Benjamin Hoff's "Tao Te Ching"

[Cobie]

If the brush was used alongside the Guodian method, then likely the meanings stayed the same, not?

[Cobie]

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

https://www.cuhk.edu.hk/ics/journal/articles/v59p253.pdf

 

yes, I am giving up on this. I stick to the transcripts DIO/Henricks.

[wandelaar]

Hoff is talking about the pre-writing brush characters, so to what characters is he referring? 

[Cobie]

Hoff talks about pre ‘writing-brush’ characters. E.g. the characters the Guodian was written in. They were not written with a brush. In the preview Hoff mentions they were written with some other implement that could easily make circles.

 

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

14 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

… the way the text has been carried on and read throughout the ages is more important than … the author's true intent 

What’s “important” can be rather personal. My only interest is the oldest available transcripts.  
 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

(From the preview) chapters deleted by Hoff:

5

36

45

58

80

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

Did not Wang B write with a brush?

 

In the preview Hoff says: 

- he translated from the pre-brush characters

- he uses the Wang B text

 

Legend has it that the brush was invented by Meng Tian (? - 210 BC)

Wang B (226-249 AD)

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

59 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Legend has it that the brush was invented by Meng Tian (? - 210 BC)

 

Yes - legends... Why not go by the facts?

[Cobie]

Just now, wandelaar said:

Yes - legends... Why not go by the facts?

I couldn’t find any.

[wandelaar]

The facts were mentioned immediately after your quoted legend. I posted the complete passage earlier in this topic where it says after mentioning the legend:

 

Quote

However, primitive painted pottery contains decorative designs painted by tools resembling a brush. Visible stains or brush marks clearly remain in certain places on the pottery. This evidence suggests that the brush may have predated written language itself.

 

[Cobie]

That refers only to “decorative designs”. No mention of it being used for written literature. Fact is that the Guodian was still not written with a brush. 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

I could not find out a date for when they started to use a brush for writing literature.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

It proves that a brush was in existence way before Meng Tian. And how do you know that the Guodian TTC was not written with a brush?

[Cobie]

DIO picture of the Guodian text shows it was not done with a brush. Brushes caused the characters to be changed from round shapes to square shapes. E.g. see etymology 日

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie

[wandelaar]

3 minutes ago, Cobie said:

DIO picture of the Guodian text shows it was not done with a brush.

 

I'm not convinced.

[Cobie]

Just now, wandelaar said:

I'm not convinced.

 

 Have fun researching it.  Please let me know what your findings are.

[Cobie]

12 hours ago, Cobie said:

The pre-brush characters do look very different 

http://www.daoisopen.com/A9toA10Chapters232.html

 

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

Did not Wang B write with a brush?

 

In the preview Hoff says: 

- he translated from the pre-brush characters

- he uses the Wang B text

 

Legend has it that the brush was invented by Meng Tian (? - 210 BC)

Wang B (226-249 AD)

 

 

 

[Cobie]

???
 

Hoff uses the Wang B text, I think Wang B used a brush. So I totally fail to understand what Hoff is going on about with his pre-brush characters. 
 

[wandelaar]

Just now, Cobie said:

???
 

Hoff uses the Wang B text, I think Wang B used a brush. So I totally fail to understand what Hoff is going on about with his pre-brush characters. 
 

 

Yes - that's a strange thing to do, if you are interested in the meanings of the old characters then you should work with manuscripts that contain those old characters. Apparently he thinks the Wang Bi version is somehow superior. Also the very term "pre writing-brush characters" is vague and imprecise.

[Cobie]

Exactly. 

[Cobie]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

… he thinks the Wang Bi version is somehow superior.

Wang B was a Confucian who tried to adapt the DDJ to Confucianism. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 Me thinks Hoff is not really into Daoism. 

[wandelaar]

Hoff is into western Taoism. Or rather he was when he wrote The Tao of Pooh and The Te of Piglet. I'm not so sure where he stands now.

[Cobie]

 PWT, we did that discussion on OD.  
 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cobie