What exactly is neidan/internal alchemy?

[Zhongyongdaoist]

Really Taoist Texts?  This is a new low:

 

13 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

(of course in neidan the detached mind has a secret energetic meaning but thats the next step in understanding why it is important)

 

(a note on Numinous Mind in Neiye: this expression comes from the incorrect translation quoted above.

On 11/28/2022 at 11:45 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:

There is a numinous [mind] naturally residing within [有神自在身]; (tr. Roth 1999: 70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neiye#Basic_concepts

 

But there is no such expression in the original which just says 神 'shen' (spirit) which is something quite different.)

 

In a section titled "Technical Terminology", Roth takes a little over a page to explain the reason why he translates:shen as numen:

 

Quote

The shen, often translated as "spirit/spiritual" (noun/stative verb) and, following Willard Peterson, previously translated as "numen/numinous" (meaning a divinity or spirit), is, for the Inward Training authors, used to identify a foundational layer of mystical awareness that lies within human beings.  (Roth, Original Tao, p. 43, emphasis mine, ZYD)

 

Roth's explanation continues on to page 44.  I can post the rest of this if anyone cares to see it, but a simple bit of investigation on your part, such as checking out the Wikipedia article on Numen, where you could have read, 'Cicero writes of a "divine mind" (divina mens), a god "whose numen everything obeys,"' right in the first paragraph and you might spared yourself some embarrassment.  It's gaffs like this that make me question your competence.  Comparing the Numen article to the Shen article reveals a lot of conceptual similarity which to my mind strongly reinforces the aptness of Roth's translation, which had already been adequately explained in his own discussion.  I have other things to do and was taking a little break from this discussion, I will probably not post in it, or reply to posts, until sometime next week.

 

ZYD

[MetaDao]

22 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Have you read the Chinese version of Neidan? Without the special technique of breathing, Neidan cannot be accomplished. However, without the special breathing technique, breath will not and cannot change automatically when certain stages are reached.

That’s not true lol

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I agree Shen(神) can be translated in an ordinary way . However, esoterically, an ordinary person cannot translate those terms the same way as a Chinese Taoist would.

[ChiDragon]

3 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

That’s not true lol

 Please show justification.

[MetaDao]

8 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 Please show justification.

The justification is that at a certain stage breathing stops entirely. This requires no breathing method to achieve.

 

I don’t know where you are getting your neidan knowledge but it’s clear you don’t have a teacher. Why are you people posting here nonstop, quoting translations as if you know things? Just let yourself be guided by those who actually understand what they are talking about.

 

If you don’t have an authentic Neidan teacher, you cannot start teaching on here. I am telling you that yes, there are breathing methods in certain lineages but they are not required in the slightest to reach the elixir. The elixir can be reached without any guided intention of the breath. Certain traditions use guided intention of the breath to stabilize breathing qualities. That’s a different method for similar results. When you use blanket statements like Neidan requires the use of guided breathing, you are contradicting basic facts and becoming deluded.
 

Just because you can read Chinese texts about Neidan or Daoism does not mean you know anything about the practice. You must forget all of what you think you know and just find a teacher with the right methods. It’s that simple. Many of those texts have inaccuracies. I can’t explain it, other than it must be the fate of some of you to just parrot texts on here without ever striving for the actual methods

Edited December 3, 2022 by MetaDao

[ChiDragon]

25 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

The justification is that at a certain stage breathing stops entirely. This requires no breathing method to achieve.

 

I don’t know where you are getting your neidan knowledge but it’s clear you don’t have a teacher. Why are you people posting here nonstop, quoting translations as if you know things? Just let yourself be guided by those who actually understand what they are talking about.

"內丹術是道教一種重要的修煉方法，現在一般視為道教氣功（道家多稱「煉氣術」）的一種。內丹術指以「人身是一小天地」的「天人合一」、「天人相應」思想為理論，進行性命的修煉，以人身為鼎爐，修煉「精、氣、神」等而達成強身健體、提高人體的生命功能、延長壽命、乃至成仙、長生不老之目的。"
Ref: https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/内丹术

"煉氣是道教徒日常修持的重要內容之一，就是以持久地鍛煉導引和呼吸(breathing)，融會天地之精氣於自身，祛除疾病，長生成仙。 "
Ref: https://zh.daoinfo.org/wiki/煉氣

Edited December 3, 2022 by ChiDragon

[MetaDao]

38 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

"內丹術是道教一種重要的修煉方法，現在一般視為道教氣功（道家多稱「煉氣術」）的一種。內丹術指以「人身是一小天地」的「天人合一」、「天人相應」思想為理論，進行性命的修煉，以人身為鼎爐，修煉「精、氣、神」等而達成強身健體、提高人體的生命功能、延長壽命、乃至成仙、長生不老之目的。"
Ref: https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/内丹术

"煉氣是道教徒日常修持的重要內容之一，就是以持久地鍛煉導引和呼吸(breathing)，融會天地之精氣於自身，祛除疾病，長生成仙。 "
Ref: https://zh.daoinfo.org/wiki/煉氣

Now, I see why you have errors in your understanding

 

Those articles and texts have tons of inaccuracies. Just find a teacher with the methods. Follow them. Then you will have the discernment to tell what is true vs what is false.
 

Not trying to be rude, but people who write things like this often do not even have methods and all they are really doing is spreading misinformation

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Where did you get this notion about neidan?

from the fount of all knowledge of course

Quote

 

 it was first recorded in the 559 vow taken by Tiantai Buddhist patriarch Nanyue Huisi praying to successfully make an elixir that would keep him alive until the coming of Maitreya 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neidan#Terminology

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Really Taoist Texts?  This is a new low:. you might spared yourself some embarrassment.  It's gaffs like this that make me question your competence.

1 hour ago, Zhongyongdaoist said:

Roth takes a little over a page to explain the reason why he translates:shen as numen:

I totally trust you that he does

then he turns around and says it is mind in brackets. all i am saying is that mind is not spirit 神 . thats all.

 

Quote

 

There is a numinous [mind] naturally residing within [有神自在身]; (tr. Roth 1999: 70)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neiye#Basic_concepts

 

 

[mrpasserby]

Sorry I was off topic .

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by mrpasserby
over share

[GuiKang]

On 09/11/2022 at 7:18 PM, MetaDao said:

 

 

Anyone below the Di Xian level teaching 'Neidan' or 'Alchemy' is a fraud.

 

Damo Mitchell, Nathan Brine, Jerry Alan Johnson. All are frauds with no true high-level attainments.

 

Sure, they have skill in Meditation, Magick, Qigong, Neigong, and Martial Arts.

 

However, they are far from masters. If they claim to teach Neidan in its entirety up to the elixir, they are lying. It is evident for those who can see, that they still have a ways to go. It would be more accurate if they called themselves beginners.

 

It is not my job to convince you of anything. The truth is evident if you have the heart to listen.

 

Each of these public ‘masters’ has built a business model centered around online learning and retreats with a massive amount of public students, raking them in dough.

 

However you want to rationalize it, these teachers are simply fraudsters putting on a masquerade of helping people, when in actuality, they are simply deluding themselves. The reason they have done this is to fuel their own practice. How do they gain money to travel and do all the things necessary for their practice in a retreat setting? Through their online business model. No one can teach a thousand students. Theirs is a natural weeding down of students and passing off of students to lesser teachers, which is funny because the head of the school hasn’t even formed the elixir. The head of the school will have a close, tight-knit group of actual students they teach the closed-door teachings too, and then, you finally realize the master of the school hasn’t reached the level of the elixir and cannot lead you to the same place.

 

True, authentic Daoist lineages only allow teachers to pass on methods once they have attained the elixir. This is the way it has been done traditionally and how it should continue to be done. Anything else is deluded and nonsensical. Sure, do your qigong and Neigong retreats and earn your money off your students but do not market yourself as a Neidan master until you’ve achieved the elixir. 
 

I am not a master. I am a beginner. But, I recognize the flaws of these public figures for what they are. It is not the way spiritual practices should be passed along. If these public figures were truly so magnanimous and generous, they would make all their open-door teachings free to the general public. You know why they don’t? They are selfish and greedy. Jesus would condemn them the same why I am. It’s a sham. 
 

 

 

well said brother.

 

Especially true for Damo and  Nathan, they teach neidan while they have not reach dixian or anything close to that.

They will never even reach renxian by doing those post natal work. what a fraud !

 

I feel sorry for some folks that can fall for their marketing gimmicks and yet still thinking they are learning Neidan.

 

Yes, you can learn some meditations etc but it's definitely not Neidan course or perhaps should never called it Neidan in the first place. 

 

However, for JAJ - He used to teach Daoist Mysticism and now been passed down to some of his senior students and the class is to becoming daoist priest in their lineage.

and This is not a Neidan class and mostly the method only post natal work.

 

 

[Master Logray]

16 hours ago, GuiKang said:

well said brother.

 

Especially true for Damo and  Nathan, they teach neidan while they have not reach dixian or anything close to that.

They will never even reach renxian by doing those post natal work. what a fraud !

 

I feel sorry for some folks that can fall for their marketing gimmicks and yet still thinking they are learning Neidan.

 

Yes, you can learn some meditations etc but it's definitely not Neidan course or perhaps should never called it Neidan in the first place. 

 

However, for JAJ - He used to teach Daoist Mysticism and now been passed down to some of his senior students and the class is to becoming daoist priest in their lineage.

and This is not a Neidan class and mostly the method only post natal work.

 

 

 

That post was in 2022.   All these teachers are not immortals of any degree but we cannot discount their value.   We don't need Einstein to teach kindergarten or primary school.    There are always teachers to teach the basics.  And the basics attract most students. 

 

I am not sure they never teach Neidan, but perhaps an elementary level?   Purely teaching Neidan is not working as progress takes ages.   How do you charge for that in the modern context - a student paying for 5 years and nothing has ever happened ?

 

 

[GuiKang]

9 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

That post was in 2022.   All these teachers are not immortals of any degree but we cannot discount their value.   We don't need Einstein to teach kindergarten or primary school.    There are always teachers to teach the basics.  And the basics attract most students. 

 

I am not sure they never teach Neidan, but perhaps an elementary level?   Purely teaching Neidan is not working as progress takes ages.   How do you charge for that in the modern context - a student paying for 5 years and nothing has ever happened ?

 

 

yes. but do not label it as "Neidan" course.

If it's not then its not.

the message is : do not scam people.

 

surely it will help people with that kind of training to certain degree.

 

Like I mentioned above, JAJ did not label it as Neidan but daoist mysticism which not mislead people.

 

 

 

[johndoe2012]

. 

Edited yesterday at 10:28 AM by johndoe2012

[johndoe2012]

We have access to authentic Bak Fu Pai arts like Flying Phoenix Heavenly Healing Qigong and Bak Fu Sunn Yee Gong internal alchemy.

 

Everyone should consider themselves extremely lucky if they start practicing these arts instead of studying books etc. 

[Master Logray]

On 3/10/2025 at 6:46 AM, GuiKang said:

yes. but do not label it as "Neidan" course.

If it's not then its not.

the message is : do not scam people.

 

surely it will help people with that kind of training to certain degree.

 

Like I mentioned above, JAJ did not label it as Neidan but daoist mysticism which not mislead people.

 

 

A member posted Damo's course details, there was no Neidan then.  But Neidan theory and history are also Neidan, right?   Neidan practical can be very elementary like staring at something. 

[silent thunder]

Are you perhaps assuming said person posted every detail of every one of Damo's teachings?  He's from a very deep lineage, that would have been some post.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

16 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Are you perhaps assuming said person posted every detail of every one of Damo's teachings?  He's from a very deep lineage, that would have been some post.

What lineage is he from out of curiousity?

[Antares]

31 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

What lineage is he from out of curiousity?

Some people say he represents Longmen. But Longmen is very broad, starting from quiet sitting methods that one can find in books. Thus, even if you just practice the quiet sitting method, you are a Longmen man. I just had a look at his book and read his recommendation to concentrate on the area just above the anus to open up the dantian. Yes, it can be very deep… anus neigong, maybe.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

39 minutes ago, Antares said:

Some people say he represents Longmen. But Longmen is very broad, starting from quiet sitting methods that one can find in books. Thus, even if you just practice the quiet sitting method, you are a Longmen man. I just had a look at his book and read his recommendation to concentrate on the area just above the anus to open up the dantian. Yes, it can be very deep… anus neigong, maybe.

No, I mean what lineage is he initiated into and allowed to teach from? 

[Antares]

15 minutes ago, -ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ- said:

No, I mean what lineage is he initiated into and allowed to teach from?

 

56 minutes ago, Antares said:

Some people say he represents Longmen.

 

[Neirong]

5 hours ago, Antares said:

he represents Longmen. But Longmen is very broad

Ah yes, a "very deep lineage" like Longmenpai, the one that the Chinese government has actively promoted for many years, labeling nearly every Daoist organization with it. The majority of Taoists today are affiliated with Longmenpai or Quanzhen.

However, there is no available information about rigorous exams, testing, or any formal qualifications that these individuals might possess. In fact, anyone could buy a ticket to China, take a photo with a random person dressed as a Taoist, and claim to represent a "deep lineage."
 

This is likely what we are seeing here.
 

In essence, it is a religious structure managed by the government, with no real connection to esoteric internal cultivation or spiritual awakening. Does anyone think a person like that would ever be accepted in Internal esoteric circles?
 

There is absolutely no testing, verification, or credible evidence to suggest that Damo belongs to an ancient "Esoteric Taoist tradition" or possesses any sort of attainment within it.
 

That said, there are some general ethical guidelines available to the public related to Longmenpai/Quanzhen.
 

Quote

Longmenpai practitioners are expected to adhere to strict ethical and disciplinary guidelines, which generally prohibit the consumption of alcohol and smoking. These rules are part of the broader Quanzhen Daoist monastic code, which emphasizes self-cultivation, purity, and discipline.

 

This does not align well with sitting in a bar, smoking expensive cigars, drinking whiskey, doing drugs, scamming, and engaging in many other glorious activities of the modern guru.

[Cobie]

On 03/12/2022 at 9:52 PM, Taoist Texts said:

 … mind is not spirit 神 …

I agree.

 

申 shen1 - original form of 電／电 (diàn, “lightning”).

The ancients feared the unpredictable lightning and considered it to be divine or of divine origin. 

礻(示) shi4 - was added for specialization.

(Wiktionary)

 

 

Edited March 15 by Cobie