Breath Retention and "Shock" Effect

[Niyamāgraha]

bhastrika followed by antara kumbhaka results in a pressurized building of energy, then a powerful "surge" wherein I occasionally lose my senses for a bit (2-6 seconds)

 

When I come to, I'm slowly involuntarily exhaling while my whole body is buzzing. It's slightly uncomfortable.

The more breath I take in prior, the more likely the surge is to happen.

[dwai]

Do you mean you get knocked out or you are in a state of absorption? 

[Niyamāgraha]

If I'm absorbed, then I've no idea what I'm absorbed with, because there's no sense of "I" -- well this description almost sounds good, but no, no, it's likely the former - just getting knocked out from too much breathing.

Carry on folks, no samadhi as of yet.

[Trunk]

14 hours ago, Niyamāgraha said:

... a pressurized building of energy, then a powerful "surge" ...

 

Exploring extremes in qigong is often counter-productive (injurious, to varying degrees).  It's a very different kinesthetic approach than weight lifting, running... basically all the 'usual' modes of exercise.

 

in qigong, at least what I've observed on this board ... and my own opinion

Kind of a loose concensus is that any pressurizing not past 70%.

 

Also, for breath retention, I do it in a relaxed state.  Meaning, I inhale, hold and relax around the held breath.  That allows alchemy to occur with the breath n' body.  Same on the exhale.  Once I start tensing up, the alchemy stops.

 

just my 3 cents.

best of luck,

Trunk

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Niyamāgraha said:

If I'm absorbed, then I've no idea what I'm absorbed with, because there's no sense of "I" -- well this description almost sounds good, but no, no, it's likely the former - just getting knocked out from too much breathing.

Carry on folks, no samadhi as of yet.

Then you should revisit what you do, along the lines of what @Trunk pointed out. Breath retention should be done in a sequential manner,  after learning how to control the epiglottis to regulate speed of inhale and exhale, etc. 

[Niyamāgraha]

13 hours ago, Trunk said:

 

Also, for breath retention, I do it in a relaxed state.  Meaning, I inhale, hold and relax around the held breath. 

 

Thanks for the tips.

So would you say that you hold the retained breath in the chest or the stomach? Because I feel like I can take a big breath, close the glottis, and then either push my belly out or keep it in the chest.
If I keep it retained around my chest, my heart will become very active (sometimes uncomfortably)

If I keep it retained around my stomach, my navel area will be active and warm.

Thoughts?

[Trunk]

2 hours ago, Niyamāgraha said:

 

Thanks for the tips.

So would you say that you hold the retained breath in the chest or the stomach? Because I feel like I can take a big breath, close the glottis, and then either push my belly out or keep it in the chest.
If I keep it retained around my chest, my heart will become very active (sometimes uncomfortably)

If I keep it retained around my stomach, my navel area will be active and warm.

Thoughts?

 

I hold the breath as low as possible.  Anywhere below the belly button; hui yin is a popular destination.

I don't do much pushing, pulling, clamping down etc.  Not much overt muscular work, mild that way.  It's not muscling things around.

Considerably more 'work' on opening and relaxing, over all, not clenching etc.

 

> If I keep it retained around my chest, my heart will become very active (sometimes uncomfortably) >

 

That's the danger for that space.

[dwai]

Inhale:retention:exhale:retention ratio is important too. What is it that OP follows? 

[looschmaster]

On 5/20/2022 at 5:31 AM, Trunk said:

 

I hold the breath as low as possible.  Anywhere below the belly button; hui yin is a popular destination.

I don't do much pushing, pulling, clamping down etc.  Not much overt muscular work, mild that way.  It's not muscling things around.

Considerably more 'work' on opening and relaxing, over all, not clenching etc.

 

> If I keep it retained around my chest, my heart will become very active (sometimes uncomfortably) >

 

That's the danger for that space.

Thanks for the info. Could you describe the kind of sensations you feel when performing this breathwork? If you focus on opening/relaxing, do the sensations just come spontaneously? And what kind of dangers are there with this?

[Trunk]

14 hours ago, looschmaster said:

Thanks for the info. Could you describe the kind of sensations you feel when performing this breathwork? If you focus on opening/relaxing, do the sensations just come spontaneously? And what kind of dangers are there with this?

 

... in any order i like ...

 

Just as a reminder (at least for myself), I'm talkin' about any approach that:

extremely generally

- brings the breath low into the abdomen

- with the addition of focused steadied awareness

 

The basic meditation (taught in virtually every meditation hall everywhere) of "following the breath" with one's attention is the fundamental example of the above.  (and does a lot, just with that simple method)

 

variation of holding the breath

- relaxing around the hold (without losing focus)

- only holding for as long as relaxing is sustainable (not tensing, not straining)

 

"And what kind of dangers are there with this?"

 

Well, this sort of approach is designed to avoid the typical dangers:

1. The higher centers are *much* easier to open; the lower (solar plexus down) are notoriously difficult (unless you made it through puberty~adolescence with no major tangles and developed efficiently vis-a-vis natural structure).  Some of the major religions, as a result, just shun the lower centers and shoot for the heart ~ crown, but if that higher opening happens it can create a semi-disconnect a disharmony non-optimal integration with the lower vs upper.  (Please excuse the stream of thoughts poor grammar).  For people for whom the lower centers have integrated well through their phases of life, this might be a total non-issue.

 

And once you've "tasted the sunshine of the sky" (initiation to the non-dual states), your whole body wants to integrate with that.  It's more challenging with the lower centers, but the fundamental is that God is in both heaven and earth.

 

The systems that are hip to this (Taoism is notable) train the lower center/s in a diligent detailed long term way, often as preliminary to opening the upper centers.

 

(Jeez I'm blabbling here, not sure what you even asked, lol any more lol)

 

Ok, so there is the broad concept of Kan & Li (water & fire, respectively)... basically mixing opposities, plunging fire below water and it is interpreted many different ways in different methods.

 

In this case "fire" (the upper energy) is the breath (and anything that might be carried down with it, such as the magic ingredient: *focused* *awareness*, plus any other higher-up-stuff).  so breath is plunged down as low as it can go.  Fire is plunged down into water (any of the lower energies, interpreted broadly).  This makes water more supple and kind (less stubborn, less adamant), more nourishing harmonious for health or whatever.  It's a basic principle & step (underlying many methods) that integrate upper & lower (both above/below the diaphragm as well as the larger heaven ~ man ~ earth integration).

 

Ok, so that's one danger, that this basic approach avoids.

However,

 

2. I'd say that *any* approach brought to extreme is dangerous.

So, again (man, this sounds like a con or an ad for something, lol) ... the advice (in this approach, and in general in qigong):

- don't max out.  This is not pushups, not weight lifting, the kinesthetic rules are different.  70% is the typical safetey rule people say around here.

 

Damo Mitchell has a pretty interesting variation on this idea in his recently posted "stilling the jing" method:

 

 

I'm typed out.  Kinda got on a groove, not sure if that's all relevant to what you asked.

I'll go back and review your questions again later, remind myself what I've missed.

 

- Keith

[looschmaster]

1 hour ago, Trunk said:

I'm typed out.  Kinda got on a groove, not sure if that's all relevant to what you asked.

I'll go back and review your questions again later, remind myself what I've missed.

Lol no worries, thanks very much for the response. I appreciate any help or knowledge I can get! There were two questions you didn't answer, though, and feel free not to answer, but they were: what sensations do you feel during your meditation, and do they come naturally, or do you attempt to force/manipulate them?

[Trunk]

3 hours ago, looschmaster said:

what sensations do you feel during your meditation, and do they come naturally, or do you attempt to force/manipulate them?

 

In this kind of (mild) breath retention, I feel lower energies that are maybe a bit dense (adamant, maybe a little stuck) become more pliable, more 'kind', cooler.

Those feelings happen spontaneously, as a result of the method.  Feelings are not imagined nor asserted.  Only being present and doing the breathing.

[looschmaster]

1 hour ago, Trunk said:

 

In this kind of (mild) breath retention, I feel lower energies that are maybe a bit dense (adamant, maybe a little stuck) become more pliable, more 'kind', cooler.

Those feelings happen spontaneously, as a result of the method.  Feelings are not imagined nor asserted.  Only being present and doing the breathing.

Oh ok, I see. Could you elaborate more on "dense" energies becoming "softer?" What does that feel like? Is it heat, or vibration, or just a kind of pressure loosening?

[Trunk]

13 hours ago, looschmaster said:

Oh ok, I see. Could you elaborate more on ...

 

At this point, it just comes down to experience.

I suggest that you experiment with any method along these lines (any very moderate approach to holding breath in the lower regions with focused relaxation).

cheers,

Keith

[old3bob]

Are you under a qualified teacher?  It doesn't sound like anyone here has asked that simple but important question, (granted giving some good tips is one thing but not the same as a teacher in person)  and your questions here indicate that the answer is no.  

Edited June 18, 2022 by old3bob

[Niyamāgraha]

@Trunk Hey good video.

What does he say here at 15:54? "I'm going to bring the hands down to ______."

And then, as his hands are lowered, are they touching the torso/abdomen, or simply resting on the legs/feet?

[Mango]

I wouldn't be wasting my time worrying about where to place my hands during breathing. The position of the hands has nothing to do with my internal breathing. Expanding the belly only allows more volume for the lung to hold more air(oxygen) to its full capacity than before. I would pay more attention to breathing. I don't know what breath retention is all about. In Qigong, one should never hold one breath but just breathe slowly in and out with no hesitation. So, there will be one smooth flow and no interruption in the breathing process. BTW Holding your breath will cause suffocation. A good breathing method is trying to inhale very very slowly allowing the air to go into the lungs, little by little, to keep the breathing process active. This is the proper way to breathe, in Qigong, without holding your breath.

[Mandrake]

20 hours ago, Mango said:

I wouldn't be wasting my time worrying about where to place my hands during breathing. The position of the hands has nothing to do with my internal breathing. Expanding the belly only allows more volume for the lung to hold more air(oxygen) to its full capacity than before. I would pay more attention to breathing. I don't know what breath retention is all about. In Qigong, one should never hold one breath but just breathe slowly in and out with no hesitation. So, there will be one smooth flow and no interruption in the breathing process. BTW Holding your breath will cause suffocation. A good breathing method is trying to inhale very very slowly allowing the air to go into the lungs, little by little, to keep the breathing process active. This is the proper way to breathe, in Qigong, without holding your breath.

 

Depending on the type of and school of kumbhaka, hand and arm placements do matter.
Qigong is irrelevant as this is the Hindu discussion subforum. Different principles, different techniques.

 

 

M 

[Mango]

2 hours ago, Mandrake said:

 

Depending on the type of and school of kumbhaka, hand and arm placements do matter.
Qigong is irrelevant as this is the Hindu discussion subforum. Different principles, different techniques.

 

 

M 

Yes, I agree that different school has different principles and techniques. However, when breathing techniques were mentioned, Qigong is relevant. Taoists and Buddhists do perform such practices. If you believe that it is irrelevant, then I surrender. 

[liminal_luke]

Taoist practice is a wide field supporting more than one species of wild flower, to say nothing of the many brambles and shrubs, a few awesome oaks.  Among the flora, breath retention does indeed have a place.

[Cobie]

On 06/10/2022 at 10:51 PM, Mango said:

… Holding your breath will cause suffocation. …

Enough said.

[Master Logray]

15 hours ago, Mandrake said:

 

Depending on the type of and school of kumbhaka, hand and arm placements do matter.
Qigong is irrelevant as this is the Hindu discussion subforum. Different principles, different techniques.

 

M 

 

Indeed, it is not safe to use another system's principles and terms to explain another system, especially when it is not well documented and in secrecy and another language.   But traditionally Taoist books did make use of many Buddhist terms.  It is alright to do research and comparison, but I feel uneasy to mix practice when actually doing the work.

[Mango]

6 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Indeed, it is not safe to use another system's principles and terms to explain another system, especially when it is not well documented and in secrecy and another language.   But traditionally Taoist books did make use of many Buddhist terms.  It is alright to do research and comparison, but I feel uneasy to mix practice when actually doing the work.

Indeed, the description of words might be different but our physical bodies behave the same biologically. There are lots of things that were understood by the given. It doesn't have to be documented to lock ourselves in a boundary.

[Mango]

On 5/19/2022 at 7:15 AM, Niyamāgraha said:

just getting knocked out from too much breathing.

Carry on folks, no samadhi as of yet.

It seems like your breathing rhythm was out of sync due to too much air in your respiratory system that you weren't accustomed to.
How long have you been doing the practice? How deep did your breath go? Was it to the chest or deep down to your belly?

Edited October 8, 2022 by Mango

[oldishstuckguy]

On 6/14/2022 at 3:25 PM, Trunk said:

 

... in any order i like ...

 

Just as a reminder (at least for myself), I'm talkin' about any approach that:

extremely generally

- brings the breath low into the abdomen

- with the addition of focused steadied awareness

 

The basic meditation (taught in virtually every meditation hall everywhere) of "following the breath" with one's attention is the fundamental example of the above.  (and does a lot, just with that simple method)

 

variation of holding the breath

- relaxing around the hold (without losing focus)

- only holding for as long as relaxing is sustainable (not tensing, not straining)

 

"And what kind of dangers are there with this?"

 

Well, this sort of approach is designed to avoid the typical dangers:

1. The higher centers are *much* easier to open; the lower (solar plexus down) are notoriously difficult (unless you made it through puberty~adolescence with no major tangles and developed efficiently vis-a-vis natural structure).  Some of the major religions, as a result, just shun the lower centers and shoot for the heart ~ crown, but if that higher opening happens it can create a semi-disconnect a disharmony non-optimal integration with the lower vs upper.  (Please excuse the stream of thoughts poor grammar).  For people for whom the lower centers have integrated well through their phases of life, this might be a total non-issue.

 

And once you've "tasted the sunshine of the sky" (initiation to the non-dual states), your whole body wants to integrate with that.  It's more challenging with the lower centers, but the fundamental is that God is in both heaven and earth.

 

The systems that are hip to this (Taoism is notable) train the lower center/s in a diligent detailed long term way, often as preliminary to opening the upper centers.

 

(Jeez I'm blabbling here, not sure what you even asked, lol any more lol)

 

Ok, so there is the broad concept of Kan & Li (water & fire, respectively)... basically mixing opposities, plunging fire below water and it is interpreted many different ways in different methods.

 

In this case "fire" (the upper energy) is the breath (and anything that might be carried down with it, such as the magic ingredient: *focused* *awareness*, plus any other higher-up-stuff).  so breath is plunged down as low as it can go.  Fire is plunged down into water (any of the lower energies, interpreted broadly).  This makes water more supple and kind (less stubborn, less adamant), more nourishing harmonious for health or whatever.  It's a basic principle & step (underlying many methods) that integrate upper & lower (both above/below the diaphragm as well as the larger heaven ~ man ~ earth integration).

 

Ok, so that's one danger, that this basic approach avoids.

However,

 

2. I'd say that *any* approach brought to extreme is dangerous.

So, again (man, this sounds like a con or an ad for something, lol) ... the advice (in this approach, and in general in qigong):

- don't max out.  This is not pushups, not weight lifting, the kinesthetic rules are different.  70% is the typical safetey rule people say around here.

 

Damo Mitchell has a pretty interesting variation on this idea in his recently posted "stilling the jing" method:

 

 

I'm typed out.  Kinda got on a groove, not sure if that's all relevant to what you asked.

I'll go back and review your questions again later, remind myself what I've missed.

 

- Keith

 

new guy here. just browsing and looking for so,e direction for me. I focused in on the breath work comments.

That was helpful, I have run across it before, it just never stuck in my mind.

I think I need to do some reading on the topic. your advice of basically be gentle is a good idea i think, you quoted others mentioning 70% but I get the idea.