more useful to me. 

 

I don't have any answers about what is ultimately of value and what is ultimately not of value. 

I can only focus on and pursue that which proves to have value to me at any point in time. 

I am just a human. 

I am not all-seeing and all-knowing. 

I don't have any absolute answers. 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Iskote

[silent thunder]

ego: a potent servant; a horrifying master.

[Iskote]

Let's say a person has an interest in trying to understand through direct personal experience if there is 'something more' that is 'outside of' or which 'underlies' the world of opposites we find our self in. 
'Something more' than the world of dualistic perceptions and dualistic mental conceptions.  
In my understanding, this 'something more' has been described as 'something which is beyond form and formless', and it has been referred to as 'something' that is actually beyond the conception and words and thinking of the ordinary dualistic mind. 
So, in this case, 'beyond form and formless' and similar terms such as 'outside', etc., are only terms of convenience used to refer to 'something' which really can't be described in words. 
It can only be alluded to. 

 

Achieving this special state of awareness beyond the worldly mind of duality is sometimes alluded to in some daoist cultivation systems and in the dao de jing, as well. 
Some might describe this different state of non-dualistic awareness using terms along the lines of 'merging with dao' or 'returning to dao', or in other systems, perhaps 'enlightenment' or 'buddhahood'. 

 

Assuming it is really possible for a person to achieve such a state of non-dualistic awareness, can one be taught or be guided to potentially achieve this special state of awareness? 
I do not know, but some over the centuries have suggested it is possible. 
However, if one really wants to try to achieve such a special state of awareness, one might well consider seeking guidance on how to approach achieving this special state, if possible. 

Of course, there are various systems out there which claim to have such a lofty goal, and which claim to have a method or methods to lead or guide a person towards that goal. 

 

If one were to look for a good potential accomplished teacher of one of these types of systems, what qualities might we look for in such a teacher? 
Would it be reasonable to expect that such a teacher might be less concerned to some noticeable degree with worldly affairs and matters than your average person? 
If so, such a teacher might be expected to not be too overly oriented towards various worldly matters, and less likely to display the sort of negativity and judgmental attitudes and behaviors we see in 'ordinary' people we find everywhere in this dualistic world. 
Such a teacher or guide is still a human being, so we should probably expect at least some degree of normal human behaviors, as well, as such a person which is still here bodily amongst us in this world, and must still function within this dualistic world. 
I am not suggesting that such a person would have to appear to be a 'saint' in any way. Not at all. 
I am suggesting that it seems at least reasonable to me that such a person who has made some real progress in 'cultivation of non-dualistic awareness' of the nature referred to here, might well be expected to be showing at least some noticeable signs of a shift in awareness away from 'ordinary' dualistic thinking and behavior. 

 

If a 'teacher' of such an approach is, instead, showing clear indications through their behavior and actions of being very much involved with ordinary dualistic thinking and behaviors such as showing signs of being noticeably egotistical and judgmental, and displaying a fair amount of negativity, and other similar common dualistic worldly traits, then I personally would be inclined to question if such a person really has anything much to offer to an aspiring student with the goal described here. 
That's just my point of view, however, and I could be wrong about any or all of these musings. 

 

At any rate, it seems to me, that any person who aspires towards trying to shift their awareness away from dualistic thinking and behaviors, might be advised to start working towards loosening the tight grip of the ego as 'commander in chief', and reducing our associated egocentric driven attitudes and behaviors. 
Perhaps this is what some refer to as developing 'de', or virtue. 
Not sure if 'de' is the appropriate term, as there seem to be various interpretations of what 'de' refers to in the dao de jing and in different 'daoist' schools of thought, for example. 
However, working towards developing the qualities of virtue and selflessness seems to me to be a good practical way which any person can employ towards the goal of loosening the tight grip of the ego, and that may well be why various cultivation systems put a lot of emphasis on such. 

 

Anyway, that is just some ideas I personally have about such things. 
At any rate, trying to be more understanding and tolerant of other points of view and approaches in this world, can't really be such a 'bad' thing no matter what a person's goals may be, I would think. 

 

Probably it would be better to state such things in a more concise and simple way, but achieving simplicity in an effective way in all matters is not always so easy to achieve.  

 

All the best in your journeys...

 

[Cheshire Cat]

 What if "non-duality" is nothing more than a philosophical thesis?

 

Who knows?

 

[awaken]

12 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 What if "non-duality" is nothing more than a philosophical thesis?

 

Who knows?

 

 

只要你堅持你目前的練法，這個問題對你來說，永遠只能以問題的形式存在

 

除非你有所覺悟

As long as you stick to your current practice, this problem can only exist in the form of a problem for you.

unless you aware ... 

[Iskote]

18 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

 What if "non-duality" is nothing more than a philosophical thesis?

Who knows?

 

I can't say, but for interest's sake, here is an excerpt from John Blofeld's book, "My Journey in Mystic China", Pages 231 - 237): 

(Thanks to Gerard and Yueya for posting this excerpt in an old thread here several years ago).

--- --- ---

In 1948, on the night before the Lantern Festival,  I unexpectedly encountered a peculiar event. That day I had heard about a 'living immortal' who was staying in the western quarter of the city [Peking, AKA Beijing], and this came as strange news to me. Although I was not certain that there existed such a thing, I really wanted to go meet this so-called immortal. Because I'd heard that this living immortal would soon be going to the south and I might therefore miss my opportunity, I decided then and there to immediately pay him a visit. My servant Old Dzan called a motor car, and as the weather was extremely cold, the open car had a quilt inside to block the wind. The passenger rode as though tucked inside of a Mongolian tent, but the stench was really hard to bear.

 

It took over an hour to reach the immortal's residence. A note on the gate informed visitors that the immortal was in the midst of meditation and no one was permitted to enter. I was freezing to death, and needed to warm myself by a fire. Using this as an excuse, I mustered my courage and went resolutely inside. The gatekeeper told me that it was forbidden to enter, but he didn't dare raise his arm to block me and just stood there agitated, so he did not stop me from walking up to the front door and knocking. A servant opened the door and led me to the parlor to warm myself by the fire. And there before my eyes sat the immortal. He was sitting cross-legged on a mat, meditating. He sat with his back to the door and did not notice that someone had entered the room, and for a long time he just sat there like a lifeless statue.

 

When he finally stood up, turned around, and noticed me, he did not seem the least bit surprised, and said casually, "Good, good! Mr. Pu [Mr. Pu was apparently how John Blofeld was referred to in China], you have arrived." Struck with wonder and curiosity by his prescience, I asked myself how he could possibly know that my name was Pu. Until the moment that I told my servant to find me a cab, even I did not know that today I would be going to visit this complete stranger. After arriving at his residence, I hadn't mentioned my name to anyone there. So the moment I heard him address me as "Mr. Pu," I stood there wide-eyed and slack-jawed with wonder, and felt very astonished.

 

He called for tea, and invited me to sit down. We sat facing one another, with a small tea table between us. I bowed to pay my respects, then said politely, "It's a great honor to meet you, esteemed immortal, and please forgive me for disturbing you. Do you have a few minutes to spare? Otherwise, I could .... "

 

It was obvious that he was not pleased to hear me address him as "immortal," and so he riposted with the question, "Is it possible that there exists such a thing as an immortal in this world? And if indeed there really are such strange creatures, by no means should you mistake me as one of them. In my humble opinion, immortals are characters fabricated by human beings. Regrettably, my humble self is sometimes praised by others as being an immortal. How on earth could there possibly be such a thing? Please, sir, address me as Taoist Dzeng." This white-haired Taoist wasn't wearing Taoist robes. He wore a long padded tunic of blue satin and felt boots. His hair was cut short, like most elderly men in contemporary China. It was clear that he felt great disdain for charlatans posing as immortals. I said, "Although the venerable Mr. Dzeng is not an immortal, you certainly are endowed with great spiritual power. Otherwise, how could you foretell that my name is Pu?" He poured me a cup of tea before replying, "My humble self may perhaps have a small measure of obscure clairvoyant ability. That's a very common result of practicing meditation."

 

"May I inquire, sir, what business brings you here, that you would risk the cold to come to my residence?" At this moment, Taoist Dzeng's expression seemed to carry a tinge of sarcasm. With a straight face I replied, "My humble self has for a long time wished to meet a Taoist adept who is highly accomplished in the mystical arts, and to ask him for guidance regarding which type of practices are most effective for restoring youth and prolonging life." The venerable old Dzeng smiled and said, "'If you don't believe in the teaching, you cannot obtain its benefits.” How can I possibly explain this in words? Ha-ha, Mr. Pu has climbed famous mountains, and has received teachings from many great Buddhist monks and Taoist adepts, so why would you find it worthwhile to ask for guidance from my humble self? I daresay, sir, that you must be familiar with some words of advice from the Tao Teh Ching. The general meaning of this advice is that visiting famous mountains and traveling afar to seek teachings about the Tao is not nearly as useful as staying home, shutting the door, and examining your own mind." When he finished speaking, he gazed steadily into my eyes, as though concentrating the full power of his attention on making me understand.

 

At that moment, a very peculiar sensation suddenly arose within me. All of a sudden, he, I, and everything in the space between us, while still retaining their external appearance, seemed to condense into an inseparable singularity, as though we had suddenly dissolved into one amorphous entity. This dimension of existence gave me a feeling a great joy. For a short while, my mind was mesmerized and my spirit was lost, but at the same time, I knew that this condition was definitely not a distorted fantasy. The strange thing was that although I felt very happy and at ease in that state, I also felt that I could not withstand this man's spiritual power much longer, and that if I did not soon break free of his gaze, I might never return to the normal world, and so I quickly lowered my eyes and terminated that mysterious sensation.

 

Just then, a group of visitors arrived to see him. They seemed to have come by previous appointment. Therefore, I did not wish to disturb him any longer, bade him farewell, and took my leave. A few days later I heard that the venerable Dzeng had already departed by train for the south. I had missed the opportunity to inquire in detail about several strange matters. For example, how had he known my surname? How had he known that I visited many famous mountains, and that I'd sought teachings about Buddhist doctrine and Taoist mysteries from numerous renowned masters? Relatively speaking, these few matters were not very important. Before we'd met, it was possible that the old man had casually heard that there was a Westerner named Pu living in Peking who had a strong interest in Taoism, and possibly he'd heard people discussing my appearance and other things about me. Although this was only a slight possibility, it was also not impossible. But Old Dzeng had definitely caused me to experience the phenomenon known as "myriad objects uniting into one whole," and for a very short time I had entered into this mysterious dimension.

 

I'd like to discuss in more detail the meaning of this so-called “uniting as one whole" phenomenon, both from the perspective of Taoist reaching as well as modern science. When Old Dzeng fixed his penetrating gaze on me, I definitely and very clearly perceived the inseparable and boundless nature of all phenomena. That is to say, my perception at the time was that even though all objects had their own separate relative identity, at the same time they were also all completely unified as one primordial entity. That of course defies logic, and is a principle that lies beyond rational debate. I had long ago learned from my Buddhist and Taoist studies about the relative nature of reality, and that only through a higher level of wisdom could one really understand the true nature of phenomena. And yet, in only a few fleeting moments, Old Dzeng had given me a direct experiential perception of the fundamental nature of reality.

--- --- ---

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Iskote

[Cheshire Cat]

The brain can fabricate many different states, including the feeling of being one with everything.

Why should any particular state of consciousness be the fundamental nature of reality? 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

真眼識真假

 

Real eyes realise real lies

[awaken]

6 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

The brain can fabricate many different states, including the feeling of being one with everything.

Why should any particular state of consciousness be the fundamental nature of reality? 

 

既然有疑問，就應該去面對現實，處理疑問

而不是活在自己製造的迷宮當中

 

對於古人的經典，我也是帶著疑問

但是我願意努力去實驗各種可能性

我不會滿足於活在自己的想像當中

 

祝你早日發現真相

 

Since there are doubts, we should face the reality and deal with the doubts

rather than living in a labyrinth of our own making

I also have doubts about the classics of the ancients

But I am willing to try my best to experiment with the possibilities

I will not be satisfied with living in my imagination

[Master Logray]

7 hours ago, Cheshire Cat said:

The brain can fabricate many different states, including the feeling of being one with everything.

Why should any particular state of consciousness be the fundamental nature of reality? 

 

It may not be fabrication.  In infant stage, human do not have an ego or identity yet.  We do not know what is inside and what is outside, which part is our body or is not.  Meditation is a way of regression to earliest point in life.  So we remember being united, not fabricated, perhaps enhanced a bit.

[Iskote]

On 5/24/2022 at 12:20 AM, Cheshire Cat said:

The brain can fabricate many different states, including the feeling of being one with everything.

Why should any particular state of consciousness be the fundamental nature of reality? 

 

Assuming John Blofeld did not make this story up, John Blofeld gave his interpretation of what he experienced. With the help of the 'Taoist Dzeng', he apparently entered into a non-dualistic state of awareness for a short period of time. 

 

The ego revolts. "This is heresy", says the ego. 

"What could possibly be which the ego cannot conceive of?"

"That surely must be nonsense", says the ego.  

 

Some people who want very much to try to find answers to such questions, may seek out various methods to try to find such answers. 

Some people may spend a good portion of their whole life practicing methods to try to get such answers. 

Throughout history some say they have found answers. 

Who can say whether any really have, or not? 

 

Each person may pursue that which seems to hold value for them. 

In the grand scheme of things, are such pursuits ultimately of value, or is it all just folly?

I couldn't say. 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Iskote

[awaken]

沒有練到真正入定的人，是無法想像什麼是真正的入定

 

我用一個講了很多次的現象

 

就是睡眠

 

正常人的睡眠，睡著了就失去知覺了

 

練到三階段陽生的人，睡著了，只是身體睡著，裡面卻非常的清醒

 

對這樣的人來說，睡覺就像是下沉，並沒有失去意識

 

如果一切的經驗都是大腦製造的，請問大腦如何製造這種即使睡著也無法失去覺知的狀態？

 

Those who have not reached true deep jhana cannot imagine what true jhana is.

I use a phenomenon that I have talked about many times

just sleep

Normal sleep, when you fall asleep you lose consciousness

A person who has reached the third stage of Yang Sheng falls asleep,  his body is asleep, but he is very awake inside.

For such people, sleeping is like sinking and not losing consciousness

If all experience is created by the brain, how does the brain create this state of being unable to lose consciousness even when asleep?

 

要練到真正深入的禪定

大腦都是暫時停止作用的

你沒有停止大腦的作用

你是不可能達到真正的禪定

 

To reach really deep jhana

The brain must be temporarily shut down

if you doesn't stop the brain

it's impossible for you to achieve true jhana

 

 

一個真正的修行者

必然可以覺察自我的存在與否

也明白只有自我止息

才是修行的開始

 

a true cultivator

must be aware of the existence of self

Also understand that only self-stop

This is the beginning of jhana

 

當然，我知道這裡有很多人的目的只是為了健康

或者為了能夠發氣的超能力

那這樣就與修行的目的不同了

Of course, I know there are a lot of people here whose purpose is just to be healthy

Or for super powers that can generate Qi

That would be different from the purpose of cultivation.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by awaken

[Iskote]

All anyone can do is find some practice that seems to bring some results for them in relation to their goals, if they have an interest in such things. Just depends on what any given person's goals are. 
Doing some research, if possible, and using your best judgement is probably always a good idea as there are of course fakes and unqualified people misrepresenting them self as 'experts' and 'masters' out there, offering different things, but if the teacher seems reasonably legit and the practice seems to be giving good results for you, in relation to your goals, can that really be so bad? 

 

There are various different approaches out there, and some may seem to be conflicting, with some people saying do it this way, and others saying, do not do it that way. Which way is right, then? Does the teacher seem to embody at least some of the qualities of what they say their system/method offers? Does the teacher seem to demonstrate that they have some real accomplishment in what they are offering? That has seemed to be a good guideline for me anyway, when evaluating any given teacher. 

In the end,  using your best judgement and going with what works for you and not worrying too much about naysayers, would seem to be a good practical approach. 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Iskote